Way OT Spain

[sc_rebel1957]

I can't believe Spain can be bullied so easy.

It's a terrible tragedy about the train bombing but! letting terroist's dictate what an entire country does is ludicrus at best and dangerous.

It makes me sick to know my oldest son may be in 1raq soon and Spain is turning tail so easy. <img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Ron

[spyderwa]

I just finished listening to two hours of Spanish language radio. It is important to remember that there was never very much popular support in Spain for the war from the outset, so when the blasts hit, the population felt that it was the result of Spain joining forces with the US in Iraq. Most of Europe does not share the same views on Iraq as does the U.S. That is why Bush refered to the &quot;old Europe&quot;, meaning Germany, France, and the others that did not want to participate vs. the new Europe that had a lot to gain in trade and aid from siding with the U.S. It is a complicated issue worldwide, and one that is sure to inflame passionate discussion. Whether we support the Iraq action or oppose it, I think we all must support the troops that were sent there. As with other actions, they just go and do their job in the best manner possible. Let's pray for a safe return for all away from home.

spyderwa

[samosaurus]

Hey Ron, about your kid going to Iraq, take care old buddy! My prayers goes out to him for a safe tour of duty..

Sam

"have scars will travel.."

[voxnaes]

It&#180;s strange Bush uses that &quot;old Europe&quot; line when one of the oldest nations (Denmark) is roling backwards to show America how much we support and want to join in... <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Vox.

[rico]

I agree, the Spaniards have set themselves up to be bullied, for a long time. ETA will start using these tactics. rico

[spyderwa]

ETA as a group has been reduced in number through heavy police enforcement. Those that remain are more radical however. Europe has had to deal with internal and external terrorist threats for a long time. One thing that angered a lot of Spaniards is that the government was quick to blame ETA, and it was felt that they tried to surpress evidence that it was al qaeda. Most of the Spanish ETA attacks have been smaller, often with warnings beforehand. This was very well-coordinated. I think that what this does show is how hard it is to catch terrorists that work in tight cell groupings, speak a foreign language, are financed by oil money, and are wary of strangers. It is tough. I think that the issue that we have ignored for many years is the Saudi involvement in establishing and financing the religious schools that graduated a lot of the 911 and other terrorists. Never a simple issue.

spyderwa

[connor]

Hi *@*.

It's not much about bullying. It's about legality. The Iraq war is - by all means - an illegal war because the USA didn't act in self-defense (Iraq did not attack the USA) nor did the UN approve the war and thus making it 'legal'.

No WMDs in Iraq, no proven links they founded Al Qaida (even the CIA said this several times). And noone with a sane mind would say that the Iraq is safer now than it was before the war. So in my humble opinion Spain does just the right thing.

No single country, however powerful it is, should be allowed to ignore all the other countries and start a war without UN approval.

-Connor




'I ought never to act except in such a way that I can also will that my maxim should become a universal law.'

[J Smith]

The UN is a joke and should be done away with.What war is legal.If there is a threat of attack comeing from one country to another it is that countries right to try to stop the attack before it happens.
I have no dought that if the US had not gone into Iraq there would have been a nuke set off somewhere in the US within the next 10 yrs.Libia had the means to build one and even IF Iraq did not it would not have been hard to buy one from someone else.

<img src=http://techhelpers.net/e4u/drink/trink36.gif

[aggat]

it&#180;s a great tragedy for all the spanish people...
but mr.Aznar, our president,confused us all the time saying that Eta was the main resposable just to win the elections while all the secret agencies were knower about the Alqaeda&#180;s authorship.
I don&#180;t know if it&#180;s a legal war or not.. but here in Spain people disagree with it and we don&#180;t understand why Aznar keep on with the war...

[Concord_Bob]

voxnaes,
I think President Bush's &quot;Old Europe&quot; statement referred to the two faced Countries that claim to be the United States allies, but in fact only want to be allies to get the money this Country squanders on foreign aid.

I don't believe it was meant to be an insult to true allies and friends like Denmark.

[The Cool]

Whilst I don't want to get into whether or not the war was legal or whatever and I can fully understand Spain's reaction in voting out the govt in the wake of this terrible tragedy - I have to agree with Ron that Spain deciding so quick to pull it's troops is a victory for the terrorists.

