what is MBC, can I see an example?

[skcusloa]

anyone got any videos I can download or something?

[Qship]

You can buy videos at:

www.paladin-press.com

Search on Janich

Qship

[skcusloa]

so it's basically playing ninja with a little folding knife?

[4 s ter]

I'm sure there are many who would disagree with your characterization of the MBC program.

With all due respect, you make it sound like a childish game with an inconsequential weapon. I suggest to you that it is neither of those.

David

"Not all who wander are lost"

[Mr.Skin]

Hey skcusloa,

MBC is not "playing ninja". Paladin Press carries wide range of produces. Many are very good and informative, from well respected people in their respective arts. Mike Janich's Fighting Folders, Advanced Fighting Folders and Mastering Fighting Folders cover the majority of the MBC course material. Mike's website www.martialbladecraft.net also gives a description of each MBC class.


Gavin D.

[Michael Janich]

Dear skcusloa:

If you're really interested in learning more about the MBC curriculum, please consult my web site www.martialbladecraft.com and look carefully at the course descriptions. They describe the program in considerable detail.

If you need a more concise explanation, MBC is a self-defense system that focuses on the use of small, concealable knives. It concentrates on disabling an attacker by cutting the portions of his anatomy that allow him to wield a weapon and remain mobile and does not promote the exclusive use of lethal force, as many other knife programs do.

There are more detached opinions of the MBC program available via reviews posted by MBC alumni. To find these, search on this forum and bladeforums.com. If you just want to make ninja jokes, MBC's probably not your cup of tea.

Stay safe,


mike j

[Qship]

Ninjitsu is a Japanese discipline much distorted by popular movies.

MBC is loosely based on, but not limited to, escrima, which comes from the Philippines. The main outside influence on escrima is Spanish sword and dagger play, the legacy of a long period of hostilities between Spain and the Philippines. About half the terms used are Spanish and the remainder are primarily Tagalog.

Escrima was popularized by Bruce Lee, who learned it from Danny Inosanto, one of his senior students. It is the weapons system Lee used in his movies, and became the unofficial weapons system of Jeet Kune Do. Escrima is a complete system, and includes empty hands, long weapons (staff, spear), medium weapons (sticks, swords), short weapons (knives and various impact weapons), and empty hands.

MBC concentrates on short knife, since that is the knife you will be most likely to have when trouble comes. MBC emphasizes disarming and incapacitating techniques. It is not so much fighting with a knife as fighting when a knife is one of the tools, and skills, you have available. The intent is to keep the practitioner alive, not to role play.

Qship

[skcusloa]

If I was worried enough about being attacked, that I practiced to use my pocket knife to protect me, I'd just buy a gun.

Really, if you were being mugged and you slashed the guy that was mugging you up with a pocket knife, and you let him live, he would probably find a way to sue you. The cops would look at you like you were a nut. A gun is easy to explain, they usually don't live, and you have more of a chance at being able to ask them to back off.

[JBRO1]

skcusloa,

Howdy.

I know I'm going to regret this, but I'm not sleeping real well, right now, so:

I'm a law enforcement officer. Have been one for nearly twenty years, and I'll thank you not to speak for me or any of my brother and sister officers in an attempt to take a crack at Mr. Janich's program.

I've investigated a hundred or so cuttings and like everything else, I never go into the job with a preconceived notion of who's right or wrong based on the weaponry used in the combat. Pull a knife, pull a gun...doesn't matter too much to me - both make the circumstances a deadly force situation. Probably the guy with the knife has a better reason to have the tool on him. And, if you're thinking about toting a firearm, remember, knives are contact weapons, bullets find a terminal resting place, and whether or not those resting places are in an assailant, you are still responsible for them.


Mr. Janich's MBC is the most logical and well taught knife program available today - and I say that as an officer survival intructor tasked with teaching edged weapons response and defense.

By the way, and this will give EVERYONE a chuckle, I have a nidan in togakure ryu ninjutsu, and it ain't nothing like MBC.

Be safe...and maybe a tad more respectful.

Ethan

[Michael Janich]

Dear JBRO1 and Qship:

Thank you for your support and your well-reasoned posts. Since I know that both of you had decades of training in other arts before becoming involved in MBC, your words are high praise indeed.

To skcusloa, if you're not convinced that MBC is for you, that's fine. As for carrying a gun, I do, and I've worked hard to develop my skills with it as well. I also understand the circumstances that favor its use, those that favor the use of a knife, and those that are best handled with empty hands and I continue to refine my skills in all three disciplines.

