I gotta prolbem...

[Moose]

See my prolbem is kinda weird. I got some money and I want to buy a Pegasus for daily carry as it is small and non-offensive. And ever since the cops took away my SS Delica, my parents are all freakish about me having another pocket knife. I've expressed my opinion to them that they can not keep me from carrying a pocket knife, as I feel its my god given right to bear a pocket knife. Now I know I'm not the only person in the world who feels absoutly neekid and bare with out there knife, as it's almost like they've became part of us. Am i right? And its killing me to be with out my beloved spydies. IMO I feel its not there teritory to tread on. Does anyone else see my struggle?



"Here a Moose, there a Moose, every where a Moose Moose."

[vampyrewolf]

moose> I'm having the same prob...

I'm getting myself a cricket for my b-day. I have about 9 knives in current use, but a good stash put away. My parents figure the cops will be on me for having so many knives. I had to find the knife laws for canadian soil, and proove to them that the cops can't do anything.
They need proof of dangerous intent. Simply carrying is******to the law... a good number of cops I know carry a 4" in thier cop uniforms, or even in thier cruisers(our school cop).

Just do like me, and proove that nothing will happen by having a pocket knife. if it comes down to needing a blade, but not allowed to carry a pocket knife(ie @ school), get a multi-tool. the SpyeRench is'nt that expensive(held up to a leatherman), and has a solid build and sharp knife.
Think about it.

Audaces Fortuna Juvatthat
--the fate favors those who are daring


We all start with 10 fingers. Those with Spydies have 9 to spare, Still need a thumb. Good thing I still have 8 to spare...

[vampyrewolf]

sorry, double post...

Edited by - VampyreWolf on 3/18/2001 4:22:05 PM

[Moose]

VampyreWolf,
see the thing is in my case there kinda was dangerous intent, from cops point of view. But what really happened is that I pulled my knife in self defense, but still ended up getting arrested, and spent a couple of days in jail. Now im facing felony meancing charges. And my parents were even kind enough to go out and buy me a SpydeRench which I have now, but its just not seeming to do the trick. The courts say that im not allowed to have any knifes but what they dont know wont hurt them. I feel I had every right to pull a knife when I felt my life was in danger. Tomarrow Im going ahead and ordering a Pegasus for myself, and if my dad doesnt like it, to bad. Ill just keep it locked up untill im through with this legal bull****.

"Here a Moose, there a Moose, every where a Moose Moose."

[tique]

Moose,

I am confused about one aspect here. What is your age? If you are over 18 your dad should not be able to tell you what to do anyway, and if you are under 18, then you shouldn't be able to order a knife.

I think the issue of your Delica being confiscated was not fully explained the first time, at least not by my memory. I believe you need to have a very easliy justified reason to pull a knife on someone, and it's not something to be taken lightly. If you pulled a knife on a person, then there obviously was "dangerous intent" or else you shouldn't have done it in the first place. Self defense aside, you still pulled a deadly weapon on a person.

I think you need to work on making it clear to all involved that it was absolutely necessary to draw the knife to defend yourself from the other party, and not worry about getting another knife right now. If you cannot fully prove your life was in danger of ending at the hands of the other party, then I don't believe you should be carrying a knife.

[Moose]

tique,
I belive my reason for pulling my knife was a very justified reason. My intent was not to be dangerous or to use deadly force, but to simply to scare my alleged "attacker" off of me. I belive that day I could of very well been injured. As for my age, Im a little over 6 months shy of being 18. And I feel im ready to take on the resp. of being an adult

So your saying I should focus more on explaining my reasons rather than worrying about getting another knife?

I also took that under consideration, Im not going to say thats not a fair judgment. I figured I have a multi-tool so that'll do me untill I'm done with court and all that other BS.

"Here a Moose, there a Moose, every where a Moose Moose."

[tique]

Moose,

I understand what you are saying, however, unfortunately using a knife to scare someone away is usually looked at differently from a legal standpoint. You may want to look at the legalities of buying a knife, as most places are not allowed to sell one to someone under 18, just a thought. I'm not saying you shouldn't carry under that age, as I have carried a knife since well before I could drive, just that you might want to protect the people you are buying from.

I believe that a legal action against you should take more priority than a new knife. Simply because you shouldn't want a conviction to be on your record, and I don't think that would be a pleasant thing to go through.

