A New Member with a LOT of Questions!?

[-Kiku-]

Hi, Cambertree. I know about the Tattoo. It's the one with the beautiful dragonfly and bamboo drawn on a stainless steel jacket. But if I remember correctly, the blade of Tattoo is available only in VG-10. I wish I could swap out the default green jacket on a Dragonfly 2 with that of the Tattoo, but learned later that there is no easy way to switch.

I'll wait and see if that sharpness of the thumb-hole's edge will be a problem. If it continues to bother me, I will try using some sandpaper as suggested. But will ordinary sandpaper work? ZDP189's HRC rating is high, no? Around 65, I think. Not sure if ordinary sandpaper will have much effect.

A question: In a folded position, my Dragonfly 2 blade sits off-center by about 0.5 mm. This may not sound like much, but considering the distance between the inside of the jacket is only about 2.5 mm, the 'misalignment' is quite noticeable. Is there an easy fix for this problem?

Here's the 2nd knife that will be arriving next week:
https://twitter.com/KikuAkatsuki/status ... 00/photo/1
https://twitter.com/KikuAkatsuki/status ... 00/photo/2
https://twitter.com/KikuAkatsuki/status ... 00/photo/3
https://twitter.com/KikuAkatsuki/status ... 00/photo/4

[Sumdumguy]

I'm like a raccoon, with mah shiny stuff...

[JuPaul]

Absolutely! Happy to help with any KME questions. The dragonfly salt was one of my first spydercos, and it is still one of my favorites. In fact I'm carrying the dragonfly hawkbill today. Zdp-189 can be challenging to sharpen, too, but if you get a KME and you're a little patient I think you'll be fine. And it'll definitely hold an edge a long time. Good choice! The zdp Delica might be good for you, too. And both have a back lock, which is incredibly strong and has a bias to close, so it's highly unlikely they'd ever open in your pocket or purse.

Have you seen Wicked Edge Generation 3 Pro?
https://wickededgeusa.com/products/gene ... 2017-model

It's pricey, but it's supposed to be one of the best on the market right now, far superior to KME design.
I'm thinking about getting one for myself this holiday season.

My Spyderco Dragonfly 2 ZDP-189 arrived today. The blade is MUCH BIGGER than I thought. The blade portion alone is bigger than my thumb! And the handle fits perfectly in my hand (I really do have small hands.)

I am impressed with the overall design and quality of this knife. It was a solid choice for my 1st blade in my knife collection.

I look forward to my 2nd knife arriving in the mail sometime next week.


p.s. One small gripe about the Dragonfly 2 ZDP-189: The edge of the thumb hole or whatever it is called (the hole on the blade) is awfully sharp. So sharp that I'm afraid that I might cut my thumb when I push on the hole to open the blade.

The Wiked Edge systems do look nice! They're more than I'd like to spend for my personal needs, but if I was sharpening for lots of other people as well I'd consider one. It's all about deciding what will be best for you, and there are tons of people out there that love Wiked Edge.

As Cambertree mentioned, sandpaper can smooth out that sharp edge for you.

Enjoy your excellent Dragonfly!

[Cambertree]

Hi, Cambertree. I know about the Tattoo. It's the one with the beautiful dragonfly and bamboo drawn on a stainless steel jacket. But if I remember correctly, the blade of Tattoo is available only in VG-10. I wish I could swap out the default green jacket on a Dragonfly 2 with that of the Tattoo, but learned later that there is no easy way to switch.

I'll wait and see if that sharpness of the thumb-hole's edge will be a problem. If it continues to bother me, I will try using some sandpaper as suggested. But will ordinary sandpaper work? ZDP189's HRC rating is high, no? Around 65, I think. Not sure if ordinary sandpaper will have much effect.

A question: In a folded position, my Dragonfly 2 blade sits off-center by about 0.5 mm. This may not sound like much, but considering the distance between the inside of the jacket is only about 2.5 mm, the 'misalignment' is quite noticeable. Is there an easy fix for this problem?