Stay safe,


mike j

[brownie0486]

skcusloa:

As JBRO1 has so spoken, I won't presume to answer for others relative their experience in MBC bladecraft, I'll just give you an opinion based on 14 years of defensive knife training with several top instructors around the country as well as having been an instructor to LE and civilians through the S+W training division in that timeframe.

Your astatement that "If I was worried enough about being attacked, that I practiced to use my pocket knife to protect me, I'd just buy a gun." alludes to the idea you carry that you do not need something to defend yourself at anytime past or present.

That may be a little naieve on your part, but you have every right to believe nothing will ever happen to you where you may need to defend yourself with anything you have at hand when that time potentionally comes.

You have the right to play the odds that you will never need to defend yourself, in fact many more play that end of the odds game than study various types of defense involving the knife, the gun, a stick, or anything unconventional they may use and find within reach if and when that time comes in theor life when they are threatened with deadly force or serious bodily harm in some manner.

Having studied under Mr. Janich for a weekend with the MBC 1+2 course a few months ago in Ohio, my take on his defensive knife training falls into the same realm of mindset that I have where use of the knife defensively is concerned.

Primarily there are two camps of thought processes with the forum knife community which can roughly be extrapolated into society in general where weapons systems/platforms and mindset are concerned with individuals.

Those who believe if you are threatened with grave danger or deadly force that you have an obligation to go full out and attempt to cause injuries to the attacker which will in all likelihood end in his death.

The other side of the camp believes, at least to some degree, that not all violent encounters need to be dealt with in that manner, preferring to train to disable the attacker/aggressor but bio-mechanically cutting the perp where he will be unable to continue to threaen you or others initially if the opportunity presents itself.

The techniques that Mr. Janich shows in his MBC are for when you have the opportunity to defend yourself with the folder you carry clipped to your pocket daily [ which many thousands presently do across the globe, not just here in the US ], and you then have enough knowledge that if the situation presents itself you may "defang" the attacker/aggressor of his weapon through cutting various areas on the body while maintaining your own relative safety while under attack.

Is it the end all/be all of street defense? I would not think so, that would require one to have a working knowledge of empty hand, stick, gun, rifle, unconventional weapons of opportunity through awareness of ones surroundings and what may be available to use at the time, and perhaps some flexible weapons thrown in for good measure.

You comment leads one to believe you do not carry a gun presently as you do not believe that you will ever be threatened with bodily harm or death from some nefarious individual. As to whether you carry a knife, straight or folder, with the idea you may defend with it one day, I have no idea, but my guess from your statements is that you may carry a knife of some type but have never realized the potential of the knife to defend yourself.

I won't presume to guess your situation and circumstances by which you live or not live in relative saftey and obscurity as you pass others in public places daily.

If you believe you are not in jeapoardy of being a victim of a violent crime at anytime, so be it but understand there are those among the masses who do feel the need to learn how to depoly and use a folding knife we carry daily clipped to our pockets to defend ourselves.

History has shown that people are killed while being mugged, robbed, raped, etc and in lieu of becoming a willing victim, there are those among us who would rather have the knowledge of how to defend ourselves with the tools we carry about our person on a daily basis.

Seeking the knowledge of how to defend ones life or that of others lives in the case of LE's/Security professionals is not only prudent but shows forethought to potential encounters of the worst kind.

To that end, we train to defend ourselves with objects we carry daily, like the folding knives clipped to the pockets of our pants.

Knowledge of how to defend oneself is always going to be better than no knowledge at all if and when the time comes to defend ones person.

Those who seek the knowledge have forethought, those who do not can more easily become prey to the predators who walk among us in society.

I'll try to not be the latter if at all costs by training to be the former. You might consider that thought process further before making statements about playing ninja with small folders.

You may just be very surprised how easily you can be cold forever with a small folder and one who knows how to use it to it's full advantage against another.

The MBC program, as developed by Mr. Janich and sponsored by Spyderco and Sal Glesser attempts to address the needs of those who seek the knowledge of baldecraft. I might add that it is my opinion that Mike Janich brings his extensive experience in the real world to his MBC seminars for those of us who would rather "know" through training than "guess" what might be possible in a deadly encounter if attacked or threatened.

Hope that answers any questions you may have on MBC. Now if we could only get you to attend a seminar with Mike Janich, perhaps you could also become a "ninja".

I don't take the ninja comment negatively. In fact just the opposite. They were warriors who trained hard with all types of weapons and were as prepared as possible for anything they may run into.

BTW--The gun is not the end all, be all to your potential self defense. That statement does border on the naieve and does not show your knowledge of the real world favorably.

