A moderator with moderation?

[kudzu74]

Okay, I admit that this is for the phun of it though I'm seriously displease with the decor used by a certain individual given the authority to moderate for the company forum unless of course he/she is an employee. I have to admit that I am somewhat aware of the rules and regulations here about selling and trading on this specific forum. I notice a thread the other day from another forumie requesting to find a certain knife. A knife in question I had in which that person wanted a swap. I posted a reply asking for that individual to Private Message me here or email me. I didn't know that pushed the selling/trading policy and got a rather sharp (PM) from Carlos on the issue and a threat to ban me from this forum if anything of the sort ever happened again. I was not the generator of the thread, but I didn't think responding to it to bring the contact elsewhere was a problem. The PROBLEM I have now is the tact used in handling the matter by the moderator. In the past, I have contacted the moderator on the other forum about knives being sold and never was even given the time of day. Pretty much I've not had once decent experience other then a direct answer on some questions regarding the spyderco collectors' program from him. It really chaps my backside that the matter was handled this way. However, I can only say that I hope it can be done with moderation in the future and not so much blunt force. Anyhow, I just had to vent, grip, whine, call it what you will, but I've said my piece and with all said and done I don't think there is a place on this new website that lists all the rules or regulations which I will be checking on so as to have more of an awareness of the do's and don'ts here. If it was with the agreement when we signed up I honestly cannot remember all that it entailed...but I hope it is posted somewhere at least or there is gonna be some explaining to do, Lucy! :rolleyes:

:spyder: NOTE: THIS IS NOT MENT TO BE A PERSONAL ATTACK...ANY ABOVE COMMENTS ARE STRICTLY THE POSTERS AND NO ONE ELSES...SPYDERCO HOLDS NO LIABILITY FOR WHAT HAS BEEN PROJECTED, ASSUMED, OR DENIAL OF ACTUAL FACTS! HAVE A NICE DAY... :) :spyder:

[Carlos]

How is responding to a for trade/sale any less a violation of the rules than posting a for sale /trade? Your behaviour puts Spyderco in a bad position. Period. You got away with it since I was away from my computer for a few hours when the for trade post was made.

This has occured before with a few of regular participants on this forum. They too usually got away with it, managing to make the sale or trade before I could terminate the post.

Henceforth, you get warning, and then that's it. You remember the Spyderco motto? "Integrity is being good when no one is watching."

[swede]

With 127 posts, how could you not know the rules?

Dave

[Senate]

Your behaviour puts Spyderco in a bad position.

I'm rather new to this forum and I've been warned too so:

Can you tell us why is trading/selling forbidden?
Can you explain us how Spyderco would suffer from that?

(I'm just asking, not disputing or raising an objection...)

[kudzu74]

O, so you are the judge advocate now...perhaps if we had some lawyers in the house to chime in on this issue. There is a difference in my opinion. The thread was not closed at the time nor was it closed a few hours afterwards from what I remember of the thread. However, you admit that I do not regularly participate here. I did reread the rules and saw nothing in violation of a response to such a post only to the individual that starts the thread. I don't think all the individuals who posted on that thread recieved a rude private message from the moderator. Your private message was not done in moderation but was percieved that what I did was unexcusable and I should be punished yada yada yada followed by a threat of being banned from this forum. I think you need to take a step back and look at how you personally handled the matter. I'm not saying that I shouldn't have been warned on the matter. I am saying what you did and how you did it was inappropriate and probably just as bad as the rule you claim that I broke. Look at #1! Anyhow, I do have to say a mouse for a mouse was not a bad way to go! So suit yourself I'll not post here any more with a moderator like you in charge nor on bladeforums. Perhaps you should think how your actions come across to others before you chase more people off who come here simply to support, discuss, and meet other Spyderco enthuasists. Laterz tator! Me and my mouse are outta this house... :p

:spyder: IF THIS POST OFFENDED YOU IN ANYWAY...GOOD IT SHOULD...AND YOU'LL PROBABLY CLOSE AND DELETE IT ANYWAYS :spyder:

[4 s ter]

OK, I have to add my 2 cents worth on this topic. Since Sal decided to trust Carlos with the duties of "co-moderator" of this Forum I have seen him do it thoughfully, fairly and with restraint. Moderation is usually a thankless job, so I'm going to thank Carlos for doing what, in my opinion, is a great job of moderating this Forum!!!