I wish your son a safe return Ron.

Edited by - The Cool on 3/16/2004 12:16:45 PM

[NEMO]

I'm from Spain too and I agree with aggat...we didn&#180;t need it..we didn&#180;t want to be your alies..Bush was looking for the massive destroy weapons and really spaniards think he is still looking for it...

[NEMO]

Concord_Bob

explain Denmark are your friends, cause they are true allies..to that father who lost his son, the last week in Madrid..Which is the difference between true or false allies?

[Concord_Bob]

Nemo,

Any explaining on the tragedy in your Country should come from the animals that did it. I hate to see any Country fold to terrorism. Sitting back and trying to apease them doesn't work. A perfect example of that is Nevil Chamberlin and his stance on Germany at the beginning of world war II.



Edited by - concord_bob on 3/16/2004 2:16:36 PM

[Civilian]

First off the bombings were a great tragedy and I pray for those lost, and thier families.

and also: Hey Spain, you better get used to the terrorism cause it's really coming now! You gave in so fast the terrorists are licking thier lips now. Just don't come to the US to bail you out this time! I wonder when Spain becomes a terrorist state will we go to war with them?

[pcvh]

'Spain turning its tail': this simply does NOT apply, since the opposition had been shouting for a year that if they won the election, they'd get the troops out. They won. Bombing did not initiate this recall; it was already in motion.

Now what one might think of Spain's withdrawl is another matter, but is was politics in the pipeline, not bombs, that brought it about, and as such 'turning its tail after some bombs' does not apply.

Chris

[sc_rebel1957]

Thanks guys for the well wishes on my son, maybe god willing we will be done with this and all our troops be home soon.
As for the war being legal, Iraq was in violation if the U.N. mandate to begin with.
I just see it as now every nut case with a bomb or the threat of having 1 can now hold Spain hostage.
I mean what does he have to lose? we now all know Spain will cowtow to any demand made.
And I'm not saying this to bad mouth Spain, I feel true sadness for the families who lost members, remember we lost over 6000 on 9/11.
The U.N. should have kept the arms inspectors in Iraq to begin with instead of being throw out after the 1st Gulf war.
And as far as WMD we still don't know for sure, Iraq is a big country and it don't take much room to hide a tactical nuke.
I agree with Jeff, that's our next worry to come.
On this forum we cover alot of countries and this post wasn't meant to offend any of our frineds.
I hope for a day when war is just a memory. Ron

[ken]

So in the paper today-

&quot;Six Moroccans are suspected in attack!
Some suprise huh!
The main suspect is in custody &quot;Jamal Zougam&quot; identified as a follower of &quot;Imad Yarkas &quot; the alleged leader of Spain's al-Qaida cell!

So I guess if you ignore a problem than there isn't one...or...It's always someone else's problem. Heck man their living in your back yard!
Your country and your people need to make decesions with your &quot;minds&quot; not just your &quot;hearts&quot;. This just isn't going to just go away. Will there never be any wars? Not in our lifetime because there too many &quot;little tin gods&quot; out there.

ken.

[peacenik hippy so 'n' so]

&quot;Terrorism&quot; is the murder or maiming of innocent people, no matter what country it happens in.

Is this kid now &quot;free&quot;?


http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_828377.html

[sc_rebel1957]

Glad you replied Peace nic, we have a rare chance to hear from someone actually living in Iraq.
Are you better off now w/o Saddam?
How's the real day to day living there now
We here only see the ocasional tib bit of news on how schools are open now, how the women in your country don't have to worry about being beaten in public now.
The U.S. and the few allies we have left have commited billions of dollars, which in the end we the tax payers will almost surely foot the bill for.
Were you beter off living under a tyrant or do you feel any better about actually choosing a leader?
The whole process would go so much faster if our guys didn't have to worry about homemade bombs in the road every 100 yards.
I as an American am growing tired of hearing about our sons and daughters getting killed for a country that don't appreciate what were trying to do.
IMO the Iraqi citizens should do more to help themselves which would speed things up about our troops getting home because I promise you we SURE don't want to be there.
Ron

[peacenik hippy so 'n' so]

Hello, sir.