Brownie

[suburban cowboy]

Brownie,
Succinct, as always my friend.

Mike M

[Jimd]

skcusloa,
Often, the best way to approach a self-defense tool system is a layered approach. Different levels give you different options.

Combining a knife, gun, and perhaps, pepper spray gives you the option of different levels of force for you to use.

Here are a few advantages that a knife offers:
1. They're quiet; using one won't wake the entire neighborhood.
2. They don't need reloading like a pistol.
3. As was already pointed out, you won't kill three innocent pedestrians a block down the street if you miss, like you could with a firearm.
4. Using a knife allows you to choose the level of lethality that you apply.

What am I basing my opinions on? Fourteen years as a law enforcement officer working inside the nation's fourth largest prison.

I've witnessed dozens of knife attacks, and been involved in several myself. Unfortunately for me, I've been there, done that when it comes to knife attacks. I have a very good grasp at what works and what does not.

I've seen the aftermath of more knife attacks than I can recall, and I've also seen people killed with knives. I've come very close to being stabbed/cut myself on numerous occasions.

I'd suggest that you get some quality training, expand your mind a bit (or, in your case, a LOT), and talk to some people who've done it for real.


Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com

[skcusloa]

Ok, both of you officers are the most logical one's I've ever met. The ones around here don't live up to your standards. See, you people are looking at it in a biased way. You love your ninja knife fighting hobby/lifestyle/career and you have every right to. But every example you give is in the best case scenario for you and the worst case scenario for a gun owner.

I'd pick a gun because, what if I come up against a person with a gun? Which is the worst case scenario. What if I don't have time to learn the secrets of the ninja pocket knife? Anyone can use a gun. Sure you have to get a permit to carry one, and it's a larger investment, but if you buy a high quality used pistol and keep it nice, you'll be able to sell it for around what you got it for. You don't have to shoot a gun to get people to back off most of the time. If you come up to lysol, the three hundred pound guy who just got out of prison, he's going to laugh at your knife. He'll take a gun a little bit more seriously.

MBC:

semi cheap- can't argue

light- can't argue

silent- I'm sorry but if I am in a life threatening situation, I want everyone in the world to know, this is only an advantage to the true pocket knife ninja.

reason to carry- tell that to one of the Okmulgee police officers and he'll arrest you for public intox, in fact, if you tell him anything but, yes sir, no sir, he'll probably arrest you for public intox.. (again I'm looking at it like you folks, in a biased way, I'm sure if one of you officers searched me and found a delica, you'd probably have a nice conversation with me and we'd become buddies)

Choice of lethality- sorry but any moron that is robbing people on the streets needs to meet his end so we don't waste money on making him a better criminal by sending him
to prison...

Reload- I'd buy something that would accept high capacity magazines, and learn how to reload fast, and aim well. I can't really imagine reloading while being mugged. I can only imagine reloading while facing a group....



No I do not carry a pistol. Yes I do carry a delica everywhere I go.

Most of the situations I feel could become dangerous in my everyday life, a car would probably be the best weapon.

Yes I believe in weapons of opportunity. I will do anything I can to keep an attacker from even touching me. I'll throw everything in the room at someone.

A knife has no distance. If you throw it (ninja) you disarm yourself. A pistol has some reach to it.

I see nothing wrong with MBC. I just don't see it as a logical form of modern self defense. Martial arts are great as a hobby and they might become very useful. But, I would never rely on them getting me out of a life and death situation as much as I'd rely on a pistol.

[Qship]

skcusloa,

I have concealed weapons permits from Colorado, Florida, and New York. With reciprocity, I can legally carry a sidearm in about half the United States. Within those states, there are restrictions on where I can carry. In the rest of the states, and outside the country, carrying a pistol will send me to jail. Most places, I can legally obtain, and carry, an effective knife.

I have taken handgun training from very good people, I am an NRA instructor myself, and I carry a 1911 pattern Colt .45 semi-automatic. At handshake distance, I would just as soon have a knife. I always carry a knife.

Before you jump to the conclusion that Mr. Janich is a stranger to firearms, do two things. Check his background on his web site, then do a google search on Colonel Rex Applegate who, together with Mr. Janich, wrote a definitive text on close quarter pistolcraft. Available at Paladin Press.

Many of the people on the list are high speed, low drag, and I have learned a great deal from them. You can, too.

Mas Ayoob gives an excellent course on the legal aspects of the judicious use of lethal force. I suggest it would be a better investment for you than a handgun, or an MBC course. Your misconceptions about the use of lethal force are almost certainly more of a threat to your well being than any mugger.

