Life or death encounter

[Mark1955]

My question to all experienced knife people.

If you were in a life or death struggle(robber) and or being attacked by a large dog which Spydie knife would you want in your hands? I personally would want one that would not slip or be knocked out of my hand easily and one that would be very strong.

I have not seen the gunting or the military in person.

I have all the everyday knives I need now I am looking for a carry self defense knife.

All advise is appreciated.

[Jeremy]

Hands down I would carry the Gunting.

Jeremy

[Jeremy]

Hands down I would carry the Gunting.

Jeremy

[Jeremy]

Hands down I would carry the Gunting.

Jeremy

Sorry for the multiable posts

Edited by - Jeremy on 5/2/2001 4:05:25 PM

[sal]

Hey Mark. Are you going to train? or do you want a "point & shoot"?

Hi Jeremy. Welcome to the Spyderco forum.

sal

[seth]

Civilian if I'm untrained; Gunting or Chinook once my skills match the design intent of the blade.

Perhaps a better question would be 'how much training can you budget in both time and money?'

Seth

[Turbo923]

I agree with Seth....the Civilian would be good if you want to disable, not kill someone, and if you don't have training. But if you can working the Gunting, and want way more options in terms of non-letal moves...the Gunting would be better. Heck, I'd get both....hehe

[Turbo923]

I agree with Seth....the Civilian would be good if you want to disable, not kill someone, and if you don't have training. But if you can work the Gunting, and want way more options in terms of non-letal moves...the Gunting would be better. Heck, I'd get both....hehe

[Mark1955]

Sal
I be honest and tell you that I probably am not going to get any training.I realize that it would be a good idea though.
I'm not sure what you mean by "point & shoot"

Mark

[sam the man..]

A military may come in handy. Instinctively -- you'll know how to use it when you pull it! <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Sam

have spydies will travel

[The Stare]

Life and death struggles are not, in my mind, the time to think about trying to just wound someone. The only way to be certain that an opponent poses no more danger to you is his/her death. I don't know blade length on the Gunting, but large dogs on the attack aren't bothered much by pain. Their natural perception is life/death also, IMHO. So, don't think the Gunting would be my first canine defense tool.

Knives cut/slash and they stab, generally speaking. I believe that in either of the 2 proposed scenarios, a knife that is capable of doing both well, while easy to maintain a good grip on it, would make the best choice.

Blood, vomit, etc., are very slippery. Make knife handles very slick too. Don't think I would want Micarta for life/death situation, unless effectively roughened up. Would want a handle designed to facilitate good grip, for slashing, thrusting, and withdrawal. That unfortunately rules out several Spydies I like a lot.

From what I've known/seen/heard of Spydies, I'd have to go with the large Wegner, or the original Lum tanto. Very ergonomic handle. An effective stabbing point. It is designed for slashing/cutting. Not sure of it's handle material, but even if Micarta, believe the shape would help maintain grip.

Second choice would probably be the Ayoob. That deep drop of the handle means one can hang onto it very well also.

My $.02 worth.


Stare

Stare is on the right track about not worrying about causing 'less' damage to a violent offender than they are to you. They forfeit their own safety and rights the moment they commit to violating yours.

Since you won't be able to train, 'point and shoot'(simple/natural gross motor body mechanics that have decent success without formal training,IHMO) is probably what you're going to gravitate to. Some models designed for that are the Civilian and Matriarch.

It is nice to have the options for non-lethal engagement(like the Gunting offers), but that in my mind is just waiting for the offender to escalate to lethal first. In my training, something that offers decent cutting edge/reach and thrusting is ideal(like the Military, Endura or Starmate). I do own a Gunting and like the options it offers, but the blunt impact features are something I'd use only if I didn't have the time to open the blade first.

Ken

[Jazzman]

The Stare,
I would agree w/ the Wegner, but why the origional Lum. If I HAD to pick a defense knife, I would get the new Lum w/ the G10 handles. The Ti is kinda slippery to me.
Matt

[Mark1955]

Believe me folks the last thing I would want is a hand to hand struggle and all I had was a knife. I probably would turn and run as fast as I could ...but you can't out run a dog.
To me I know I would'nt be cutting or slashing I'd be stabbing as fast as I could.And I would not use a gunting to hand out bruises.
To me a knife is like a gun it's a last resort weapon and you don't pull it out unless you are going to use it.
I guess i will check out this wegner but I thought the gunting looked like the blade would be long enough and it appeared you could get a good grip on it.