I have noticed an increase in the "for sale or trade" type postings in recent months. Most of us who have been around for some time (longer than the September 2004 that the Forum rebuild gave us) know of the unwritten rule prohibiting these. I was surprized when the Forum was rebuilt, that this rule wasn't formalized in the published guidelines. Maybe this should be corrected.

Thanks again Carlos!

David

[thom lambert]

Kudzu,
Perhaps Carlos was not as polite as you would have liked, but you escalated the situation by posting a personal gripe on this public forum. If you have an issue with the tone that Carlos used with you, you really should take that up with him in private. Bringing it up here, in full view, causes me to question your motives.

Thom

[Carlos]

I'm rather new to this forum and I've been warned too so:

Can you tell us why is trading/selling forbidden?
Can you explain us how Spyderco would suffer from that?

(I'm just asking, not disputing or raising an objection...)

#1: Legal liability. Spyderco becomes legally liable for transactions made through its website. Liability disclaimers only go so far and do not prevent lawsuits.

#2: Spyderco's relationship with its dealers and distributors. Ever wonder why SFO sells knives at full retail? To support and protect its dealers. Allowing the selling and trading of knives on this forum bewteen private collectors and some web savy internet dealers, would seriously undermine the relationship between Spyderco and its brick and mortar network of dealrs, and ultimately weaken a small company like Spyderco. I'd like to underscore the point that internet dealers are not allowed to sell here either. Private individuals are not being singled out. There is a Spyderco distributor that got a notice just like anyone else, though I also referred the issue up to Sal himself.

Furthermore, there is a 100% free trading forum at Bladeforums, and free selling and trading at any other number of websites. I've also said like a hundred times that it is very easy to set up a free forum on the internet at places like Network54, where if you guys choose you could sell and trade as many Spydercos as you like. So far no one wants the responsibility or to undertake the legal liability, or to undertake the massive workload of moderating a selling/trading forum.

In the end this is a manufacturer's website, and this is a discussion forum for informational purposes only.

[Carlos]

I would add that the prohibition of commercial and barter transactions is implicit in the prohibition of "soliciting," which is in the Forum Guidlelines. However I think that this is may be a bit legalese for many people and I've asked Joyce to clarify things in an absolutely unambiguous way in the Guidelines.

Thanks David. :)

[Zrexxer]

I personally think Carlos has been doing a good job too. It's a lot of work and tends to be thankless.

If Spyderco does decide to look at clarifying the Forum Guidleines, there are other things there that don't seem to make sense. For example:

"Do not transmit via Spyderco Forum any information, data, text, files, links, software, chat, communication or other materials."

Isn't that pretty much what we do in every single thread? :p

[silverback]

kudzu74 said it best, what he does is whine.
IMHO creating a thread about this is bad style.
It's a private matter that doesn't need public attention.
Are you a little kid that calls a lot of friends for support when in trouble?

That said, Carlos seems to do a good job, thanks! :)

[v34]

Mmm, I appear to be the one who started this problem and from my perspective no malice or rule-breaking was intended. The post was up for several days, possibly weeks, with no negative feedback or replies. I have received no warnings or emails and am more at fault than kudzu74. My only intention was an inter-collector swap rather than an easy sale on eBay. I have a fairly defined sense of right and wrong and it appears to me that clear 'yes or no' on the forum rules would have prevented me from proceeding with what I had done. The fallout also appears to have exceeded the 'crime' with bad feeling all around. Not my intention.

[Senate]

#1: Legal liability. Spyderco becomes legally liable for transactions made through its website. Liability disclaimers only go so far and do not prevent lawsuits.