Qship

[Qship]

Double post deleted. Qship

Edited by - qship on 5/18/2004 4:17:35 PM

[brownie0486]

skcusloa:

You admit you do not carry a gun, and do carry a Delica daily. Which will you have with you when someone attempts to rob you, or harm you in some way? Why of course, you'll have that Delica.

How's that saying go again? A bird in the hand [ or in this case a small folder ] is worth ?.

That gun you don't own and don't carry will do you no good at all in a lethal encounter will it?

On the other hand, that knife could possibly come into play quite easily if you were being choked from behind. You could access that small folder and cut the arm holding you could you not?

Would that make you a ninja if you used it thusly to defend yourself? Hardly, but it could make you a survivor of the encounter instead of suffering major injuries or death.

You speak as anyone here has alluded to the fact they think the knife is an end all, be all to defense. It is not. But as Jim mentioned above, it's the layering of various implements you have with you that may save the bacon one day.

Throw the knife, no one mentioned that either from the replies I've read. No, it will not solve all crimes where a gun is used to intimidate or harm you. The knife may certainly remain on the pocket and you may never get to use it to defend yourself in those scenarios, thats true. That does not, however, negate the fact that people who have some training and carry a folder with possible defense in mind would not be able to use it to their advantage under certain circumstances. Again, back to that saying of a "bird in the hand" rings a bell here. If you don;t have the training, don't have the desire to get some training with a knife, no big deal to us here. You have your choices to make in life and we have ours, to each his own as they say.

If you don't have the time to learn the "secrets of the ninja pocket knife", you most assuredly won't have the time to learn the gun either. Not to any great effect anyway.

It's all about priorities in ones life. Mine have always been to go home at the end of the night no matter what mess I got into whether it was my fault or someone elses. To give me a better chance of surviving potentially lethal encounters on the streets where I have worked for nie on 30 years, I have sought the training in weapons platforms such as the gun, knife, stick, flexible weapons, unconventional weapons of opportunity, etc. for quite a few decades now.

Do you not feel that I have a better chance of surviving than one who has not taken the time to train in these disciplines?

You state "any moron that is robbing people on the streets needs to meet his end so we don't waste money on making him a better criminal by sending him to prison..."

Though I realize there are many with that same view, the ones who have carred that idea to fruition when the opportunity presented itself have often found themselves in prison for committing their own crimes after being assaulted or robbed as lethal force is not always warranted or necessary to escape grave bodily injury or death.

Do you honestly believe that you, carrying a gun could access that gun in time once you were being robbed at knife point or gun point to stop the action of the perp? I hope not as that would show us here that you hold the gun as some cure all to crime being stopped an the answer to all your potential needs.

People like myself who have carried on the job or off duty for that matter realize in the real world the gun is not the answer to every problem where perps are concerned and that you may not even get the chance to use it under many circumstances even if you have it with you.

There are many elements to ones safety, the gun is one potential, the knife, stick and unconventional weapons are others. Thats why Jim stated having some knowledge of how to utilize the various tools at different times is important.

For the ife of me, I can't see how your car will solve your needs for self defense all the time unless you never get out of the vehicle from your driveway until you return home sometime later. If you walk the streets at all, you are exposing yourself to potential dangers, maybe you can't see them, haven't the ability to recognize them as potential threats, but rest assured they are there always and waiting to bite you when you least expect them to ocurr.

Can you see the knife as a means to rob another? Then you should be able to see that the knife represents potential lethal force upon your person. With the training, you might be able to recognize the knife as a legitimate means to self defense, not in every sceanrio, but then you only have to have it, use it with the training you have received in it's use once to be the benefactor of an edged weapon possibly helping you survive the streets.

When you were playing ball on the fields as a kid, you practiced and got better. No practice, you degressed or got no batter. Practice the defensive knife techniques and you may just save your own bacon one day.

Don't train with the knife and your chances of survival with that particular weapons platform under attack are about as good as you becoming the next splendid splinter.

It's that simple. Train for the possibles and hope you never have to use it thusly. Layer your approach to personal safety, have a few tricks in that bag and one day you may just pull a rabbit from your hat and hand another his*****when the tables are turned.

Brownie

[mac_heath]

skcusloa is at best ignorant and at worst a troll. Guns and knives are not necessarily and either/or dichotomy as he implies. Each tool has its place.

Read his screenname backwards for a window into what we're dealing with.

Would a mod please close this thread and stop feeding the troll?

