At The Ready.

[Carlos]

Here are the specs from Sal:



Blade length - 3.5"

Blade steel - still to be determined, probably VG10.



Blade shape is unusual and quite difficult to describe. Basically a dagger grind with a chunk cut out of the top half, sharpened on edge side only.



Lock is an integral compression lock (first time)



Handle on the proto is Titan, although we'll probably make both steel and Titan handles (cost). Indexing holes in both the handle and clip (new style) for different size hands.



"Cobra hood" over hole for easy deployment (new concept).



14mm opening hole (Military size).





And here is an url for an image (poor) that I've uploaded:



http://www.zing.com/picture/p97892690234e6c9632b5cedf3c4287b9/fe87a214.jpg.orig.jpg



Now for the questions:



#1. What do you think of the concept? The only thing you can't see ni the picture is the indexing holes in the clip. These align with the holes drilled in the scale.



#2. The problem with the idea of using steel for the low cost version is a very high projected weight of 6oz to 7oz. So that leaves other options for a scaled knife with nested compression lock. Would you prefer aluminum or G10 with nested lock, or the heavier integral steel idea, and why?

[vampyrewolf]

It sounds good.

I like the shape, compression locks are supposed to be strong.

Using stainless steel for the low-cost would be good. It would give the knife some heft(it may/may not be heavy in g-10).

Price?

[Carlos]

On #1. I have been a fan of this design for awhile and have been looking forward to its eventual release. One thing I would like to ask Sal is about the design of the blade. One thing that made me think it was an MBC folder was the double-hollow ground modified dagger blade. What led to the development of this rather than your usual high-performance flat grind?

On #2. I am one of the people who will be splurging on the titanium version so my comments on the lower cost version may be less helpful, but I am a big fan of aluminum and I would buy an aluminum model with nested lock. I think that it would be ture to the conecept of a light and quick knife.

I have begun o have doubts about this in G10, despite G10's popularity. for one, I don't think you could make indexing holes in G10 with the risk of splinters, at most it would have to be indentations like on the Gunting. I think the concept calls for handles that are a little on the slick side for quick manipulations and reversal of grip. Steel would probably be the smartest choice since it is the least expensive, would offer an integral lock, and there are as many fans of &quot;heft&quot; as there are of F1 weightlessness. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

In sum, (with my practicality hat on), I think an aluminum model would make most sense as an alternative if you were not going to make the titanium version for whatever reason, or had to discontinue and replace a titanium version with a less expensive variation. For mass sales I think steel will be best since it will appeal to the large crowd who like heft, and super-strong folders -- I wouldn't modify the design with more skeletonizing to reduce weight, keep the design as is.

On consideration I have begun to consider G10 as too different from the fundamental concept, and it would make it too much many other knives in the collection. Keep ATR unique.

For VampyreWolf: Sal estimated that the cost of steel would be 60% of the Ti model. So if I guesstimate the Ti's MSRP at $225, the steel's MSRP would be $135. So perhaps a street price of $100 for a steel ATR? I think that might do well.

[Mr Blonde]

I really like the looks of the ATR. I, and surely many knifeknuts with me, will definitely go for a titanium model. G10 versus aluminum, I am a fan of the G10 on my Military, but for this model I would prefer aluminum. It may provide a little more heft and perhaps better allow for the indexing holes. At what stage of development is the ATR, i.e. any tentative release dates?

Cheers,

Wouter

[Carlos]

At this point there is no projected date for the release of ATR. It is in the last stages of development.

[mundele]

I think Aluminum would be nice. Perhaps Spyderco could look into the bead-blasted anodized aluminum similar to that found on the Benchmade 940. It gives a very nice look IMO.
Another question... is the Salsa and the ATR the same knife? I thought they were different models, but now I dont know...

--Matt

Edited by - Mundele on 5/14/2001 6:58:02 PM

[Carlos]

Hi Matt,

&quot;Salsa&quot; and ATR are two different knives of similar contruction. When I first saw the &quot;Salsa&quot; I thought it was an ATR Jr.

&quot;Salsa&quot; has a 2.5&quot; blade, ATR has a 3.5&quot; blade. Both have cobra hoods.

The &quot;Salsas&quot; will be flat ground (ti) and sabre ground (al). The ATR is double hollow-ground.

The high-end versions of both knives will be titanium integral compression locks. The lower cost Salsa will have an aluminum handle with nested lock.

