Give me a break

[severedthumbs]

I hate these kind of tests.
http://www.emersonknives.com/pics/knives.jpg

[HoB]

Oh no you are NOT going to warm this picture up again!!!

Sal's response was pretty much: Yes, praybars tend to be less prone to breaking than knives.

'Nuf said.

[severedthumbs]

yeah I know, ole Ernie has posted this elsewhere in support of his knives. I have also noted that the ATR broke at the weakest point of the blade, so what is the point? Also prybars are much softer than knife blades. I think these kind of tests are st00pid. I never pry anything wis my knives.

[Hannibal Lecter]

I hardly see where these tests have any correlation with the real world. Knives are not, by design, prying instruments; they are cutting instruments. Ever try to use a crescent wrench for a hammer?

I do not EVER subject a knife blade to such horrible abuse. There are tools designed for those jobs, and a knife is a poor substitute for them under the best of circumstances.

That being said, my Spydies *cut* wonderfully...

[Jimd]

It's true that knives are designed to cut things, and do nothing else.

However, some knives are made with the idea in mind that occasionally, depending on your circumstances or occupation, you might have to ask more of your knife than just cutting.

Many of us in law enforcement or military have had to use our knives for some pretty radical tasks on occasion, and we're glad when we have one that will not only survive, but excel at these tasks. Digging, prying, hammering...that's not what knives were designed for originally, but at times, we have no choice.

By the way, I'm not an Emerson representative....:)

[Jimmy_Dean]

Wow, even a Boker Kal...
Anyonw who does that kind of testing on a knife, thinking it's a real life situation or of any value has the IQ of a shrimp. Show me some cutting and I'll be listening, after all, that's what knives are made for!

[Hannibal Lecter]

Many of us in law enforcement or military have had to use our knives for some pretty radical tasks on occasion, and we're glad when we have one that will not only survive, but excel at these tasks. Digging, prying, hammering...that's not what knives were designed for originally, but at times, we have no choice.

I believe it is referred to as "field expediency," and I agree wholeheartedly that necessity will lead you to use whatever is handy to accomplish your goals by any means necessary.

My only argument is that I fail to see where test results of such a nature should be used as more than a passing criteria for knife selection for the average civilian. It seems unfair to subject a knife capable of holding a razor's edge, capable of beautiful precision cuts, perfect of balance and lovely to behold, to abuses it is not designed for and claim it is somehow inferior to a tool designed to withstand such abuses.

[Senate]

I don't think the ATR was the best Spyderco candidate for this kind of test but the fact is: Emerson's not here to demonstrate the quality of Spyderco knives... ;)

[Jimd]

Okay, I agree that all knives are not made to withstand abuses such as prying, digging, etc., and to compare knives that were made for such duties is kind of like comparting apples to oranges.

Do "regular" civilians need knives that can be battered/abused? Depends on what you're activities are. I think many people could use such a knife. Camping and vigorou outdoor activities come to mind. If I were going into the wilderness, I'd definitely have such a knife along.

To me, there's something appealing about having a knife that can be brutally abused and neglected, and still maintain a razor edge.

Delicate knives that make precision cuts are nice, too, and I carry them. The problem is that their delicacy can, at times, be a drawback.

[Zrexxer]

Well if that's Emerson's promotion, the unbroken CRKT in the pic too doesn't exactly lend an exceptional sense of quality to the survivors.

[thombrogan]

I thought it was a great test. Aside from price and not surviving the prybar test, the ATR (aka Salbenza) was best in class for most everything else. Blop/overseas also made a great observation: the knives that broke had more screws stabilizing the handle than the ones which didn't break (possible exception being the CRKT which was chosen by the reviewers as the top knife in their test). So the test showed that the Salbenza, Kalishnakov, and the Elishewitz design transfer force from the handle into the blade (if you're prying with the blade, this is a desired behavior) while the other knives tended to have a "what happens in the handle stays in the handle" behavior (good if you like your blade, but questionable if your approach to prying is practical). That said, I think that the Buck knife would've held up even if its handle was as stabilized as the sliceliscious Salbenza.

[Stevie Ray]

Prying is one thing ...., and I suppost there are tests for that. The test I'm aware of that Spyderco conducts is on blade-lock strength. Does Spyderco also conduct a "pry" test ?? That's news to me.

