Plain versus serrated in self defense

[Mr Blonde]

I have read some previous threads on this topic, but I am still not quite satisfied by the answers given, so here's my attempt.



I am interested in plaine versus serrated in the following situation:

- The knife is a folder, with a maximum 4 inch blade

- The knife will only be used for self defense, i.e. it will be kept sharp.

- The self defense style used with this blade focuses mainly on cutting and slashing type techniques.

- The intended purpose is to incapacitate an attacker, rather than trying to kill.

(note: I am not looking at, or particularly interested in a Civilian or Matriarch type knife, more of a 'regular' type utility knife)



What would be best for this type of blade, plain edge, or serrated?



And what do you think about the statement that a metallic buton, or buckle etc. can rake (and take) the entire edge of a plain edge, whereas a serrated blade would remain functional?



I realise that other aspects of self defense are much more important than plain vs. serrated, but still I am interested in your preferences.

Thanks,



Wouter

[Carlos]

I think that if your MBC folder is "self-defense only" and will see no day-to-day utility use, then I think fully serrated is the best choice:

1. Serrations will bite into and cut through tough materials (some types of clothing) that a plain edge will simply slide off of (especially when we are talking about small 4" or less folders with little mass for cleaving -- Chinook excepted -- and you are relying on slicing power).

2. Serrations are chisel ground at a more acute angle and thus a serrated blade is literally sharper than a comparable plain-edged blade. A serrated edge can use this more acute angle and yet be more durable than a more obtuse plain-edge.

If your MBC folder will serve double duty then it hangs more on your personal preference and what your day-to-day cutting tasks are, and what you find easier to keep super sharp (very important).

Another possibility to recall is the ability to put a rough edge on a non-serrated knife. So even if you prefer plain for utility, you can keep part of the "biting" ability of serrations.

Edited by - Carlos on 4/29/2001 5:05:23 PM

[vampyrewolf]

for the purposes of:
small(under 4&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>, slashing attacks, non-threatening(but can be)...

You may want to look at the Merlin and Harpy line.
Fully Serrated, easy to open and hold.

I would use fully serrated for a defense knife, as it would rip open both clothing and skin, making the attacker weak from loss of blood possibly?

Something like the C08(Harpy) line could be kept razor sharp with the 204, and the serrations would allow it to be sharp at all times(unless you can't even cut bread with it, and of course it needs to be sharpened).

Hope this helps. I'm getting a C08 as my next purchase anyways, just have to save up...

[Mancer]

In my own opinion Id say the serated blade would be the one, for the reason that if your attacker was wearing a jacket for example, the plain blade would be prone to slipping off where the serations would bite on through.

I own both the Mat and Civ as well as a few others like the Chin, if you not interested in stabbing and killing the guy but rather want to slash Id say you have no option but to get serations.

Seeya

MaNcEr

It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

[cerulean]

You have to wonder why there are so few serrated weapons throughout history. Almost all edged weapons you see are plain edged.

Remember, serrations are not a new thing. They were invented several thousand years ago. (Archeologists call serrated tools &quot;denticulates&quot;.)

Historical weapons with serrations do turn up every now and then, but it's really only in the last decade or two that knives with serrations have been marketed for combat use.

[cerulean]

Double Post.

Edited by - cerulean on 4/30/2001 5:35:51 AM

[Carlos]

Hi Cerulean,

Historical edged weapons: broadswords, long knives (sax, bowie), etc. Were plain edged because they were intended to cleave into the target. Cleaving is essentially a high power &quot;push cut.&quot; Push cuts are the domain of plain edges. Stabbing, a la rapier or dagger might also be considered a specialized form of push cut.

Historically, a small 3&quot; or 4&quot; blade does not really register on the scale of &quot;edged weapon.&quot; Small knives (under 6&quot; ) were utility knives. They have no power for cleaving and little reach for stabbing, and are used for low power, but easily controlled push cuts and slicing cuts for everyday tasks. Control is more important than power.