The lower cost version of the ATR hasn't been decided yet, though it seems to be a question of either an integral lock in steel, or aluminum with a nested lock.

On #1, I think the concept is fresh with new ideas(integral compression, hood, so there's multiple indexing holes on the clip?). and I like the approach of releasing the high end version first kind of like they did with the Lum tanto.

On #2, despite alot of people here on the forum liking 'heft', I personally like light and fast. However, I'd much prefer a strong integral compression with the ss handles over the g-10 with nested liner(the Temperance will already offer that). I think having texture that offers good grip retention is more important than having indexing holes for grip reversals(despite being a real cool feature). one plus would be the holes on either side could offer some bite for good grip.

Is there a way to keep the ss non-locking scale thinner to reduce weight? or perhaps have the integral locking scale ss, and the opposite scale aluminum(or some other lightweight mat.)? I don't know the problems with mixing different materials like this, but I think it is vital to this design to preserve the integral nature of the lock somehow.

If the weight of a stainless steel integral version could be kept the same(or less) that of the ss Endura, I think it's in good shape for the general market. IMO

Ken

Edited by - KenN on 5/15/2001 8:24:20 AM

[Carlos]

At this point the weight for a steel ATR is only a guesstimate -- they would actually have to make one to know for sure.

The steel Police and Endura are both listed as weighing 5.5oz. It has been my thought that if they could keep a steel ATR to 6oz (the same as the popular SERE 2000) - perhaps by adding another pair of indexing holes - then it would still pass muster for the &quot;general market.&quot; I just checked he weight of the Chinook and it weighs in offically at 7.2oz -- so perhaps a steel ATR that is between 6 and 7oz is not an issue (at least not for the lovers of &quot;heft&quot;<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.

Ken, your idea of a mixed knife with aluminum on the non-lock side is very interesting, but I wonder how the knife would feel in use with the imbalance of weight, and also I wonder if the market would accept it. Any thoughts?

BTW, unlike the Lum Tanto they intend to produce the low-cost and high-end versions of the ATR concurrently.

Edited by - Carlos on 5/15/2001 4:21:59 PM

[Carlos]

Oh, I thought that I should note that the weight of the titanium model is 4.75 oz -- so even it is not that light. I assume that an aluminum model with nested lock would also weigh in at around 5oz (due to the dual steel liners). I realized this miight provide some context for discussion of a steel ATR.

If the weight of a 3.5&quot;blade ATR begins to gets too close to matching a Chinook, I think we can lose the 'integral' from the lock and start saving weight as priority one.

I just didn't think that the scales for an integral ss ATR would have to be thicker than the ss Police or Endura, and thus keeping weight somewhere in that range(which I can deal with). I may be wrong on this but, isn't there less steel parts making up the handle/lock of an integral ss ATR than on the ss Police and Enduras with their spring and the housing for the spring, rocker bar and full/solid back spacer? also those models don't have the indexing cutouts as well.

I've never had a folder with mixed materials like alum. with ss, so I don't know how much balance would be compromised, but I can't imagine that the feel would be too odd, the lrg. Dyad is somewhat off-centerline aligned and aside from the very slight elevation difference in the hand, it moves naturally. And the ATR(in mixed mat.) would be structurally symmetrical, I'm guessing. Imbalance in weight may be minute enough to be unnoticable?

As far as the market acceptance of a mixed handle, I don't know, because I don't think it has been done before. But we do know that aluminum and ss are popularly accepted on their own, just not in a hybrid form.

I'm just throwing out some defenses for 'integral', not very scientific I know, but ever since I first heard of the ATR, I've associated it with being a clean simple integral mech. and just want to see it retained in all it's incarnations.

Ken

[Carlos]

Hi Alan,

I'm with you on this. I was expecting a steel ATR to weigh less than the steel Police. I was extremely suprised when Sal estimated 6 to 7oz. I think a steel ATR would be quite popular with integral lock fanatics if the weight can be kept to about 6oz.

We won't know more on the actual situation until Sal gets back from his latest trip.

[sal]

Hi guys. I'm back. still doing the &quot;am I awake now?&quot; bit with the jet lag.

Some very interesting concepts.

I would have liked to hear more opinion on Ken's idea of non symetrical materials.