[Mancer]

Hey moose, sorry to hear bout ya probs bud, but look at it this way, if they dont let you get ya knife(for defense), when u are 18 you can rather just get yourself a Glock,lol (zats the baby Ill be gettin soon)

Seeya l8tr

MaNcEr

It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

[Moose]

There's lots of ways to get around the prolbem of not being able to buy a knife if you are under 18. You can simply tell them you have parental permission, and even have a friend you know thats over 18 buy it for you, or simply walk in and if they dont mention it then assume it must be ok. Sometimes theyd rather have the sale rather than sit there and hassle with you.

As for the legal prolbems, an atterony is handling that. I have a few friends who have been in the same position as me facing the exact same charges. I'm shure I'll be able to strike a plea bargon with the DA and get off on Diverson (sp?) which is basically, if I can keep out of trobule for a year or so then the charges are wiped from my record and dropped. Or it is quite poss. that I may get probation. It all just depends what go's down in court

"Here a Moose, there a Moose, every where a Moose Moose."

[dac]

Moose, I don't know you, but I think that you should check your attitude a bit. You seem very non-chalant about having been arrested for a very serious felony. Pulling a knife on someone is not a casual thing. Legally, it is no different from pulling a gun on someone. Unless that it is very clear that you faced imminent death or serious injury, you were not justified in pulling a knife. Even if you were justified in pulling the knife, you need to ask yourself if you can make lifestyle changes that would make it much less likely for you to be in situations where you feel a need to raise confrontations to the level of deadly force. I was once eighteen and I know that what looks like a good reason for force to a young man may not look so good to a judge or a jury. Often young men find themselves in positions where they feel they need to prove their "manhood." I can say from experience that walking away makes much more sense 95% of the time. More important, learn to avoid trouble and you will live long, healthy life. As a knife lover, I take very seriously any one who uses a knife in violent manner because you could impair the ability of me and other knife lovers to carry our knives for utility. I'm sure that Sal Glesser does not want his Delica thought of as simply a weapon and not a legitimate tool like a hammer or screwdriver (which also make very formidable weapons). Moose, I'm glad you like knives, I just want you to grow up and watch you chaoices and surroundings.

[vampyrewolf]

Regarding age...

I'm not even 17 yet(my b-day is on march 21...) and I buy knives no problem. I visit with the store owner though, and because of this, he knows what kind of guy I am. I'm not about to go injure someone with his products...

Just get to know your distributer, and purchasing is no problem. He'll even order for me.

We all start with 10 fingers. Those with Spydies have 9 to spare, Still need a thumb. Good thing I still have 8 to spare...

[obi-wan]

Moose, I think you need to reflect on what happened to you and think of the steps you need to take in order to avoid further trouble. I am very alarmed to see these posts about ways to get around buying a knife if you happen to be under the legal age. It's this type of attitude that will get you in trouble and is the attitude that gives liberals a reason to condemn all knives.

[tique]

My original point on the age thing is that it is, to my knowledge, illegal for a person running a retail store to sell a knife to someone under the age of 18 in most, if not all, instances. You should have the respect to protect their business by not breaking this rule. If the police find out where you bought the knife, they could possibly cause problems for the owner of the store.


I believe dac and Obi-Wan also make very valid and good points.

I am only 20 myself, but I have carried a knife for a long time. I can only remember one situation where I was confronted with physical violence, and I would most likely have gotten my*****kicked very badly had I stuck around, even with my knife in hand. I was 18 and figured I could take on the world, but I had no training with my blade and was confronted by a very large individual. Instead of drawing my blade, I chose to protect myself and my girl by diving for my car and getting as far from the situation as possible. In this case, the situation was over, the guy was still pissed, but the girl I was with and myself both escaped unharmed, which was much more important than winning a fight or proving myself to him.

You should always try to talk your way out of a situation before anything, then run, and fight only if it means your life or the life of a loved one. At least that is the way I look at things, and it has worked for 20 years for me. It has worked a lot longer than that for some folks, and never resulted in a violent conflict.

I am a firm believe that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but I also hope I am never in either of those situations because of a street fight.

[Moose]

In this case it was very clear to me that I faced serious injury. You mention that 95% of the time its better to walk away, but in my case I couldnt walk away, As my one of my advocates described it to me, self defense is when there is absloutly no way out of it (i.e. backed into a corner as in my case), and your only option is to go through the person to get out.

Now one thing I dont get is alot of people around here seem to talk about, and Im not trying to dis on any of you for it. But alot of you talk about "carrying a knife for self defense." To my knowladge I think its a bad idea, and I can only tell you that from going through it myself, And let this be a lesson to those who do. If I had a chance to take my actions back I would. Now dont get me wrong but dac seems to be saying that "knives shouldnt be used as wepons", when in fact alot of people on this forum talk and carry a knife for self defensive porpuses. There was even one story on here I think it was called "The ladybug that saved x-mas" and how she was attacked in a parking lot and stabed the guy with her ladybug. I understand you dont want more people thinking of knives as deadly weapons. Neither Do I. But I did what I did because I had to not becasue I wanted to.