What can I say? I don’t live in Iraq...I guess I was trying to suggest that there are real people living there...I’m not strictly a “peacenik” either, I guess...I study martial arts, I carry several Spydies, and if I had no other choice, I would use both to defend myself. BUT:

1: If I had to cut someone, I’d make damn sure NOT to cut the kid standing beside him. We all know the “Shock And Awe” that can be generated by the swift deployment of a Matriarch or similar tool...many of us take care not to alarm the “sheeple”. But who among us would try to justify the “accidental” cutting of an innocent bystander as “collateral damage”?

2: I would not cut someone merely because I “thought” they were going to attack me one day. If I did, I’d have cut everyone by now, including the kid standing beside him. (Can you imagine someone citing the “George Bush precedent” as a defence at their murder trial? &quot;Well, I THOUGHT he was going to attack me...&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

Whatever considerable problems the world had with Hussein, it’s quite unlikely that Ali Abbas or his family were a part of all that. Although now, I would not be surprised if the lad decided to become a terrorist...I would not blame him one bit. (He could stuff his prosthetic arms full of plastique and Spydies.) Ali Abbas and his entire family were not the only victims of what is advertised as a “War On Terrorism”, or “Operation: Iraqi freedom”. They are 1 example among many thousands.

I agree with you so much that Saddam ought to have been removed, that I feel he should have been removed at the end of the 1st Gulf war, many years ago, thereby halving the “collateral damage” that you believe is necessary to make the world “safe”. The way I see it, though, the Iraqi people have simply traded 1 murderer/maimer for another...and George Bush also beats Bin Laden hands down for the murder of innocents, which, I guess, is only my personal definition of “terrorism”.

It’s true we are getting only tidbits of news on Iraq...It’s mostly propaganda. I do not understand how people can look at a boy whose entire family they have killed, whose arms they have blown off, shrug their shoulders, and say he is now “free”.

You are both wrong, and extremely insensitive, if you believe that women in Iraq, AND the U.S. do not fear being beaten in public.

Will the Electoral College have anything to do with the “choosing” of Iraq’s next leader?

The Iraq war will indeed cost the American taxpayer big-time...Ironic that a “Tax-cuttin’” man like Bush would choose to embark on such an expensive endeavour...but, if you break it, you buy it. If you think that bombs just HAD to be dropped on Ali Abbas’ house, and all the other houses of the Iraqi citizenry during the “Shock And Awe” campaign, then I should think you’d pay for the clean up as well. While there’s probably no such thing as a “clean” war, there are certainly cleaner, less destructive, “easier to aim” things to use than bombs. I have seen many “Operation: Iraqi freedom” Spyderco Natives on ebay...too bad more of these knives didn’t make it to the troops. I remember the day the post-war American casualties surpassed those of the war itself...now that has been done many times over. If you want to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, you cannot do it by blowing up their homes.

I know that what YOU (as an American) want to do in Iraq is free the people and all that Jazz. George Bush knows that’s what you want too, so that’s what he told you he was doing. (I don’t know, maybe he even believed it.) And, maybe war is/was the only way to do that. As a martial-artist (“warrior&#8221<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> I study not only HOW to do such things, but how NOT to. Aiming bombs at innocent people falls into the latter category...Ironic that Saddam himself escaped those bombs, wasn’t it?

Spyderco rocks! Take care -peacenik

[Neophyte]

Hi All,

I have just finished a very interesting book called &quot;Continuing The Storm&quot;, by Avigdor Haselkorn. Not only does he make the point that Iraq has put up such a smokescreen surrounding their WMD that no one really knows or could know for sure, but he suggests that Gulf War 1 was ended because of WMD. It appears that Iraq fired a missile at Israel that gave every indication that it could have been armed with bio-agents. Hence he suggests that the war was ended without the removal of Saddam to stop a holocaust. If that was the case, then goodbye and good riddance now.

Speaking of Saddam, the news has been very quiet about him. Does anyone know anything about how his interrogation is going?

Regards, Neophyte.

[sc_rebel1957]

And I tried so hard to resist <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Since you DON'T live in Iraq and are probably getting most of your information from the local news or skewed internet newsgroups I'd say you have no clue as to how things really are.

I read the stroy from the site you posted, and while tragic, dare I share a few 1000 such horrific stories about the small pieces of our citizens rescue personel picked up?