Edited by - Mark1955 on 5/3/2001 1:35:47 PM

[The Stare]

Jazzman -- you're right. I have a poor memory, and am relatively new to Spyderco famdom. I mostly use the KnifeCenter for info, in part because it puts the models where they can be seen together. I'd last looked at the black G-10 Lum, and forgot most had the slick handles.

Certainly, the Turzuola, the JD Smith and the Shabaria and Chinook would all be effective also. In my feeble mind, was seeing the basic shape of the Lum in my mind, and the similarity in profile to the Wegner.

Part of my viewpoint is that of another forumite at BladeForums, who believes, and makes good arguments, that the Wegner is simply the best all around production folder. I've pretty well decided it will be my next knife. It also reminds me a lot of the Kershaw Random Task, a knife I keep thinking about, but never getting around to buy.

I think most important in a life/death situation is to have a knife that you trust, that feels good in your hand and will stay there, and enough blade to get some serious stabbing done. I love the looks of the Viele, but fear the potential for cutting myself, or just plain losing the knife because of the lack of things to hold onto/pull on.



Stare

[anyman]

Hands down the Gunting (only one post, please). Al

[Mancer]

Yeah babay, those are the ones, definately the Civie or Matriarch for untrained, this blade is Godly as is the Chin, altho since Ive got a good knowledge of various pressure points and locks from my akido training Id most likeley beat that dog into next century with the Gunting.

Waiting for mine(with tapes n drone) 2 arrive once stock is available down here.

Seeya

MaNcEr

P.S. if you wanna train Id personally take the Gunting over the Chin for only self defense, the Chin is a beutiful knife and one if not the best in the Spydie range Ive seen as a all around util knife, still Gunting was made with one thing in mind, self defense.

It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

[Ric24581]

The largest blade that I could open reliably while under attack.

The Guro.

Until Poppa Spydie gets it done, the Gunting will do. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>




Be polite and professional, but have a plan to kill anyone you meet

[Colinz]

The Gunting, the lock on it and the thrusting ability would make me choose it instead of the civilian.

Guro?

Well if we where in the future I would choose the military gunting (oh I am not pestering Bram here, alright! just making an opinion <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

/Colinz<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

[phadthai]

anyone of my spydercos will do the job equally well.
phadthai

[Mancer]

Hmmmmmmmm, I been thinking long and hard since my last post, to be honest it depends, if its a big ugly snarling monster of a dog, Id go for the Matriarch since its light, easy to get out and good good slashing in that kind of situation, but that I think would be for a distance attack, as in the dogs still at arms reach, if its ontop, Id say you wanna punch n stab, then the one would be the Gunting for sure with that spear shaped blade.

Oh well, hehe

Hard one for sure

seeya

MaNcEr

It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

[Mark1955]

MaNcEr--

I'm Talking about a dog like a pit bull they don't stay at arms length.They come right at you without hesitation and grab part of you and don't let go.They are tough and don't feel pain. In my humble opinion you would have to have a knife with stabbing abilities and one that would be very difficult to dislodge from your grip.Plus lets say you stab this animal between the ribs you would want a knife that has a stong blade because if the dog twist it's body it could snap the blade off.
Mark

Edited by - Mark1955 on 5/10/2001 8:16:30 AM

[Tightwad]

Any kind of self defense is a combination of several things, training,, equipment , determination, and
a good bit of luck to succeed. Or at least come out alive,wounded maybe but alive. This can get really
gritty at times when hand to hand combat is necessary. Really gritty. For those who have never
experienced hand to hand I hope they never do. You never forget it. As to which spyderco knife?
Any with a sharp blade of about 4&quot; will do. Remember the determination factor. When hand to
hand starts your choices of what to use narrow very fast. Take care.

[bladebroker]

Training, equipment &amp; determination. I couldn't agree more and remember that goes for the attacker too. If your talking about a working dog they train every day with equipment they were born with and their single minded determination is remarkable.