The Lil' Temperance offers two nested liners, but it has a thicker blade (4mm, like the Military). But I don't think I'd call it a lite weight at 126 gm 4.44 oz.

The ATR has a thinner blade (3mm) but it's longer. I question whether or not a nested compression lock in G10 would be any lesss expensive than Titan.

I think SS might be the answer, with lotsa holes or a hybrid with SS and ?

sal

[Carlos]

On the issue of non-symmetry:

I've been pondering it, and since I (and others) feel no imbalance (side to side) in knives with single steel liners, then there will probably no problem with the feel of steel on one side and aluminum on the other.

The real problem as I see it would be the appearance -- as even if you use hybrid materials I think it needs to look homogenous for the general market to accept it. Could you give the aluminum a brushed finish and give it a very similar appearance to the steel side? Or would you rather use a coating for both?

A steel/Al hybird is IMO a much more elegant solution than drilling a mass of holes into an all steel model. At the very least it might be worth making a prototype and taking it to one of the upcoming knife shows for public reaction.

Another possibility on the hybrid theme would be titanium on the lock side, with aluminum on the other. This would be even lighter than an all titanium model, and would also cost less, though still much more than an all steel or steel/Al hybrid.

Any thoughts?

[Carlos]

One more idea:

If all ATRs were made hybrid, then there would me a manufacturing economy in that you would only need to machine/stamp three different scales for the two different models. A steel left (lock) scale, a titanium left (lock) scale, and an aluminum right (non-lock) scale that would be used by both models -- only the finishing would/might be different.

I didn't take into consideration the differences in appearance earlier, but now that you mention it, I can think of only one Spyderco that has non-similar finishes for either side. The Viele(though in micarta) has a contoured polished finish on one side and a matte flat look on the other side, but is still quite stunning to look at.

The idea of a ti-aluminum hybrid is interesting. Good point on the machining of only 3 scales instead of 4 for 2 models.

I like the 'R' with it's exotic skeletal look, but I agree that drilling too many more holes(in the ATR specifically) might not be very appealing. There is also the possiblity that having too many holes will interfere with accurate indexing for those who do grip switches.

Although the gen. market may like knowing their folder is 'all steel', I think there is a greater appreciation/awareness now for F1 high performance as opposed to tank-tough-only mindset.IMO

A hybrid prototype(for show input) with symmetrical finishes does seem like a vaild next step.

Ken

[Carlos]

Sal,

Any idea what the weight savings would be for a steel/al hybrid, and a ti/al hyrbid? This might help us close in on the best solution. Also, what affect would these changes hypothetically have on the projected pricing?

[Paul D.]

How feasible would it be to make the handles out of Al and use a steel insert/module for the lock section? I seem to remember Sal talking about trying to engineer a lock unit for the compression locks. Maybe Spyderco isn't at that point with the compression lock. If you did use a lock module you could make the handle out of almost anything--FRN, G-10, Carbon Fiber, Al, Ti. Using the same type of nesting concept as on a lot of the recent liner locks I think it would be plenty strong enough, especially since most of the force would be on the end of the lock leaf, and not at the leaf/handle junction.

Paul

[Carlos]

Hi Paul,

The Lil' Temperance (or &quot;Sal's Jambiya Jr.&quot; as I call it) coming out next month will have an integral compression lock in G10 scales, and I think Ken correctly pointed out that part of the unique identity of the ATR within Spyderco's collection is the integral lock design. If you consider how many people are fanatical about the CR Sebenza and its integral linerlock, the ATR will offer the same thing but in a fundamentally stronger form.

We did mention the possibility of aluminum scales with nested compression lock, but so far the consensus has been for integrals. Do you think that nested aluminum would be preferrable to a integral steel/aluminum hybrid, and if so, why?

My own thought is still that an all steel ATR, even if on the heavy side, would probably find the greatest acceptance from the general non-knifenut ELU. A ti/al hybrid might be exotic enough to appeal to most F1-grade clipit buyers -- I know that I would buy it or an all titanium one. In this case the hybridization could be a marketable &quot;feature.&quot;

Again, regarding the mass-market version of the ATR: perhaps the best thing to do would be to take an all steel proto and a steel/al hybrid proto to some knife shows for feedback. The problem we have as techno-junkies is judging what the non-junkies will find appealing.

Edited by - Carlos on 5/31/2001 7:08:17 AM

[Paul D.]