[brownie0486]

I just wanted to add here that many people who train with the knife also carry firearms daily when going about their normal days routines.

They train with and carry a knife in conjunction to the gun. That layering idea again. They understand a gun is not always a viable option and may choose to use the knife in lieu of the gun for any number of reasons.

Are we to believe you think everyone who carries a gun doesn't have need for a knife as well at certain times? Others who live it for real daily would argue that point endlessly against the idea. We can't be all wrong here can we?

I know with the training I have, it has been money and time well spent. I personally have over 10K in gun training alone over 30 years and still train hard with the blades as well.

I'm sure there are others who are in a similiar scenario as well. They understand the need to not use the gun as a crutch for all potentials, those who do find themselves in bad times quite often. Often too late and a dollar short.

Don't cut yourself short [ pun imtended ].

Brownie

[Michael Janich]

Thanks to everyone who contributed rational input to this thread. It's comforting to know that there are well-trained, reasonable people out there on our side. The fact that I've had the honor to train with many of you also makes me feel good in that I've chosen my friends wisely.

As for skcusloa's comments, they remind me of a saying I once heard: "The problem with wrestling with pigs is that you both get dirty and the pig enjoys it." With that in mind, I don't plan to devote any more time to skcusloa's comments. I'll just be content with the fact that we (the rational ones) were right all along...

Stay safe,


mike j

[skcusloa]

I've had this name this screen name since I was 10. I'm 20 now and I don't plan on changing it because it's immature.

"You may just be very surprised how easily you can be cold forever with a small folder and one who knows how to use it to it's full advantage against another."

So you want to fight other people skilled in the art of the ninja pocket knife?

"Before you jump to the conclusion that Mr. Janich is a stranger to firearms, do two things."

I haven't even mentioned his name. How can I jump to conclusions about a person without saying their name?

"Do you honestly believe that you, carrying a gun could access that gun in time once you were being robbed at knife point or gun point to stop the action of the perp? I hope not as that would show us here that you hold the gun as some cure all to crime being stopped an the answer to all your potential needs. "

If I'm being robbed at gun point, I'm going to give them my money. If I'm being robbed with a knife I'll run. I don't let anyone get close enough to me to where they can stick it to my throat.

I don't walk the streets. I'm not a hoodlum and I'm not a cop. I honestly don't get in many situations where I have a high chance of getting mugged, stabbed, shot, raped, murdered, or anything of that nature.

It's not hard to cut someone. I'm sure most of the MBC stuff is counters and grabs that involve you cutting them.

I apologize if I've offended you people by using the word ninja.

I'm not going to fight someone face to face if I plan on causing them serious harm. I'm going to fight unfairly. If you think this is dishonorable, you are a super ninja.

I asked you people a simple question and you tried to sell me something. Most of the opinions you give are biased.

No matter what you say, you are still playing ninja with a pocket knife. There's nothing wrong with it, you get a good workout, it might come in use, and it makes you feel safer. But, if the average person saw you practicing, they would think you were playing ninja with a pocket knife. People like ninjas. I like ninja movies.

Legality of shooting a mugger? I don't care. I'll risk going to jail to protect my life and my property. In fact going to jail is not an option.

I know a guy who shot two muggers dead. He was shot too. He didn't even spend a night in jail. It happened in Nevada. There are a million scenarios. I've said several times that you don't have to shoot someone to solve the problem. You people act like I'd just blow someone's head off for looking at me funny.

I don't like cops. A lot of them don't do their jobs very well. A lot of them spend more time collecting taxes than helping people. A lot of them arrest people for crimes that have no victims. In fact I worry about being harassed by cops more than I've ever worried about criminals. There are exceptions, but VERY few.

[Qship]

"I've had this name this screen name since I was 10. I'm 20 now and I don't plan on changing it because it's immature."

Thank you for confirming you have had the same screen name for ten years. I no longer take your comments about firearms seriously. Legally buying and carrying a firearm requires passing a background check.

I did an Internet search and came up with an interesting post by someone with the same screen name and e-mail address as skcusloa. The inattention to spelling, punctuation and proper grammar has an all too familiar look.

Forum members might want to check out this URL:

Qship

__________________________________________________ ______________________
http://www.palidan.com/forums/messages/5/50.html?1051196857

Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 04:07 pm
I just wanna talk to everyone I can about this.
We were walking away from a friends house to the car that was a block and a half away. We got to the car and just sat down and a cop turned the corner with it's lights on. They took our liscences and checked us out. Then they got the driver out and asked him what he was doing and he said something about walking down the street from the laundromat(I didn't hear this at the time) then they got me out and I told him we were coming from a friends house. Then they searched me.