#2: Spyderco's relationship with its dealers and distributors. Ever wonder why SFO sells knives at full retail? To support and protect its dealers. Allowing the selling and trading of knives on this forum bewteen private collectors and some web savy internet dealers, would seriously undermine the relationship between Spyderco and its brick and mortar network of dealrs, and ultimately weaken a small company like Spyderco. I'd like to underscore the point that internet dealers are not allowed to sell here either. Private individuals are not being singled out. There is a Spyderco distributor that got a notice just like anyone else, though I also referred the issue up to Sal himself.

Furthermore, there is a 100% free trading forum at Bladeforums, and free selling and trading at any other number of websites. I've also said like a hundred times that it is very easy to set up a free forum on the internet at places like Network54, where if you guys choose you could sell and trade as many Spydercos as you like. So far no one wants the responsibility or to undertake the legal liability, or to undertake the massive workload of moderating a selling/trading forum.

In the end this is a manufacturer's website, and this is a discussion forum for informational purposes only.

Ok thanks for the update and for what you're doing Carlos.

[John F Jensen]

I'm not taking sides, only trying to understand the complaint.

kadzu74 said, "The PROBLEM I have now is the tact used in handling the matter by the moderator."

It seems he didn't like Carlos' threats or attitude. If his paraphrase of Carlos' PM is accurate there's no crime in objecting to it.

In all of Carlos' responses he did not speak to kadzu74's, "The PROBLEM I have now is the tact used in handling the matter by the moderator." I wonder why?

mod-er-a-tor (mod-ratr) n. 1. One that moderates, as: One that arbitrates or mediates. One who presides over a meeting, forum, or debate.

Again, if kadzu74's account is accurate, Carlos did a little more than moderate.

Some time back I had a similar PM from Carlos and it struck me the same way it struck kadzu74. I let it go and chalked it up to Carlos' lack of "customer relations training/knowledge/ability".

:D

[John F Jensen]

Carlos,

Be truthfull with those that read your stuff.

Above you said, "#2: Spyderco's relationship with its dealers and distributors. Ever wonder why SFO sells knives at full retail? To support and protect its dealers. etc"

Have you looked at their knives on "special"? They are selling knives to the public at less than they charge distributors or dealers. As low as 72% off retail. That's not "at full retail". You need to get your facts straight!

:(

[severedthumbs]

I feel that if a member tries to resolve an issue privately to no avail, then it is time for the to become public knowledge.

[ChrisArc]

I never really post anything on these forums but Ive been lurkin around for a long time and kudzu's post really caught my eye. IMHO Carlos seems to be a very bitter and bland person with no sense of humor or tact. I invest alot of money in spyderco products and one of reasons I dont post here is because of him. By the way Carlos according to the rules of this forum Im not breaking any rules by posting this reply. Do as you wish.

[ChrisArc]

Just a little something to add to my last reply. I have a close relatve who is an EMT commander (not sure if this is the right terminology for his position, but Iknow he's high on the chain) where I live and he sometimes purchases 20 or 30 spydies at a time for his men. Ive been to many local charity events held by the local fire dept and the subject of spydies and this forum always arises. I have to say that many have the same opinion of Carlos as I do and Decline to ever post anything. Its a shame. but I will continue to purchase Spyderco product as they are top notch.

[severedthumbs]

Hmmm, seems this may be a bigger problem than many of you may have realized.

[4 s ter]

Warning - rant mode on! :mad:

This is one thread that I don't think is contributing anything to this forum and damaging much. People who never post complaining about moderation and claiming that "many" share the opinion. People who know the rules of this Forum complaining about the manner they were reminded of them.

I suggest that people think about whether their posts contribute to the Forum or are just a venting. Does anyone else feel they want to invest the time or energy doing the moderation - Sal found he didn't have the time.

John, with all respect (and I do mean that) how would you have handled the issue? That's a rhetorical question and I don't expect it answered here.

ChrisArc and severedthumbs - if as you suggest, the problem is bigger than many realize (including me) then I guess we'll see lots of "piling on" here. Which again won't contribute anything to this Forum and will only detract from it. If the purpose is to pursuade others to stop posting here then I guess that is one strategy - promote dissatisfaction.