If a dog like this decides he wants a piece of you, you may survive to tell about it but its unlikely you will do so without injury.

Terry Prichard
http://stores.andale.com/bladebroker

[Allen E. Treat]

Dear Mark1955;
For the type of situation you
describe I'd have to say the Gunting ( you
may also want the &quot;trainer&quot; version, as well). I would recommend carrying &quot;pepper&quot;
spray as this is a &quot;non lethal&quot; alternative and does work. It'll save you hefty court fee(s) usually related to
&quot;Justifiable lethal force&quot;.

Good luck !

Sincerely,

A.E.T.

[clipiteer]

Definitely the Calypso fully serrated. If you're looking for something still in production, maybe an Eduard Bradichansky Shabaria or a JD Smith. All have have Mircata handles though, which may prove a bit slippery as The Stare mentioned. Also, I don't think I would mind using lethal force on a dog, and you could outrun an attacker.

Edited by - clipiteer on 5/23/2001 2:02:22 PM

[clipiteer]

Edited by - clipiteer on 5/23/2001 2:01:39 PM

[tbarahon]

Speed and a OC can. It is not a good idea to confront a dog. If it is trained, it will go or for the crotch of for the neck, in any case, ignoring or pushing away arms or legs. I know what I am talking about, my grandpa had a kernel and used to train Dobermans. If the dog is as close as blade length you will get bitted

[clipiteer]

&quot;Speak softly and carry a big stick&quot;

[sal]

Hi Ric, welcome to the Spyderco forum.

Mark. by &quot;Point &amp; shoot&quot;, I mean no training, just a natural reaction.

first of all, cutting some one with a knife means leegal problems as the very minimum. Attempted murder would be the charge. Spray is a good idea.

second, dogs are not all the same. A trained dog is going to present more of a problem than an untrained dog. A major slash or 2 or 10 (with no breaks between cuts) will make even the toughest dog feel pain. A stick or spray is still a better choice as it is not likely to kill the dog.

sal

[Muel]

I wouldn't kill a dog, but a robber? Yes i would carry the biggest legal spyderco available.

[The Stare]

Mark1955 -- if you're still reading this thread, meant to say something earlier, which I forgot: I'd suggest you read &quot;Master of the Blade&quot; by Richard Ryan. I've only read one other book on knife fighting, and in my opinion, Ryan is far better than the other.

IMHO, if a person is threatening to assault me, and displays a weapon, or is in the act of assaulting you with a weapon, the only attitude likely to result in your survival is that you must kill that person, or at a minimum make it impossible for him/her to make any further threatening gestures with that weapon. I believe a single-minded intent to destroy the person is the most logical, and ultimately, the safest stance for you to take.

Got my Wegner yesterday. Too soon to give it an effective review. I can say that I like it a lot, and that it has wonderful slashing ability. The blade is so thick that I'm not convinced that stabbing will prove to be its forte. In my simple mind, stabbing should occupy the large majority of efforts one makes to survive if under attack. So, guess I'll have to devise some thrusting/stabbing tests for the Wegner and a couple other of my knives. The Wegner is no doubt very strong, very sharp, and has a good point. So, it may do just fine. Am awfully tempted to go looking for a the large Calypso. Got the Jr today, and it is a thing of awe. If the big one can cut like it, and stab effectively, it has to be a real winner.

Stare

[Knife Dude]

Don't think I'm crazy, but I would carry a smaller knife like the Endura or the Delica because it would be easier to conceal.

[GronK]

I'd want to be carrying my new Blackhawk. It has plenty of belly to the blade for skinning the critter after I empty a magazine of 9mm into it. Should make a nice coat!

Just 'cause yer paranoid don't mean someone ain't out ta getcha

[earthworm]

I'll second clipteer's &amp; KnifeDude's posts:
3-' of good seasoned hickory(the'Alabama Lie Detector')in the hand &amp; a Delica or even a Merlin in the pocket.I'll not speak of .45's in fannypacks or .38's in IWB hoilsters*BEG*.
Pepper spray is very nice as a nonlethal option &amp; seemingly quite efective.

[earthworm]

Corrections: that should read&quot;3-4'of seasoned hickory&quot;,&amp;&quot;holsters&quot;.Sorry:been a long day*G*.