Allright ... more here on this edit .... Who uses an expensive knife to pry with when screwdrivers are almost EVERYWHERE ..... sorry .. but ... :confused:

[hawkbill]

I have to admit, there was a time that it seemed like a good idea to have a sharp tool which might be pressed into service as a prybar in an emergency. To meet this perceived need, I bought a Becker Rescue Dive Tool. Now, it definitely can't ride on my person, so it sits in my gear bag in my car. Some may want to carry a folding sharpened-prybar, but not me.

[GarageBoy]

Guys, the test wasn't done by Emerson. He's just happy it survived. (And BM's replacement for his CQC7 didn't)

[Senate]

The Bench and the ATR don't play in the same category as the others, they should have taken the 630 Skirmish for Bench and a Military or a Lum tanto folder for Spyderco... I bet you the result wouldn't be the same. ;)

only compare what is comparable.

[Jimd]

Does Spyderco also conduct a "pry" test ?? That's news to me.

Allright ... more here on this edit .... Who uses an expensive knife to pry with when screwdrivers are almost EVERYWHERE ..... sorry .. but ... :confused:

For some reason, many here seem to be against rugged types of knives that are built to withstand hard use and abuse.

As for screwdrivers being "everywhere"....that might be debatable. If you're out in the middle of nowhere, it's possible that you won't find a screwdriver lying around. Your knife might just be the only tool you have with you at the time. Personally, I'd take comfort in knowing that at least one of the knives that I have with me will take any and all abuse that I throw at it, and continue to function.

[fret]

I don't see a Boker Kal 74 in the pix but I think I do see a Boker Magnum tanto PS there. By the way what type of envelope was he trying to open? This thought came to me just as I saw the pix. Just kidding. I have never used any knife to pry with. I did break an Imperial hunting knife blade by chopping one time on a small log. I think it had a flaw in the steel? Who did the test if you don't mind me asking?

[Fozzy]

If you want a pocket size pry tool, I can heartily recommend Knifemaker Peter Atwood's PryBabies. It's got a bottle opener too although I have no idea what that would be used for... :p

[severedthumbs]

it is from that messer magazine. some german thing.

[severedthumbs]

http://www.emersonknives.com/pics/results.jpg

[Stevie Ray]

For some reason, many here seem to be against rugged types of knives that are built to withstand hard use and abuse.

As for screwdrivers being "everywhere"....that might be debatable. If you're out in the middle of nowhere, it's possible that you won't find a screwdriver lying around. Your knife might just be the only tool you have with you at the time. Personally, I'd take comfort in knowing that at least one of the knives that I have with me will take any and all abuse that I throw at it, and continue to function.

Jim,

OK ... that is a good point ... I haven't given this whole topic enough thought, but does it beg the question about carrying a Spydierench / leatherman ... or similar ...? I like knives that can take it .... It just seems that many that we use and collect on this Forum are good for cutting, but not as general purpose tools. And yep .. I'm guilty of giving some of my knives the museum treatment ... for right or wrong... I dunno ...

I know you're a Native fan ... as am I ... could we bring ourselves to pry with a Native ... :confused: .. I guess I would if I had too. jeeze ... Hell ... I'd pry with any of them if I had to ... I guess we all would ...

Good counterpoint.

[thombrogan]

Does Spyderco also conduct a "pry" test ?? That's news to me.

I don't think Spyderco does nor do they need to. Messer magazine did and I found it interesting, especially in light of Blop's comments.


only compare what is comparable.

Who says they didn't? All of the knives in the comparison are 'tactical' knives. As long as no one blurts out a clear definition of a tactical knife (aside from Mr. Perrin ;) ), it's open to anyone's interpretation. Hopefully, it doesn't just mean 'weapon' as there are plenty of screwdrivers and pencils around.

Officer Fozzy made a great point. Pry with Atwood Solar Arc folders, er, um, his Prybabies!