* Rant mode off!

We, as a Forum, can do better than this! With that said, I won't post anything else to maintain this thread.

David

[severedthumbs]

Well personally I dont have a problem here and have only been welcomed with open arms. Just hoping that everyone dosent jump on this guy for expressing the problem he is having. Sorry if I came across in the wrong way.

[java]

I don't have a dog in this hunt but I notice times when Carlos ' replies catch me a bit off guard as well. I also notice remarkable restraint and a level approach regarding most subjects that require his moderational hand. Even the best of moderators has that personal stamp bleed through once in a while. I'm like John Jensen and usually chalk it up to experience (mine or the moderator's) and a lack thereof. I will often put myself in the moderator's thankless job and wonder if I could have done any better. The answer is usually no.

It would be nice to have all the Forum rules handy and maybe the Sell and Trade rules should be posted since this is the most frequent violated. A moderator's job is sometimes like a jurist in a highly publicized trial. The public has its opinions about what is filtered out in the public forum and may not agree with the verdict however the public doesn't get the instructions to the jury to guide their decision making and is not bound to act in accordance with them. But as a rule this is a very well behaved and self-policed forum with most members exercising a degree of civility and respect for other folks views and opinions that is not seen on other forums.

At any rate it is good to air differences and questions as is being done here as long as you back off the ad hominin (personal) attacks and opinions. To say someone is a whiner or to state your opinion about a moderator as seeming to be a very bitter and bland person with no sense of humor or tact crosses the line of respect and civility whether you buy one or all of the Spydies. Unless a moderator is constantly in your grill and is berating you incessantly for no reason, the fact that one recognizes and buys a quality product with matching support has no relation to comments expressed on a user Forum regarding the moderator’s personal characteristics. We can air our diffences and work toward clarification and understanding without slinging personal mud here.

Along with my $.02 (based on 1972 dollars) contribution, I would like to add my thanks to Carlos, Joyce, and Sal for the fine job they do overseeing and moderating the Forum as well as to the people that make up the Forum. A lot of folks are quick to point out the sales rules before any mod mentions it. Y'all do a good job and even in our differences manage to keep it fairly civil. Good on yas! Enjoy the weekend, and keep on keepin' it respectable.

j

[sod]

IMHO, This website, for better or worse is the face of Spyderco and all of its employees. As such I would either hire a professional "people person" to moderate it, or at the very least develop the moderators "people skills". I am not the most personable person on the net, by a long shot, I would never hire anyone like me. If this were my company I would want that guy that everyone likes as moderator. Someone like Ted or Jlano, Joyce (spelling) or Samosaurus.
It seems like spyderco hired Grumpy as apposed to Sleepy, Doc or even Dopey.
One mans opinion, but it is marketing 101...
Mike

[swede]

Wait.

This all started because one member, who months ago took out his personal gripes with the Spyderco collector program for I forget what reason, now started a whine thread because he was spoken to badly. Well, he did somethng wrong. He's been around enough (>150 posts as I recall) to know it was wrong. I know this rule, and I'll bet 98% of you do too.

A good morerator is largly invisible. I think Carlos does a good job.

Just my opinion,
Dave

[Jimmy_Dean]

I'll only participate to this thread by saying it has been dragged long enough.
Wherever you go, there are rules and people in charge of making sure everybody respect them.
Did Carlos use too much muscle in his reply?
Do you have a problem with authority?
bit of both?
I honnestly don't care. This is a very nice place to share infos, chat with people. There are other places to trade and sell. End of the freaking debate.

-Dean

Edit to add I think Carlos does a very fine job and thanks bro for doing the dirty job I wouldn't have time or patience to do.

[The Deacon]

Amen Swede. Carlos, just a short word of thanks to you. I know from experience that trying to enforce even minimal rules on the internet is a thankless task at best.