Here's the 2nd knife that will be arriving next week:
https://twitter.com/KikuAkatsuki/status ... 00/photo/1
https://twitter.com/KikuAkatsuki/status ... 00/photo/2
https://twitter.com/KikuAkatsuki/status ... 00/photo/3
https://twitter.com/KikuAkatsuki/status ... 00/photo/4

Hi Kiku. :)

Have you tried VG10? It’s an excellent steel, and if you are just starting out in your knife journey, I’d really recommend trying it. I have a few different knife steels - maybe 20 or 30 different grades - including Maxamet and S110V, which you mentioned earlier, and I still enjoy VG10 a lot in both my folding knives and kitchen knives.

Every now and then, someone will start a thread asking people about their favourite steels, and the answers are certainly not uniformly in the ‘highest wear resistance steels camp’.

Here are a couple of recent ones:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83474

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83074

People often get fixated on metrics like wear resistance, alloy volume and Rockwell C hardness, when there’s quite a bit more than just those factors at play in making a good bladesteel.

To give an example, VG10 is tougher than ZDP189, quicker to sharpen, has better edge stability, polishes easier, is more corrosion resistant, and will take thinner, more acute edges. Now I like ZDP189 a lot, but I’m just saying there’s a bit more to the story than some simplistic steel ranking lists on the ‘net would have you believe.

Larrin Thomas’s work is a good starting point to start delving into the technical aspects of knife steels and performance, and one aspect of his research which is quite fascinating, is how edge geometry plays a very large role in knife performance and edge retention. Often this factor is larger than the difference between different steel grades.

Cliff Stamp did some experiments on the effect of microbevel angles on edge retention, and found that simply sharpening a VG10 microbevel 2 1/2 degrees more acutely than an S30V microbevel, produced the same edge retention. When you also factor in the easy sharpening nature of VG10, I know which steel of the two I’d prefer.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by ‘ordinary sandpaper’. Sandpaper made for timber is not recommended. Most wet’n’dry sandpaper (which is designed for metals) will be comprised of alumina or silicon carbide abrasive particles. Both of those abrasives will cut ZDP189 with no issues.

Higher quality sandpaper is generally worth buying over the cheap stuff.

I’d guess that the ZDP189 Dragonflies are actually run in the 62-64 Rc range.

In my experience, blade centering is actually a function of the screw tension on the knife, rather than some inherent flaw.

David/Evil D has some good tips on how to adjust the blade centering on your knife if it bothers you.

Check this thread out:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86940

That’s a nice looking second knife you got as well. :cool:

Watch out, the rabbit hole goes deep!

[-Kiku-]

@Cambertree: Thank you for the detailed and informative response! I don't know Larrin Thomas nor Cliff Stamp. But I'm always for learning new stuff so I will try to catch up on their work later this week.

I only know a bit about VG-10. I think my Shun knives are made of those. When it comes to non-cutlery knives, however, my personal preference is towards exotic stainless steels that I've yet to own. So far, my non-cutlery knives are:

1. Spyderco Dragonfly 2 - ZDP189
2. Borka Blades Srambit - Bohler M390

3. Probably a custom blade made out of ELMAX
4. Probably Maxamet, CPM S110V, or YXR7

My eventual goal is to own one of each high-end super steels.
Big knives generally scare me so I'll be focusing on blades of lengths below 4.5".

A few years back as a graduate student, I used to grind and mirror-polish cross sections of various thermocycled SAC alloys for electron microscopy. So I am not new to grinding and polishing. But I am new to grinding and polishing knives. I would think that both are very much alike, with the knives being only slightly more difficult due to the added dimension of grinding angle.

I am not at all concerned about the difficulty of grinding/polishing alloys of high hardness. That's what diamond compounds are for.

[Evil D]

1. Folders are just more accessible and easier to live with than fixed blades for many people. A lot of these fancy folders border on the line between "gent's knife" and EDC knife. As for folding the knife onto your fingers, that's definitely a possibility but it depends strongly on the lock and the brand and how well they make their locks. Some of us have done some pretty stupid cutting tasks with our Spydercos and haven't had a lock fail yet. For the uses you mentioned I don't think you have anything to worry about with any of Spyderco's locks.

2. Mirror polishing any metal can be time consuming especially if you've never done it. I would suggest looking to see if there's anyone local that does professional polishing, it's a bit of an art form to do properly IMO. Otherwise, the name of the game is grit progression and sanding out all of the scratches from the previous grit...then repeat the process with the next grit until you're there. With a steel like Maxamet/S110V you'll probably need more than a day..