One thing you guys need to understand is I did not pull my knife to start trobule or to "take on the world", or for any reason of acting macho. I did it becasue I felt I was in imedate danger. You also need to understand had I been given the chance to run...I would of ran like mad and cryed like nancy carragien (sp?) and in many instances at school I have walked away and saved myself alot of grief. I hope you all understand my situation.


"Here a Moose, there a Moose, every where a Moose Moose."

[baszerkawits]

I've carried a 4 inch knife ever since I was 12. It was the S&W S.W.A.T knife, and my parents were very happy that there was always a "blade" around for opening or cutting different things.

As long as you prove to your parents that you are responsible, then they will allow you to carry a knife.

When you're a responsible person, then a knife is a tool.

When you're irresponsible, then a knife is a weapon.

Irresponsible people are losers.

[baszerkawits]

I've carried a 4 inch knife ever since I was 12. It was the S&W S.W.A.T knife, and my parents were very happy that there was always a "blade" around for opening or cutting different things.

As long as you prove to your parents that you are responsible, then they will allow you to carry a knife.

When you're a responsible person, then a knife is a tool.

When you're irresponsible, then a knife is a weapon.

Irresponsible people are losers.

[Colinz]

I carry a knife ONLY for selfdefence (that way it´s always sharp). I have never had a reason to pull my knife on someone. I hope that I never have to do that. I would rather carry a Glock 19, but that is illegal where I live.

My thoughts on selfdefence (short version):

1. NEVER ever try to scare someone with a weapon - some people only get mad.

2. If you pull a knife (or a gun) be prepared to use it all the way.

Does this make me a bad and irresponsible person? I don´t think so. I haven´t fought anyone (outside my line of work) since I was 15. I´m now almost 30. I know how to behave and always manage to talk my way out of trouble (except once when a BG tried to shoot a person next to me - no people injured).

Something for MOOSE to think about:
What do you do if you injure someone you were not supposed to. Do you know how to help that innocent person until professional help arrives? If not, then maybe you are more of a risk to your surroundings than any bad guy.

Maybe you´ve already thought about the question in the last paragraph. I hadn´t when I was your age.

/Colinz

[spyder_man]

i am only 16 but i can buy all the knives i want in arizona.i have bought a police and a civilian cf just last week. but most of the stores have a poilcy to only sell to 18yr olds, its not the law here.

[baszerkawits]

As long as you have a credit card, then it doesn't matter how old you are.

Personally, I think that only fools carry around knives OR guns for self defense. Unless you are a police officer or someone in a dangerous line of work.

If the only reason you carry around a knife is to use it as a weapon, EVEN IN "SELF DEFENSE" then you are doing alot more harm then good.

Think of it this way, if everyone carried around knives for "self defense", then you would most definitely see an increase in "assault with a deadly weapon", and people killing people.

If you pull a knife on a unarmed attacker, then you will probably put yourself in more danger then you would have been in.

The average person is NEVER confronted by an attacker.

Guys who carry around knives for self defense, are either wusses or PARANOID.

Nuf said.

[baszerkawits]

As long as you have a credit card, then it doesn't matter how old you are.

Personally, I think that only fools carry around knives OR guns for self defense. Unless you are a police officer or someone in a dangerous line of work.

If the only reason you carry around a knife is to use it as a weapon, EVEN IN "SELF DEFENSE" then you are doing alot more harm then good.

Think of it this way, if everyone carried around knives for "self defense", then you would most definitely see an increase in "assault with a deadly weapon", and people killing people.

If you pull a knife on a unarmed attacker, then you will probably put yourself in more danger then you would have been in.

The average person is NEVER confronted by an attacker.

Guys who carry around knives for self defense, are either wusses or PARANOID.

Nuf said.

[baszerkawits]

Edited by - baszerkawits on 3/20/2001 3:18:13 PM

[Colinz]

baszerkawits <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>)

Good try to troll... Try it on someone who falls for it.

/Colinz

[baszerkawits]

Give me one example of you using your knife for &quot;self defense&quot;.

Oh, he mugged me! Better pull out the knife and cut him! (makes me laugh)

[Moose]

To say the least I'm quite supprised at the number of posts my topic has brought out.

Colinz,
when I said that I pulled my knife as a way to scare the person away from me was a bad way of putting it.