The self-defense folder is a modern creation with no historical precedent. Since a short bladed folder has neither the power to cleave nor the reach for effective stabbing (excepting throat and eyes), you are fored to rely on a draw cut (slicing), and draw cutting can be greatly enhanced by serrations -- especially versus tough and fibrous materials. A plain edge can draw cut nicely against flesh, but may slide over leather or clothing. Serrations will bite in and cut through.

Is there established historical precedence for serrations on blades intended for draw cuts against tough and fibrous materials? Yes: saws.

I am not a huge fan of serrations, but in this very specialized form and application I think they offer an advantage. As a chef I had a large kit of knives, some very specialized. Out of probably two dozen edged tools, only one had serrations. Likewise, almost all of my folders are plain edged, except for my Civilian and Matriarch, which are fully serrated.

Edited by - Carlos on 4/30/2001 10:05:48 AM

[earthworm]

One problem with serrated edged &amp; hawkbill-shaped blades is that of image.If you defend yourself with any weapon that weapon will be confiscated &amp; presented as evidence to law enforcement agencies &amp; juries,&amp; rest assured the lawyer against you will make much of 'this vicious knife designed only to kill.I ask you ladies &amp; gentlemen;what kind of person carries such a horrible weapon?'
Having said that I will say I carry the Harpy as a defensive knife.To paraphrase Jeff Cooper,&quot;Some people are so afraid of justifying their actions to a jury that when the flag flys they freeze.I suggest that that is Problem B;Problem A is surviving the encounter.Problem B can be damn serious,but let's put things in their proper order &amp; concentrate on Problem A.&quot;

[Scorpius711]

Carlos,
excellent response, I like the historical perspective.

Mr. Blonde, serrations are the way to go. Evolution has shown this to be true, examples: sharks have rows of regenerating serrated pointy triangles, plus the individual teeth have small serrations on the sides. Sabertooth tigers also had very small serrations on the side of their large teeth, according to the Discovery Channel.

Besides being more effective, a serrated cut hurts<img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> more than a plain edge. And pain must play a role in non-lethal use of a blade, my 2cts worth.


Edited by - Scorpius711 on 5/1/2001 6:11:22 AM

[Protector]

A slightly different perspective on historical serrated wepaons. The reason they were not more prevalent was back in the days of hand forging and filing they were a pain in the @ss to make and hard to keep sharp! My FMA instructors thesis was on wavy bladed/serrated weapons. Any culture that made combative weapons, made or tried some form of serrated weapon. The only ones that continued to use this blade style, did so because of a religous significance, like the keris.

[BRAM]

hmm Serrations..WHY? Cause they really cut..If they didn't Sal n SPYDERCO wouldn't use them..if you're going to keep it SPYDERCO Sharp..then go for serrations..more cutting edge per inch...

Serrations in the old day couldn't be resharpened, weren't easy to make and weren't modern day knives!
SPYDERCO sharp is it!!!!!
why even Gunting now can sport serrations.. I have one!!!!

[Mr Blonde]

Your replies have been very informative. You all have given me some good points to think about. Meanwhile, I have been conducting some very informal testing with two sharp delicas, one plain and the other serrated. I executed various cuts across rolled up newspaper loosely covered with T-shirt fabric. I found that both edges cut well into the material. Personally I felt that both edges cut equally 'deep'. The
serrated edge did 'catch' more into the material, producing a more ragged and aggressive looking cut. However, I appeared to feel more resistance executing the slash with the serrated edge. The serrated edge regularly 'snagged' a little during the cut. It felt as if the serrations were 'filling up' with the material being cut. The encountered resistance was by no means
serious enough to pull the knife out of my hands or anything. I suspect that the Civilian and Matriarch designs have thinner tips to counter this exact problem. But in the end, both edges performed well, with the serrated edge producing more drag/resistance. Objectively, I found that
both edges cut very well. Subjectively, I am inclined to stick with a well sharpened plain edge, as it did not produce any resistance while cutting. This sorta fits my
my trained fighting style, purely subjective mind you. Of course my 'tests' were perfomed on a very small scale, and would not hold up against any serious 'scientific' testing, but it did satisfy some of my own curiosity.
Therefore I can advise anyone with similar 'problems' to just go out there and do some testing, it's a lot of fun.