3. Kinda depends. You can probably do most of the polishing with the same bench stones that you could also sharpen on, IF bench stones are how you choose to sharpen and IF the blade is all flat grinds (meaning, polishing out the curve of a hollow grind with a flat bench stone is probably impossible). What you choose to sharpen on is a whole other topic altogether so I would personally just go with some quality sandpaper for polishing and then choose my sharpening setup separately.

4. I'm pretty sure they shoot for 30 inclusive on all their knives but there still seems to be some variations in what they ultimately end up being. As for the KME, lots of people like it but I personally wouldn't buy another clamp based sharpener, much less one that costs that much. My setup is an Edge Pro with Congress Moldmaster stones for reprofiling, and a Sharpmaker for serrations and keeping all my knives sharp. I'm pretty sure you can get all of what I use for less than that KME except maybe the CBN/diamond rods for the Sharpmaker.

[Cambertree]

@Cambertree: Thank you for the detailed and informative response! I don't know Larrin Thomas nor Cliff Stamp. But I'm always for learning new stuff so I will try to catch up on their work later this week.

I only know a bit about VG-10. I think my Shun knives are made of those. When it comes to non-cutlery knives, however, my personal preference is towards exotic stainless steels that I've yet to own. So far, my non-cutlery knives are:

1. Spyderco Dragonfly 2 - ZDP189
2. Borka Blades Srambit - Bohler M390

3. Probably a custom blade made out of ELMAX
4. Probably Maxamet, CPM S110V, or YXR7

My eventual goal is to own one of each high-end super steels.
Big knives generally scare me so I'll be focusing on blades of lengths below 4.5".

A few years back as a graduate student, I used to grind and mirror-polish cross sections of various thermocycled SAC alloys for electron microscopy. So I am not new to grinding and polishing. But I am new to grinding and polishing knives. I would think that both are very much alike, with the knives being only slightly more difficult due to the added dimension of grinding angle.

I am not at all concerned about the difficulty of grinding/polishing alloys of high hardness. That's what diamond compounds are for.

No worries, Kiku. :)

Larrin’s website is a great source of info, and he has also just published a book, Knife Engineering, which is also highly recommended.

https://knifesteelnerds.com

Cliff Stamp is not so active in the knife scene anymore, but he has a good library of Youtube material and a web forum called Towards 0.1 Micron. He also has a pretty funny, sardonic sense of humour.

Thanks for the bit of background too. It helps to tailor the information that might be useful to you.

Yeah, I like developing my own ‘reference archive’ of different steels too.

A couple of comments on mirror polishing. I’d probably start with M390 or ZDP189, if you like those steels. They have mainly chromium carbides and will probably reward you with a better finish than steels with a lot of vanadium carbide like S110V and Maxamet.

One difference between polishing metallographic samples and knives is knives will get scratched up pretty quick from use. Also, non stainless tool steels will develop a patina from use that will cloud the polish pretty quickly.

Don’t let that stop you though. I’d be very interested to see the results of your efforts, given you have some experience and training in that skill set.

Yeah, diamond pastes or emulsions are the way to go. Use light pressure on those high carbide steels to avoid that ‘orange peel’ surface texture. VG10 and D2 are well known for displaying this type of surface patterning when taken to a high polish. Use an asterisk type sequence of strokes - work on one axis for a while, then change direction etc.

Here’s a quick pic of a S110V and a Maxamet knife. I don’t really polish the flats, but I do strop them on a diamond emulsion charged piece of leather, to smooth the grinding striations on the surface out a bit.



I wasn’t intentionally trying to attain a reflective polish, I was just refining the edge on a sequence of diamond stones and strops.

The S110V UKPK turned out shiny enough. I think Maxamet would be quite a challenge to achieve a true mirror polish on.

[-Kiku-]

Hi, Cambertree.

You have a semi-decent polish on the edge of your S110V, but I see numerous scratch marks. Has that knife been through lot of use since your last polish? I wondering where/how you got all those scratches on your blade. I haven't had any experience with S110V yet, but I am under the impression that they're hard to scratch.

[-Kiku-]

My Borka Blades SRambit arrived in the mail today.