Most of our bombs were lased by men on the ground, do you have any clue what a surgical strike is?
Collateral dammage is a fact of war but with the missles and bombs we dropped plus the fact the entire country was given advanced warning as to when the attacks would start I would hope the majority of our bombs hit strategic targets and not innocents.

I grant you the fact that any human life taken is a waste, but most of us aren't going to stick our heads in the sand and let yet another American city attacked w/o doing our best to stop it AHEAD of time.
You bemoan the poor Iraqi citizens, since you're misleading about your location I ask you do you feel the same for the 6000 Americans who perished on 9/11?
Have you did your duty as a citizen of whatever country you live in as a solider?
Have you went into a burning, crumbling buliding like the NYPD,NYFD,EMS,countless others who ran back into the fires that day to help?
Do I care that innocent people were mamed/killed during our attacks, yes ofcourse I do.
Do I cry for the IDIOTS who strap bombs on and blow up MY people while they are just there trying to rebuild their schools, hospitals, give them a decent way of life, HELL NO I hope we get them before they get us, if that makes me a bad person in your eyes so be it. Ron Cochran



Edited by - sc_rebel1957 on 3/25/2004 2:15:56 AM

[peacenik hippy so 'n' so]

Hello sir...

Firstly allow me to say that I do NOT think you are a “bad person”...the fact that my arguments cut like VG-10 steel is only because I passionately disagree with your position. I know that with your son going to Iraq, this is a very emotional issue for you, and truly, I wish him a safe return to you. Indeed, since the bombing campaign is now over, the military operations in Iraq can actually do some good, even though that “good” is in large part a cleaning-up process of the mess made by that same military.

You would probably also find that I have more in common with you than you would like to admit...we are both fans of Spyderco and freedom and justice, and who knows what other interests we may share?

Now, we could argue back and forth about whose news/propaganda sources are the most reliable, but unless you believe that Ali Abbas’ story, and the thousands like it are a LIE, there is probably no need. I do indeed know what a “surgical strike” is, and the “shock and awe” campaign was not one of these, unless you believe that the victims of such a strike “require surgery” (amputation) afterwards.

Ali Abbas was not any more likely to attack an American city than any of the other thousands of Iraqi victims...there was no point in destroying their homes and taking their lives...indeed if America had not, they would probably find more of the Iraqi people friendlier right now. MY “head is not in the sand” when I say that NO definitive link between Iraq, and 9/11 has been discovered, either before OR after the invasion. (Although I hear that Bush nonetheless is giving out “war on terrorism” medals to American troops stationed in Iraq.) Since there is no link, I do not see the logic in bringing up the very tragic events of 9/11...there was no need to “get revenge” on the Iraqi citizens for 9/11.

I understand well what kind of an effect the extremely horrific events of 9/11 had on the American psyche, and in my opinion, it dishonours both the heroes and the victims, to turn around and USE that tragedy to commit virtually identical acts of terrorism to other innocent people in other countries...Now, YOU did not use it that way, but the powers that be did, and still are. Those same powers are probably what lends you the “us and them” mentality as well...I personally consider people from every country, religion, and ethnicity to be “MY people”, and the only “badguys” are the ones who try to divide and destroy us.

As evidenced by the ever-growing list of casualties, this portion of the Iraq war will be the most dangerous, the longest, the most gruelling...possibly the “shock and awe” campaign was supposed to prevent such casualties, but it is clear that it only delayed them, and indeed, inspired much of the anger now felt by a few of the Iraqi citizens, who know too well that those soldiers trying to help rebuild Iraq were the same ones who bombed it in the first place.

I am not such a peacenik that I do not believe taking out the “badguy” can solve a lot of problems...a “surgical strike” would have taken out Saddam. It is a shame that after spending so much money on high tech armaments, the U.S. chose to aim them at those schools and hospitals, which they are now attempting to rebuild. Indeed, the dangerous and expensive “rebuilding process” seems to me an ADMISSION that a real mistake was made somewhere.

Hmmm...so Gulf war 1 was ENDED because of WMDs, and GW2 was begun for the same reason...I guess that’s what they call “military intelligence”. When I say that, I do not mean to denigrate the military...in fact, some might say that I am a “student” of historical acts of military valour...none of the great and celebrated historical acts involved the bombing of civilians.

Again, sir, I wish your son a safe return.

take care -peacenik