I am curious to the preferences for plain/serrated of Bram Frank, Michael Janich or Michael Keating for example. These are by all means, respected authorities with a lot of experience on MBC. Why did you/they chose plain edges for their designs? For example, the plain edged variants of the Gunting and Chinook came out first. Did this indicate an 'edge-preference' by the designers?
Thanks,

Wouter

[BRAM]

Without the help of a SHARPMAKER sharpener system I prefer a straight plain edge..its easier to sharpen...
If I can sharpen it ( the serrations) I prefer some serrations for SPYDERCO serrations don't catch if they're sharp..they just wizz through whatever is in their way...I prefer 60-40 or 50-50....

James Keating, &amp; Mike Janich will have to answer on their own...I wouldn't presume to speak for either of them...

I think Poppa Spyder prefers serrations...ROFL..just a guess!

[Scorpius711]

Mr. Blonde,
I would recomend that with whatever sharpening system you have. To use the coarsest grit it has, and put a rough edge on your blades. It won't shave hair(which is for push cuts), but will cut more aggresively on fiberous materials and will stay sharp longer.

Troy

[cerulean]

Mr. Blonde - Some thoughts about the resistance you felt while cutting through newspaper and t-shirts:

It seems that the optimum angle to use when cutting many things is to have the edge at 45 degrees to the material being cut, in the direction of the cut. If the angle is more acute, the edge will slide instead of cut. If the angle is more obtuse, there will be more drag and the edge will rip and tear instead of slice.

The nice thing about something like an upswept blade with a lot of belly is that you can keep the best angle as you stroke through the cut. On serrated knives though, the wavey edge prevents you from using the optimum angle, so you experience more drag.

By the way, on sickle shaped (or hawkbill or s-curve shaped) blades, there's going to be a lot of drag even if you have a plain edge. The theme of sickle shaped knives seems to be ripping, so maybe you might as well have serrations on those kinds of knives to help power through the cut.

Edited by - cerulean on 5/3/2001 4:12:06 AM

[Mr Blonde]

Thanks for the information. I'd like to emphasize that my 'test' was very informal, and my preference now for a (coarse) plain edge is mostly subjective. The serrated delica I used had its factory edge still on it, it's still shaving sharp. I don't know, maybe (when I get a spare delica ;-)) I'll do some other small tests on on other media. Including metal 'obstacles', to simulate hitting a buckle or button or something.

I have begun to get quite interested in Spyderco's testing on the Civilian's edge, when it was still in its development stage. Anyone know?

Wouter

[Michael Janich]

Dear Mr. Blonde:

My personal preference is a 50/50 mix. The serrations at the heel of the blade (the portion nearest the handle) begin the cut very aggressively, then give way to the plain edge to finish the cut. I've found this works very well when cutting through clothing and is a good compromise between aggressive cutting and snag-free cutting. However, it does require a good cutting stroke that hits with the heel first to create an automatic draw cut as the hand follows through. This technique by itself will help minimize - though not eliminate - snagging with fully serrated blades.

Your empirical testing method (actual cutting with the same knife design with different style edges) is by far the best way to find what's right for you. Weapon choice is a very personal thing and I feel strongly that anyone who carries a weapon should be thoroughly familiar with its use. Hats off to you for taking the time to do things right.

Thanks for valuing my opinion. I hope this information helps.



mike j

[Mr Blonde]

Thank you very much for your reply Michael Janich! The 50/50 serrated edge may not be the favorite edge for a knifeknut's utility folder. But I do get the impression that it can wrk for a defensive folder, as you have described. Mmm, seems like I have to get me a new Delica <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.

I am saving up for a (long) trip to the US, I am from Holland, once I finish my studies (Business Communications &amp; American Studies). I have already reserved a visit to Golden in my planning. I hope to attend an MBC course, and maybe meet some of you in person then.

Thanks,

Wouter

[Mancer]

Now this was a bloody good post, very interesting and informative, I never really thought of weapons in the good ol days in that light.