For a production knife, it's very well made. The blade material is M390 which means I don't have to be paranoid about keeping it clean and moisture-free all the time. Grooved notches along the spine as well as the belly-side of the handle and on the thumb ring are excellent for both forward and reverse grip. The blade geometry is that of a gigantic shark tooth, suitable for both stabbing as well as slashing motions. The spine itself is very thick at 5 mm (0.20"). I can't tell if the blade itself has a hollow or flat grind. If it's hollow, then the concavity of the grind is ever so slight that it's imperceptible to the naked eye. There's no question this blade is designed to withstand heavy and rigorous use to last a lifetime.

The very first thing I did upon opening the package was to slather the blade with some mineral oil. Using a lint-free cloth, I rubbed the blade vigorously to remove metal powder residues from the factory. Then I soaked the micarta handle in lavender-scented mineral oil and wrapped the entire knife in several layers of paper towel. I am going to let the oil dry slowly over the course of several days.

When it's all ready, I'll post some pics.

[-Kiku-]

I visited knifenerds.com but there seems to be a formatting issue with lot of the graphs and photos on their website. Here's what their graphs look like on my Google Chrome browser:

https://twitter.com/KikuAkatsuki/status ... 28/photo/1

I experienced the same issue on the Safari browser (mac user).

Another issue, but with Spyderco forum: How do I insert a picture rather than merely linking one?

[JuPaul]

I visited knifenerds.com but there seems to be a formatting issue with lot of the graphs and photos on their website. Here's what their graphs look like on my Google Chrome browser:

https://twitter.com/KikuAkatsuki/status ... 28/photo/1

I experienced the same issue on the Safari browser (mac user).

Another issue, but with Spyderco forum: How do I insert a picture rather than merely linking one?

You can directly upload a picture by hitting the "attachments" tab below the text window and then uploading your pic. But those pics have to be very small/compressed. If you want to insert a full resolution picture, you have to use a photo sharing site like Imgur.com. PM me if you need a quick tutorial on how to use imgur.

[-Kiku-]

@JuPaul: Thank you. Now I know how to upload pictures! Yay!

html formatting issue knifesteelnerds website? Most of the charts and graphs appear partially blocked.

[Cambertree]

Hi, Cambertree.

You have a semi-decent polish on the edge of your S110V, but I see numerous scratch marks. Has that knife been through lot of use since your last polish? I wondering where/how you got all those scratches on your blade. I haven't had any experience with S110V yet, but I am under the impression that they're hard to scratch.

Yes, what you’re seeing is partly foliage and leaf reflections from an outdoor photo in my yard, but mostly scratches from a couple of years of touch up sharpening on ceramic rods and diamond waterstones.

My usual first sharpening of a new knife will remove steel behind the edge and set a fairly acute bevel. Then I apply a microbevel with the Sharpmaker for durability and easy and quick resharpening.

Over time, the microbevel gets not so micro, and eventually the knife goes back to the stones for thinning out again.

Achieving a consistent high polish and shiny finish is not really an objective of mine, but more a side effect of refining the edge geometry for functional performance.

I think the Pareto principle or 80/20 rule tends to apply to polishing. If I were to continue to polish to a mirror finish, I would probably expend about 4 times more time and effort to attain a finish that has little utility for my purposes. My primary objective is simply to have a sharp working tool, which is easy and quick to resharpen. :)

[-Kiku-]

I agree that mirror polish wouldn't make much sense for EDC. But pretty soon, I hope to own a custom blade. And when I do, I am going to do my best to put a perfect mirror finish on the edge.

Your bevel appears to be very consistent on both knives. Fairly sizable bevel width also tells me you went with very acute angle. Out of curiosity, what bevel angle did you use?

[Cambertree]

I agree that mirror polish wouldn't make much sense for EDC. But pretty soon, I hope to own a custom blade. And when I do, I am going to do my best to put a perfect mirror finish on the edge.

Your bevel appears to be very consistent on both knives. Fairly sizable bevel width also tells me you went with very acute angle. Out of curiosity, what bevel angle did you use?

Cool, I’m looking forward to seeing the results of your polishing efforts.

Also, I’m quite curious to see how you will report on your experience with Maxamet.