I got busted with 3 pain pills and some weed and a small brass pipe. My bond was set at 1000 dollars for the pain pills only and no bond for the other charges. My friend got busted with me and he had more but nothing else. He's got more money than me and his lawyer says we're gonna plead guilty get probation, possible fines and it would eventually dissapear. I have no problem with that. I just don't have a lawyer. I don't know wether to plead guilty or no contest. I was never read my rights if that matters. The lady at the jail said don't worry and about the same thing my friends lawyer said. I just don't wanna have to pay the lawyer a couple grand and then get fines. It'll take me forever to pay it off.
This is exactly how it happened. I recently went to court to get another court date set. My discovery hearing is on the 8th and the judge said I HAVE to get a lawyer. I'm a college student living with my parents and I only have a little bit of money. Is there anyway I can avoid court legally? Is there anyway to get a lawyer if you made bail?
Things that might help me: I am a veteran, this is my first offense ever, and I'm poor.
Please email me: skcusloa@hotmail.com <mailto:skcusloa@hotmail.com>


Edited by - qship on 5/20/2004 2:22:15 PM

[Jimd]

A few points:
1. Handgun gunshot wounds are not always deadly, and do not always immediately incapacitate the attacker. I know, literally, scores of people with bullet scars who were not killed (obviously), and who were not stopped at the time of their shooting. In short, handguns suck at stopping bad guys a good percentage of the time. SHOT PLACEMENT is paramount.

2. It takes time to deploy a handgun. At close quarters range, a person with a knife can often stab a person who is trying to access a firearm.

3. Knives are at least as lethal as firearms at close quarters when deployed correctly. I know our mission is not to kill the bad guy, but to incapacitate him. However, many wounds that incapacitate also happen to kill, as well.

Don't take this as if I'm anti-gun; I fully support folks arming themselves for protection.

As for my training, I've been shooting for the past 30 years (since I was five yrs. old).

I'm a former sniper, emergency response team member, and have trained with my department's hostage rescue team. I have a large amount of practical experience dealing with hostilities and surviving in environments in which people do not wish for me to survive.

In a self-defense situation, I'd hope that I have both a knife AND a firearm with which to protect myself. I like options.

And, in all fairness, I don't think anyone here is trying to be a pocket-knife ninja (at least, that's my opinion).

I might not agree with everything that's said here, but I think intentions are well-meant, and the basis is good.

In a real self-defense situation with a knife, here's how it goes down:
One party gets the drop on the other. He proceeds to stab the living******out of the victim. End of story. That's how 90% of them go down.

"He who hits first wins"! Remember that! You may see it again.

Use angle and direction, and distance to get away from your attacker. I've used it...it works! It saved my life at least twice, possibly three times. USE IT!

I've seen, up close and personal, a person with life-threatening injuries, and he didn't even know he was stabbed for about thirty seconds! What tipped him off was when his lungs began filling with blood, and he ran out of breath. His will kept him fighting, but his body eventually stopped him. Incapacitation.

Another man, also up close and personal, was stabbed multiple times. Mortally wounded,he tried to keep fighting. His body stopped him when the blood pressure dropped too low to continue. He expired shortly after. Incapacitation.

Not everyone is afraid of a knife or a gun. You'll see this again.

How effective are firearms? I personally know a man who was shot with a .357 Magnum (you know, the #1 manstopper) in the back. The .357 bullet ended up lodged underneath his left cheekbone, having traveled up his neck. He did not cease his hostilities, nor did he feel any great amount of pain. He still has the scar where they cut the bullet out of his cheek. During the same incident, he was also hit in the hand by a .45 ACP, with little effect.

I know another man who was shot twice in the head with a .380 ACP, that had no effect. You can still see where the bullets impacted his skull. He was also shot underneath the jaw, in the fleshy part of the throat, and the round ended up in his mouth, after having traveled through his tongue. Again, not many ill effects; he spit the bullet out!

THIS, people, is why I keep telling you that a cut here and a cut there MIGHT not be sufficient to stop a bloodthirsty attacker from killing you. Sometimes, it boils down to a stabfest in which gross motor skills are used to simply stab your attacker more times than he's trying to stab you. I've seen this take place, and it's damn scary.
Okay, I've tortured you enough....


Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com

[Rex G]

Good stuff from Brownie, Michael, and other responders to this thread. He who started this thread, well, did manage to stimulate some interesting dialogue. Look for the good in everything. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

[thombrogan]

Skcusloa,

The most left-out part of Janich's approach to teaching is his integration of Nike-Do into bladecraft. It's an obscure art, but a crucial one to pursue.