[J Smith]

OK I wasn't going to but I guess I will give a penny or two.
All Kudzu did was reply to the thread started by someone else.
This all might have been avoided if he had contacted him with out posting in the thread but still the thread was open when he did post and had been open for quite some time with other replies in it.
It would be a simple matter to put a stcky at the top of the forums with the rules and maybe a link to Bladeforums and knifeforums.
IMO the PM to Kudzu with a threat of banning was too much.Some of you guys may remember threads about the cutting up of people (hanabal SP?)and the murdering of forumites children(don't remember who) and general trolling just to stir up a fight (Caleb).None of these that I remember where banned.If someone is banned over a trade thread and not over stuff like this,well thats just wrong.

[Stevie Ray]

IMHO ... there is nothing more that can be said here that will help any of us in the long run. Let's quit before this becomes more than it needs to be..

Since all the involved parties have received a message / signal of a sort, ..... perhaps .... we should just let this rest before someone says something that becomes a bit to permanent.

Is my thinking off base ???


Sometimes ... less is more.

[swede]

Amen, wise Steve.

Dave

[Carlos]

IMO the PM to Kudzu with a threat of banning was too much.Some of you guys may remember threads about the cutting up of people (hanabal SP?)and the murdering of forumites children(don't remember who) and general trolling just to stir up a fight (Caleb).None of these that I remember where banned.If someone is banned over a trade thread and not over stuff like this,well thats just wrong.

FWIW, we didn't have the tech in place with the old forum software to effectively enfore a ban. We do now.

Further, if anyone has complaints about me then realistically they should be applied directly to Sal (salglesser@spyderco.com) and/or Joyce (jlaituri@spyderco.com). It is their forum, not mine. I try to run it the way I think Sal would like it run. Firm anough to keep it on track, without being quite as authoritarian as someplace like Bladeforums for example.

In the end I am not a Spyderco employee, just a friend of Sal and of Spyderco.

[kudzu74]

Okay, I have been watching what has been posted on this matter. It seems to me the point of the whole post has been misdirected all together. Carlos has danced around answering the real question at hand and decidedly given justification for his moderation which I never argued about in the first place. I had a PROBLEM with what he did and how he did it after the fact. I never said that he was a bad moderator or that he doesn't do his voluntary job. I do appreciate someone taking the time to moderate I know I cannot do it. Though I am concerned as a fellow forumie and spyderco enthuasist that he went about it with the wrong method or at least the wrong tact. I cut and pasted part of a PM on another forum that I am involved in that I sent in response to another forumie here who I know fairly well we are on several forums together where spyderco knives are the topic. In the following reply I am referring to here, as well as, on Bladeforums where I am a supporter and paying member. As for the comment on my opinion of the spyderco collector program...well you can join and have your own on that...once again, that was not the issue at hand though its something that was brought up because of some kinks in the works and trying to find a way to solve the matter. Basically, I think my whole sentiment of this matter has been paraphrase in the following: Perhaps, I wanted to see what others thought and if they have had any similiar disputes or problems. What I had in mind was for the good of the forum because I don't want people chased off, and I love informative discussion of issues good or bad wether I agree or disagree on the matter.

PLEASE READ THIS:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, I'm not really leaving the forum there and on bladeforums as much as not posting. I've had several experiences like this with Carlos. If it was the first time I would not have made public the issue of how he carries himself. However, I've recieved dings from him on BF for other posts such as the bad communication with the collectors' program among other things. I also have tried to contact him through the BF for knives he was selling and not one time recieved a thumbs up or down by him on a sale. Or rather no response at all like he ignored me. I think if you check the thread currently you will notice V34's post...he was the guy I swapped mice with and the originator of the post. Carlos did not even PM him on the matter at all. So whatsup with that...which was exactly my point on the whole matter. If you are a moderator you warn someone if they are out of line and move on from the issue. He however made it personal by threating to ban me, and I was not even the originator of the post and even the part I posted on the thread was to take it somewhere else away from Spyderco's website and forum. I asked V34 to email me or send me a PM with his email. The thread was up for days...not hours so basically Carlos is full of crap on that matter. Its sorta like he has a personal grudge against me and for what I do not know. Anyhow, I'm sorry for ramblin' on like that...the matter is handled and dealt with for now on my part. Perhaps in the future I may post there, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basically, I've said my peace and its done with...I was just trying to get Carlos to have an awareness of how he comes across to others, sort of a checks and balance of being a better moderator. I never once asked anyone to back me on the issue and anyone who posted similiar opinions did so on their own and not by my encouragement. There wouldn't be a thread if there wasn't something wrong...think about it! Perhaps this can bring about some good change if not...well you got rid of a person you don't think to highly of anyhow from some of your opinions that were shared and missed the point of the thread. Either way...good luck and keep buying spydies because I do not think any of us would like it if they were not around to even have this forum. Laterz!