Those edges were sharpened on benchstones, so I couldn’t tell you the exact angle. I generally raise the spine off the stone just enough, so I won’t scratch up the flats of the blade, and thin out the edge area at that angle.

Putting the knife to the Sharpmaker 15dps or 20dps setting afterwards, only contacts a tiny area near the apex, so I’d guess the angle is about 11-13 dps.

I apply a 20dps Sharpmaker microbevel on steels like S110V and Maxamet, for durability.

Lower carbide steels get a 15dps microbevel or less.

I used a sequence of Atoma diamond plates (140, 400, 600, 1200) and then went to Venev diamond waterstones at FEPA-F 1200 and 2000, before finishing on the Spyderco 3”x 8” Ultrafine benchstone. Then a light strop on 3 μm, 1 μm, 0.25 μm and 0.1 μm diamond emulsion pasted strops.

The first sharpening and bevel setting session is somewhat time consuming. I quite enjoy the process, and find it relaxing.

After that, resharpening touchups are very quick and easy - it usually takes a minute or two at most, on the Sharpmaker.

I won’t make any claims for it being the best way to sharpen, or that it produces the keenest edge possible, but it works well for me.

[Wartstein]

@JuPaul: Thank you. Now I know how to upload pictures! Yay!

Graphs.png

Here is the link to a tutorial by Vivi, should you want to upload pics in a larger size and higher resolution:
viewtopic.php?t=83968

[Cambertree]

Can’t help you on the weird formatting issue with the Knifesteelnerds site, sorry.

Did you follow my link? Maybe it’s to do with me accessing the site and sending the link from a phone?

Perhaps try typing it into Safari?

And that’s about the extent of my IT helpdesk knowledge. :D

[-Kiku-]

Mineral oils don't dry. So after soaking the knife overnight, I wiped off the excess with paper towels this morning and shot some photos.

WARNING: I never had any formal photography lessons. The following shots were made on my iPhone without proper lightings so don't expect quality photos. My apologies in advance.

Click on each photo to see the larger version.

Blade Length Comparison: SRambit (3.50"), Dragonfly 2 (2.0")

The SRambit handle is made of micarta. Looks darker than normal because it's been soaked in mineral oil. Dragonfly 2 ZDP189 has the factory default G10 handle which is supposed to be a shade of green but doesn't look like it due to poor ambient lighting.

Spine Thickness: SRambit (5.0 mm), Dragonfly 2 (2.5 mm)

Grind Profile: Appears to have saber grind with a false edge on top. If true, very unusual for Borka Blades as most have hollow grind.

Factory edge is shown here. Sharp enough to slice a paper, but not sharp enough to split hair. Note the edge bevel is wider towards the tip of the blade, implying the bevel angle is not quite as uniform along the edge length.

The notch placement on the rear of the handle is less than optimal. Needs to be placed further back towards the ring and partially on the ring itself for a more secure placement of the thumb for a reverse grip.

I still have much research to do on sharpeners and polishers before making my final decision on the brand and model.

As for my next knife, it'll probably be either a custom blade (Elmax) from a renowned designer or a production knife made of Maxamet.

At the moment, it seems Spyderco has a monopoly on Maxamet as I have yet to see other companies using this material in their lineup. Is Maxamet the name of a proprietary alloy coined by Spyderco?

[-Kiku-]

I spent the majority of this evening reading and learning about convex grind. Initially, I thought the only way to add convex grind to a blade was by free-hand using grinding stones. Then I started to wonder if convex grind is also possible using guided sharpening system, where the user can dial-in bevel angles, such as KME and Wicked Edge. So I dug further and it turns out that convex grind is very much possible with such sharpening systems.

My question to those who have/are using such sharpeners and have tried convex grind on such machines, how easy and/or convenient is it? For convex grind, wouldn't it be easier to just free-hand it?

[Mattysc42]

I have a wicked edge 2017 gen 3 pro, and I find convexing to be extremely easy on it. I apply diamond lapping films to balsa strops and sharpen like I normally would with the WE diamond plates. Jende has the best lapping films for this because they have grits starting as low as 180g up to .5 microns (last I checked), and are durable enough to not be cut when sharpening into the edge for burr minimization. This is my preferred sharpening method for Maxamet.