I can sorta of take baszerkawits point of veiw on how using a knife for self defense will do more harm then good. In my case it did certainly get me into more trobuled then I was willing to bargin for. But I also disagree with his saying that people who carry knives around knives for self defense are either wussed out or paranoid. Im my light of view I think of it as just another excuse/reason to carry a knife <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>







"Here a Moose, there a Moose, every where a Moose Moose."

[baszerkawits]

But I also disagree with his saying that people who carry knives around knives for self defense are either wussed out or paranoid. Im my light of view I think of it as just another excuse/reason to carry a knife

Yes you are also right, but the people who ARE actually carrying a knife around for self defense are wusses or paranoid.

I said you are right because people probably use the self defense excuse to carry a knife. But if your not a kid, you don't need to make excuses.

[Allen E. Treat]

Dear Moose ;
Having worked for an Attorney for
about a year and a half I can tell you that
pulling a knife in self defense is no crime,
provided that the other party involved was
armed and had intent to cause you injury / death. &quot;Justifiable lethal force&quot; is what was
at issue in your case. My recommendation is
to carry pepper spray and use it if the other
party is unarmed, then it's your word against
theirs if they ment to cause you bodily harm.
As far as ownership of knives, there is no law that I can readily think of that makes it
a crime to own knives ( other than if you're
on parole or probation ). Assure your parents
your collection should cause them or you no
legal grief.

A.E.T.

[dac]

Moose, as I said earlier, I don't know you. If you say that you were justified in pulling a knife, I will take your word for it. It just seemed to me that you were nonchalant about the legal consequences of using a knife in a confrontation. I'm not against using knives or other weapons in self defense, I just don't take deadly force lightly. Considering the number of people who don't like or who are indifferent to knives, I think that it is only responsible that all knife users should act with the utmost responsibility when using knives unless we want to see our right to use them curtailed by those so inclined to pass laws for any and everything.

[Jazzman]

Here's my opinion on the matter. I carry two knives at all times. A mid sized folder and my toad. I would not pull a knife on anyone, anytime. I don't think that I could live the consequences of killing someone, even if they had that intention for me. If they want my car keys, my money, my wallet, they can have them. But if you really want to be able to defend yourself, why don't you carry something like a blunt kubaton. I have carried one for about 3 years as a keychain and have never had problems (Granted, I asked a cop friend of mine about legality, prior to carrying it...). I then had a friend teach me some moves with it. The fact is, with the proper training, you shouldn't need to have to use a knife in defense.
Matt

[Colinz]

Jazzman, it seems that you have put a lot of thought into the selfdefense issue.

A problem with the kubaton is that you do not permanently destroy a nervebundle or muscle. It only incapacitate a certain part of the anatomy for a while IF the person is &quot;average joe&quot;. Crackheads and psychotics are some people that are not included in this category.

I just know one thing, if someone attacks me that person has crossed a line. The attacker ATTACKS. That means by definiton that the person has to take the consequenses of the violation. Civilized people do not attack each other.

I will do whatever there is in my power to stop the attack. I believe my life to be priority one, if your isn&#180;t - it&#180;s ok, I do not agree with you.

/Colinz

[Jazzman]

My point is simply that there are MANY alternatives to carrying a knife or gun for self-defense that are far more ethical. Pepper spray for one is even better than a knife. You don't even have to get within striking distance to use it. There are also a number of batons (ASPs) and stun guns that can rend someone unconscious. Plus, I have never heard of someone just shrugging off a stun gun. Someone can shrug off a misplaced stab. The other point I wanted to make is that defense should be hit and run only. You don't need to destroy muscles and such to temporarily stun someone. You hit someone, then you get the heck away and get some real help. I am not telling you not to carry a defense knife. If that is your thing, to each his own. I just find it irresponsible and dangerous.
Matt
PS. I'll let you tell Bram that impact weapons don't work.....

[cgjones]

To the best of my knowledge(and i'm no lawyer)even using pepper spray is a felony depending on the situation. I personally wouldn't do anything in self-defense unless I felt my life was truly in danger. I may sound like a wuss, but unless I think i'm going to die, it's just not worth fighting back.

The forum member formerly known as cjones.

[Colinz]

Jazzman,
I did not want to offend or belittle you. I&#180;m truly sorry if you took it that way, it was never my itention.

About the ethics:
You talk about ethics as being static, it never changes. I also get the impression that you think less damage inflicted means higher degree of ethics. Sorry but I don&#180;t agree.

First point: Ethics differ through time and place that is why moralphilosophy can be studied at college level.
Second point: If someone attacks me that person has physically showed me that for some reason my rights (to freedom) is of no concern to him. The person does not seem to have what you and I call ethics or moral.