[diananike]

The reasons for using a knife for self-defense are myriad and having used a knife for self-defense in the past I can attest to the fact that martial blade craft has saved me from being both badly hurt and arrested afterwards. In one instance my palming of the knife along my forearm in reverse grip after pulling it on a masked fellow who was in the process of pulling his fixed blade with which to rob me, made the knife visible to him and invisible to the police who pulled up just in time to arrest two of his accomplises. My knife was quickly pocketed and two people faced weapons and attempted robbery charges while I was able to hold my head up high in a court that found them guilty of the despicable crime they had perpetrated on me, my sister and my girlfriend who thought our streets were safe at night. If I had used any other weapon the police would have seen it and I most likely would have been charged as well. I only wish they had caught the fellow who would have stabbed me had I not had the MBC training enough to beat him to the draw.

[Mr. V]

I don't get it.

I was raised near NYC, and later have lived in or near several different metro areas.

Never once has my life been threatened, nor has the life of my friends been threatened by robbers or other nefarious blackguards.

No perps have tried to mug me; no *actual* self-defense issues have presented themselves.

As a result, I feel there is little or no REAL NEED to learn these self-defense techniques.

My question: what is the impetus for people becoming enamored with MBC, and other forms of close quarters quasi-martial arts self-defense stuff?

I can see how LEOs and prison guards would have an actual use for this stuff, but the average joe has no need for this esoteric skill.

If it isn't based in reality, that leaves only...

[Qship]

&quot;Never once has my life been threatened, nor has the life of my friends been threatened by robbers or other nefarious blackguards.&quot;


The belief that you are safe because you have never been attacked is similar to the belief that you are immortal because you are still alive.

If there is no threat, whom do you suppose LEOs pursue, and prison guards contain?

In my case, a lad with a long, violent criminal record broke into my home and came into my bedroom. There was a Federal warrant out for his arrest, and the police were glad to get him. I was not very good, just better than he was, and I realized I might not be so lucky again. I decided to get better. Since my wife was next to me in bed, her safety was of greater concern than mine.

There are certainly other reasons. Ordinary military training, while good, is not the best that can be had. Anyone in the military, or who plans to be in the military, would be well advised to get the best training available -- simply as a matter of survival.

And, the threat recognition training that often goes with martial arts may keep one out of harm's way.

Analytically, we do a risk/benefit analysis, the same kind of analysis that prompts us to buy insurance.

Then, there is an over-riding philosophical issue. Some of us can not understand why anyone would deliberately choose to be defenseless. We believe we have an obligation to defend both ourselves and those close to us.

Qship

[Rex G]

Mr. V, if we go by statistical probability, even a police officer will probably never have to shoot someone during an entire career, so why bother to learn to shoot, or even load the pistol? Well, statistical probability or not, &quot;it&quot; happened to me after nine years of wearing the badge. One local deputy had it happen twice in his career, and the two events were one week apart! OK, enough about law enforcement. How about private citizens? One woman living in a quite nice neighborhood had two home invasions approximately one year apart, and was quite glad to have her revolver handy. (I was the first responding officer both times.) If &quot;your day&quot; comes, do you want to be a sheep, or a warrior? Our relatively safe society makes it possible to choose, and probably live to a ripe old age either way. I would rather be prepared. I carry a rather extensive set of tools in my vehicle, and if on a long trip add more, because I want to be prepared. What usually happens is that my spare fluids, tools, and knives are used to help those less prepared.

[Mr. V]

Thanks for the replies; you guys are LEOs so of course, it makes sense for you to master this stuff.

Heck, I am not putting anybody down for being interested in this, my point though is that it probably isn't necessary to immerse oneself in in, full bore.

Of course, I would hate for my last, dying thought to be &quot;if I'd only had a gun.&quot;

BTW, I own a Spyderco Gunting, other knives, and several pistols.

I practice shooting my 9mm occasionally, but know nothing about the correct use and deployment of my knives.

For the good of the order, is there a website or other source to give me (and others) some idea as to how to use edged weapons correctly?

I may not live and breathe this hobby (my choice, it's fine if others do), but I probably should know a bit more about it...just in case.

[Mr. V]

Thanks for the replies; you guys are LEOs so of course, it makes sense for you to master this stuff.

Heck, I am not putting anybody down for being interested in this, my point though is that it probably isn't necessary to immerse oneself in in, full bore.