[klattman]

One can hardly expect a knife to pry well if it is useful for slicing. For slicing and general cutting, you need a thin blade, for prying you ned a thick blade. So what? A thick blade won't cut through things worth a ____. If you need prying, get a multitool, atwood prybaby or a thick style tanto etc. to carry ALSO.
:D

[HoB]

Oh well, since this topic is taking off anyway:

My $0.02: The knives compared didn't even have the same blade thickness. Some had a distal taper others didn't, they obviously had different blade widths one inch from the tip (where they were clamped into the vice) and they were tempered to different hardness as well. So you are comparing apples and oranges. I believe two of the knives that survived had a (slightly) bend blade and didn't fare as well as the ATR (3mm blade thickness) in the test were the blade was put in the vice one inch from the pivot (essentially a test of the pivot).

Blade magazine has currently an article that a certified bladesmith has to be able to forge a blade that can be bend by 90 deg without undue damage so it is certainly possible to do that (and it attests to the quality of the bladesmith not the knife). The question though is, how well such a knife will cut and for how long. Every knife is obviously a trade off and it is up to the knife maker to decide where to put the trade off. All in all, Spyderco has choosen a trade-off that I have come to like. I also believe that a Lil'T (4mm, distal taper but very wide blade) or a Chinook (4mm, no distal taper (?)), might have turned out a bit differently.

I mean, I truely admire a knife like the Stryder which obivously follows different design parameters and consequently so. But the fact alone that they don't even bother to sharpen the front edge speaks volumes about the "razor" qualities of such a knife. I don't mean to ditch the Buck Styder at all. Actually I really like the mini Stryder, but it is not and never was meant to be a Calypso.

I thought that Spyderco actually avoided the term "tactical knife"?

[GarageBoy]

Any knife can be used tactically =D
That's why we need two knives, one for slicing and one for heavy duty tasks

[klattman]

IMHO, The smaller the blade, the harder it should be since you will only use it to cut. You would use it more often and constant sharprning is annoying. A larger blade needs to be slightly softer, so you can chop, pry or use it on thicker or tougher materials. Also big thick knives are not meant to take a thin-beveled edge, which is the real advantage of harder/better steel.

This doesn't seem to hold true in sales though, since most "Tactical" buyers want the knife with the hardest, most expensive steel, and most small folders have softer steel ( :spyder: being the exception with VG10 on many smaller models).

[Jimd]

I mean, I truely admire a knife like the Stryder which obivously follows different design parameters and consequently so. But the fact alone that they don't even bother to sharpen the front edge speaks volumes about the "razor" qualities of such a knife.


One blade profile of Strider does not have a sharpened frontal edge, and that is their tanto. It's not meant to be sharp up front; it's meant to penetrate steel/metal/anything at all.

Every other Strider model is extremely sharp, you can rest assured of that. I have several, and they are all extremely sharp, and range in cutting efficiency from fair to outstanding.

I have three Striders that are of the drop-point design, flat-ground, and they will cut every bit as well as any of my knives that I own, including my Spydies.

Now the Spydies offer the thinnner blade, as was pointed out, for more precision. I like them all, even though each is different.

[Jimd]

Jim,

I like knives that can take it .... It just seems that many that we use and collect on this Forum are good for cutting, but not as general purpose tools. And yep .. I'm guilty of giving some of my knives the museum treatment ... for right or wrong... I dunno ...

I know you're a Native fan ... as am I ... could we bring ourselves to pry with a Native ... :confused: .. I guess I would if I had too. jeeze ... Hell ... I'd pry with any of them if I had to ... I guess we all would ...

Good counterpoint.

Steve,
I certainly wouldn't want to have to pry with my Native. It's just not built for that. Despite that, I love the design dearly, as you well know. :)

As for the museum treatment...you certainly aren't wrong for giving some of your blades that type of treatment. If it's "right" for you, that's all that matters.

Personally, I don't have any knives that get the "safe queen" treatment; all mine are users, and I love them all.

Your point is well taken; the user has to take into account how the knife is built and intended to be used, and use them accordingly, unless there's no other choice.

I like many flavors of knives. The Spydies, which are more precise and refined, are great. The Striders, which are brutish and wild, are also great (for me). But the Striders aren't only "sharpened prybars"; some of them have very efficiently-cutting blades, in addition to being amazingly resilient.

I'm just a variety guy; no one-flavor ice cream parlor for this man! :D