About other means of selfdefence:
I agree with you that batons can be a good way of defending oneself. You mentioned a Kubaton earlier. The difference between these two are that with an ASP you can break a bone. By breaking it one cannot use it. A Kubaton uses the pain to reach a similar result. With a Kubaton you do not get the intended results if no pain can be felt.

I believe Bram discussed the cutting of muscle and/or nerves so that the limb seize to FUNCTION. Therefore I do not see why anyone would argue that impact weapons are useless. Good impactweapons and good knives works with the same &quot;stop-the-function&quot; theory.

Stunguns needs a battery and are more difficult to carry concealed. I believe that Massad Ayoob &quot;zaps&quot; a students weak arm as one of many exercises to show that even when stunned a person can fire a gun.

&quot;shrugg of a stab&quot; - to severe tendons, muscles and nerves you cut you don&#180;t stab. I can only think of stabbing maybe to the eyes or using a stab for entry into a point in the anatomy where I can start cutting parts that affect the ability to attack.

Defence as hit-and-run:
I agree if you mean HIT, then check if the BG is incapacitated for further attacks on my person, making sure he doesn&#180;t hit me in the back. Then I RUN.

&quot;irresponsible and dangerous&quot; - I don&#180;t agree. I believe that I have a very, very, high degree of responsibility by making sure I can continue to live and take care of my loved ones.

CARSON:
I don&#180;t think you are a wuss. I just can&#180;t understand why you would not defend yourself. If you are in the process of getting a beating, how do you know when that person is going to stop? Why risk a stomping to death?

/Colinz

[Jazzman]

No offense taken! I just get a little passionate in the heat of battle!!! It is great to hear another's opinions. However, I think that we should continue this conversation through other means featuring that this is a knife forum. If you want to continue this debate, mail me @ garavamj@slu.edu
Thanks,
Matt

[deaddeerhead]

I want my mommy

[cgjones]

I was going more for the gun in my face/knife to my throat idea. I'm a pretty big guy (6ft. 250lbs.) and if someone attacked me without some sort of weapon, they would probably regret it. I'm no Van Damme or anything like that, but I'm a brawler. I just don't think my first reaction would be to reach for a knife. If someone pulled a gun and told me to give them my wallet, they can have it. I rarely carry much if any cash and I can have my bank card cancelled within 15 minutes. I would like to take one of the MBC classes at Spyderco and learn how to correctly use a knife for self-defense.

[cgjones]

sorry, multiple post

Edited by - carson on 3/29/2001 5:36:51 PM

[cgjones]

multiple post

Edited by - carson on 3/29/2001 5:37:49 PM

[cgjones]

multiple post

Edited by - carson on 3/29/2001 5:38:49 PM

[Colinz]

Carson, I believe that I misunderstood you. In a knife-to-the-throat situation I have to agree. Compliance can in some situations be a lifesaver.

I would like to go on a guntingseminar. I will check if it is plausible to do that where I live (europe). Bram mentioned a contact, maybe it will work out for me.

Anyone that has found this thread interesting and has some thougths in the subject of selfpreservation with a blade, check out &quot;practical tactical&quot; on Bladeforums.com.

Pray for peace, prepare for war.

/Colinz

[Frank Olesen]

Hello to all.
I'm new to this forum. Thank you Mr. Glesser for having opened this site. My name is Frank Olesen And I'm one of Bram Frank's instrucors at CSSD, and I own and operate skunkworks concealment solutions.

Moose; I don't know you, but I believe you got in trouble out of ignorance. Had you known when, and when NOT to try and use your knife in self defense you might have circumvented your legal problems. It was also, not prudent of you to TRY and use the knife for your protection if you don't know how to use it, I am assuming that you DON'T know how because it is not PC to teach under age persons how to use a knife in self defense.

I'm not an Atty. but I am part of one of the most advanced, legal and MORAL schooling systems for self defense with a knife, Mr Glesser, Bram, Peter Roman, and Peter Jhones are involved in MARTIAL BLADE CRAFT for a reason. I respectfull suggest that you wait untill you are a little older, and take one of Bram's seminars to actually, uderstand some of the pieces of the complex situation you can get in when using a knife for self defense. Legality, is not the only factor to consider here, the MORAL intent of the cut, will be also examined by the judge }:)


As for the person who said that people are &quot;paranoid and wusses&quot; when WE carry a knife for self preservation, I can only say that it is only your opinion, and your apparent lack of experience shines through your comments.

Frank Olesen
Instructor CSSD

[alf]

Thank you Frank. As usual, experience speaks much louder than theory.
Sincerely,
Charles P.