Of course, I would hate for my last, dying thought to be &quot;if I'd only had a gun.&quot;

BTW, I own a Spyderco Gunting, other knives, and several pistols.

I practice shooting my 9mm occasionally, but know nothing about the correct use and deployment of my knives.

For the good of the order, is there a website or other source to give me (and others) some idea as to how to use edged weapons correctly?

I may not live and breathe this hobby (my choice, it's fine if others do), but I probably should know a bit more about it...just in case.

[Mr. V]

Thanks for the replies; you guys are LEOs so of course, it makes sense for you to master this stuff.

Heck, I am not putting anybody down for being interested in this, my point though is that it probably isn't necessary to immerse oneself in in, full bore.

Of course, I would hate for my last, dying thought to be &quot;if I'd only had a gun.&quot;

BTW, I own a Spyderco Gunting, other knives, and several pistols.

I practice shooting my 9mm occasionally, but know nothing about the correct use and deployment of my knives.

For the good of the order, is there a website or other source to give me (and others) some idea as to how to use edged weapons correctly?

I may not live and breathe this hobby (my choice, it's fine if others do), but I probably should know a bit more about it...just in case.

[Mr. V]

Thanks for the replies; you guys are LEOs so of course, it makes sense for you to master this stuff.

Heck, I am not putting anybody down for being interested in this, my point though is that it probably isn't necessary to immerse oneself in in, full bore.

Of course, I would hate for my last, dying thought to be &quot;if I'd only had a gun.&quot;

BTW, I own a Spyderco Gunting, other knives, and several pistols.

I practice shooting my 9mm occasionally, but know nothing about the correct use and deployment of my knives.

For the good of the order, is there a website or other source to give me (and others) some idea as to how to use edged weapons correctly?

I may not live and breathe this hobby (my choice, it's fine if others do), but I probably should know a bit more about it...just in case.

[sks]

Mr. V

You're welcome over at www.CSSDSC.com

Plenty of MBC'ers over there.

Steve
------------------------
Warriors choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.

[mr. v]

&quot;Mr. V&quot;--

That's a catchy screen name.

Vince

[argyll]

Mr. V &lt;as opposed to &quot;mr. v&quot;&gt;

Your first post was rather troll-ish, especially because it was your first post to this forum. If you are serious about wanting to learn defensive techniques I'd suggest going back to read the many excellent prior postings by Michael Janich and others here. You might also want to check out www.selfdefenseforums.com, but I'd advise you to do lots of reading on that particular forum before posting there, as they do not suffer fools gladly.

A last bit of unsolicited advice, if you are planning to continue posting here at Spyderco, you might want to consider a new user name to avoid confusion.

Best regards,

Argyll

P.S. I've been in law enforcement and a civilian, and the only times I've actually felt that I might need to defend myself have been as a civilian.

Qui non est hodie cras minus aptus erit -- Ovid (He who is not prepared today will be less so tomorrow)

edited to correct the usual typos

Edited by - Argyll on 6/13/2004 3:26:52 PM

[Mr. V]

Thank you, and I will change my chosen name, perhaps to &quot;MissedHerVee.&quot;

[Jimd]

Mr. V. Posted: No perps have tried to mug me; no *actual* self-defense issues have presented themselves.

As a result, I feel there is little or no REAL NEED to learn these self-defense techniques.&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

Stop for a moment, Mr. V, and ask yourself this question: Where do you think all the people whom corrections officers such as myself guard all day come from?

I'll give you a few clues:
1. They don't come from Mars.
2. Or Venus
3. Or Pluto
4. Or China
5. Or Russia

They come from the street, sir. From the same streets that you walk. Perhaps from your very neighborhood, or most definitely from a neighborhood where you either walk or drive through.

Here's another heads-up for you: When a bad guy is planning on robbing/mugging/assaulting/killing you, he's not going to send you an appointment card so you can wear your Sunday-best for the occasion.

He's going to surprise you! Will you be ready?????

Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com

[jbake]

&lt;&lt;Never once has my life been threatened, nor has the life of my friends been threatened by robbers or other nefarious blackguards.

No perps have tried to mug me; no *actual* self-defense issues have presented themselves.

As a result, I feel there is little or no REAL NEED to learn these self-defense techniques.&gt;&gt;

Just a thought - I had never had a car accident until I was 21 years old. But, I dutifully wore my seat-belt every time I got into a car. I was certainly glad I did the day I was hit by another car.

If I ***knew*** I was going to be assaulted and have to defend myself on some particular day, I wouldn't leave the house.

Bad guys prey on people who they believe are unaware and unprepared.