[Carlos]

I think if you check the thread currently you will notice V34's post...he was the guy I swapped mice with and the originator of the post. Carlos did not even PM him on the matter at all. So whatsup with that...which was exactly my point on the whole matter

Actually most of the people who responded to that thread were cc'ed the exact same PM that you got. Including V34.

[Carlos]

The thread was up for days...not hours so basically Carlos is full of crap on that matter.

I closed it as soon as I saw it. In my perception then, I thought it was a new thread. Evidently I was mistaken. You are confusing that with malice. This is a high volume forum and I do miss things.

As far as "dings" on Bladeforums the rules there are very clear and strictly enforced. The one time I gave you a warning there that I recall, was such a case of clear violation of those rules.

As moderator I am not just an informational agent (however limited) I am also the janitor (cleaning out the garbage and moving things where they ought to be), and the policeman. When you get pulled over for speeding, a policman isn't going to give you a lollypop, he's going to give you a ticket. There are times that being authoritarian is necessary, even if it is not pleasant for the rule-breaker. It isn't supposed to be.

As far as my private dealings in terms of knife selling, that has nothing to do with my position as moderator here or anywhere else.

[J Smith]

I am happy to hear that there was a reason for those forumites not to have been banned.

[sod]

Carlos, have you heard the expression "a picture is worth a thousand words".
This is like watching a train wreck, in slow motion!

[v34]

Still never had ANY emails sent to me about my breaking of rules.

[Carlos]

Still never had ANY emails sent to me about my breaking of rules.


V34, you were not emailed. I sent you a Private Message on this website. I just forwarded it to you again. There is a grey box on the upper right hand corner of this page which which is your PM mail box. Just click on the link.

[Hannibal Lecter]

A point, if I may.

Experience has taught me that folks will type things on newsgroups and forums they would likely never say to someone's face; it is almost as though the anonymity provided by such forums for discussion lend themselves to such abuse.

A rule of thumb that might be best applied here is to never post anything to the newsgroup that you would not be willing to say to someone's face, with the understanding of the possibility of the resulting consequences. It is how I try to conduct myself here and on the one other newsgroup I participate in regularly.

We all have a vested interest in seeing this forum thrive and prosper for the exchange of ideas and information. Gentlemen (and ladies) can agree to disagree politely. The next time you are preparing to vent on someone over an issue, regardless of which side of the issue you are on, please take a brief pause before pressing the "submit reply" button and decide whether or not you would say what you have written to someone's face.

The Spyderco Forum is a wonderful place for us to gather, and we owe Spyderco a debt of gratitude for providing it; let's all agree to act as though this is the case.

[JDEE]

Well said Hannibal Lechter. Too many people take these forums all too seriously - they are supposed to be fun as well as being informative. I have ceased participating in other forums due to the content and was happy when I found this one. My only hope is that this forum is not going the same way. In my opinion it is Spydercos forum and we are invited to participate. Rules are rules and if you don't like the way it is run you can opt out as I have done in other areas.

[Carlos]

Thanks for the breath of fresh air Hannibal and JDEE. On that note I'm going to close this thread. Kudzu34 has had ample opportunity to express his opinion and show his colours.

Anyone with serious concerns can address me privately via PM or email. Or as I've said before, go directly to Sal or Joyce.