Yes, Carlos I am aware of the integral compression lock(s) that are in the works. The conversation had turned to ways of making the compression lock knives (in particular the ATR) lighter. I feel that people will not respond favorably to a knife with half the handle Al (or Ti) and the other half steel. While it might save weight, it would still be heavier than an all Ti or all Al handle. You would get all the drawbacks of both materials (one side is heavy, the other is soft). I'm sure that a handle like that would work, but I don't think most ELU, even knife knuts, would be enthralled with it. With a lock module, the handle could be kept light, but the strength of the lock remain very high. Since the compression lock works by squeezing a tab of metal between the blade, and stop pin the strength of an integral lock is a little overkill. The forces on a Sebenza integral lock (or any linerlock) are in a different direction than on the compression lock. Therefore a nested compression lock leaf/bar with two screws should be plenty strong. It works in the Military where stresses are transferred along the length of the linerlock leaf.

Paul

Paul, I think that despite the compression locks unique application of its mechanism, the general mechanism is still the same as liner lock, and will benefit from being 'integral' as the liner lock does(though not in the same application).

Just as the integral lock offers up more steel(surface area) to block the blade tang, the compression integral will wedge more steel for the tang and stop pin to compress(overkill is in the eye of the beholder, IMHO), making it safer and stronger. It may also benefit from becoming a tighter lockup with a tighter grip similar to current integrals.

Just as many of us on these forums, I own both all ti-handle folders and aluminum handled ones as well, and recently after joining this post, compared a couple of them together and honestly don't think most gen. market buyers will even notice the weight imbalance or hard/soft factors unless pointed out. The two materials may take on finishes differently and may 'possibly' look different, but don't know if that is truly a bad thing.

I haven't felt any ATR protos at all, so I'm only speaking from exisiting models for comparison.

Ken

[Carlos]

Hi Paul and Ken,

Part of the problem that we are overlooking here is that the second model has to be much less expensive than the first, which follows original concept. As things are planned now, the high-end version will be the titanium integral compression lock -- which acording to Sal will have an MSRP over $200. This means very limited production, really just collectors.

Part of the problem with an ATR with a compression lock nested in aluminum or G10, is that it would still be nearly as expensive as the titanium model. Consider that the Lum Chinese folder with nested linerlock in aluminum scales has an MSRP of $180, and the ATR is a larger knife with a more complex design.

Pricewise, an all steel ATR makes the most sense since it will cost 60% of what the titanium model will -- so its price point will be under the critical $150 mark. The problem is the weight, estimated at 6oz to 7oz. Putting aluminum on the non-lock scale could probably knock that down an ounce or more and still keep the price under $150. It is a radical notion, and may be too much to ask of the general ELU however. Personally I think the &quot;nuclear tough&quot; folder fanatics would like the heft of an all steel model.

But the important point to remember is that the whole purpose of the second model is to be a higher-volume, less expensive version for the average buyer. Paul, perhaps your idea of a nested lock in FRN should be looked at more closely. It seems to be working for the Vesuvius after all. Of course the problem with FRN is the higher intial tooling cost for Spyderco.

Edited by - Carlos on 5/31/2001 3:25:18 PM

[sal]

I'm only in town for a couple of days before departing for the Blade Show. I'll try to grab some scales for some weight comparisons.

sal

[ftkinney]

i would go for the titanium. without a hessitation.

FTK

[Carlos]

Hi Sal,

I look forward to getting some hard data! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

[sal]

Hi Carlos. One titan scale for the ATR weighs 52 gms. One identical steel scale weighs 77 gms.

The blade weight stays the same. Obviously we'll have to drill alot or? if we use steel scales.

sal

[Carlos]

Thanks Sal,

So an all-steel model would weigh 1.76oz more than an all titanium model, totaling 6.5oz -- an ounce less than Chinook, but an ounce more than an all-steel Police.

IMO the wisest thing to do would be to take a 6.5oz steel model to some shows and have people handle it. I'm a bit resistant to further skeletonizing since it may negatively affect appearance (and thus sales), and make the knife harder to keep clean.

On the other hand, how much weight would you forsee saving by drilling small holes ( without compromising the strength and appearance of the handle)? 0.5oz? 1oz? It might be worth it for a 1oz weight savings, and you could probably even make an artistic/elegant pattern of holes. But I would still try getting some feedback from ELU on a full-weight proto before getting radical with a drill.