Bram Ill definately agree on the serations/Sharpmaker comment.
I gave my Civie 20 strokes last night(10 each side) to sharpen the serations and gawd they are scary, tip is needle sharp and serations bite like a bunch of cannibals,lol

Gr8 post guys

seeya

MaNcEr

It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

Edited by - MaNcEr on 5/11/2001 7:36:24 AM

[knifenerd]

I agree that serrations are the way to go. If it gets &quot;down and dirty&quot;, the serrated edge will simply cause more mayhem and trauma.

Dick

[PAT]

I WORK IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AT AN AIRPPORT.
I LIKE SERRATED BLADES BUT AIRLINES DONT. SOME&quot;EXPERT&quot; WENT AROUND AND CONVINCED ALOT OF THE AIRLINES IN THE US THAR SERRATED BLADES ARE DANGEROUS AND COULD BE USED TO CUT THROUGH THE SKIN OF AN AIRCRAFT. MOST AIRLINES WILL NOT ALLOW SERRATED BLADES AS
A RESULT. THE FAA HAS NO SUCH RESTRICTION BUT THE AIRLINS CAN MAKE THERE OWN REGULATIONS. THE FAA SAYS THAT 4 INCH BLADES
ARE OK BUT SOME AIRLINES SET A LIMIT OF 3 IN.
CHECKING WITH YOUR AIRLINES MAY NOT HELP THIS ANY AS THE SECURITY CHECKPOINTS ARE RUN BY VARIOUS AIRLINES NOT THE AIRPORT OR FAA. YOUR AIRLINE MAY SAY YOUR KNIFE IS OK BUT WHEN YOU GET TO THE CHECKPOINT THEY WILL NOT LET IT THROUGH. AT A NEARBY AIRPORT ON ONE SET OF GATES A 4 IN SERRATED KNIFE WILL GO THROUGH WITH OUT A PROBLEM, AT ANOTHER SET OF GATES RUN BY ANOTHER AIRLINE, ANYTHING OVER 3 INCHES OR ANY SERRATIONS WILL GET YOU
TURNED AWAY. THIS IS IN THE SAME AIRPORT. SOUTHWEST AIRLINES HAS THE MOST RESTRICTIONS.
HOPE THIS HELPS AND HOPE YOU ENJOY YOUR TRIP.
FOR FLYING I HAVE A NATIVE LIGHT.

[PAT]

Edited by - admin on 5/15/2001 11:12:03 PM

[PAT]

Edited by - admin on 5/15/2001 11:12:52 PM

[PAT]

Edited by - admin on 5/15/2001 11:14:03 PM

[PAT]

Edited by - admin on 5/15/2001 11:15:09 PM

[knifenerd]

Same error message-posting probs.

Dick

[Allen E. Treat]

Dear Mr. Blonde ;
If it's of any help I
read in a Martial Arts magazine about
serrated edge(s) and self defense. The
article was by Lynn C. Thompson ( forgive
me Sal ! ) who explained that a serrated
edge has three (3) times the cutting
power of a conventional edge ! Mr. Thompson is President of Cold Steel Inc.
so I believe he knows his business, he
also has classes for self defense that
bear out the serrated blade as &quot;best choice&quot; for self defense. The thing is, is
that he advocates that the blade be at
least 4&quot; ( which I disagree on ). And, his company doesn't produce a tactile
wonder such as the Spyderco &quot;Cricket&quot;
( which I own ).
Just a thought.

Sincerely,

A.E.T

[sal]

Well, you sucked me in. Some more info to share.

in the &quot;Old days&quot; damascus was considered to be superior cutting where it was used. A typical example would be the Vikings. Their damascus swords were devastating. It is my opinion that damascus, once etched and used will create a situation where the softer steel at the edge gives way to the harder steel which ultimately creates a serrated edge, and that's why they cut better.

BTW Lynn Thompson is a friend of mine and actually did some of the testing with the Civilian while in Australia.

I use, enjoy and appreciate both plain and serrated edges. It depends on where I am and what I'm cutting. for EDC with the protos that I'm always carrying, I prefer a plain edge. It lets me study the cutting performance of the proto more acurately.

sal