Let's talk about locks

[sal]

I would like to have some discussion on locks; types, advantages, disadvantages, reliability, ultimate strength, user friendly, etc.



I would like to (here) develop a "Tech Report" of a sort to try to put establish values on these features.



More on a learning mission, than a race.



I would like to keep it here on this forum (don't want to offend anyone), so please do not make any announcements on other forums about this discussion. It could go nowhere (now here as opposed to no where? the importance of open space?), but it might get honest and often honesty creates friction.



Types: (please add any I miss)



1. Lockbacks

A. rear (eg: Buck 110)

B. mid (eg: Native)

C. front (eg: early Al Mars, Spyderco Rescue)

2. Linerlock

3. Rolling Lock

4. Axis Lock

5. Ultra Lock

6. Arc Lock

7. Frame Lock (Chris Reeve style integral linerlock)

8. Compression Lock

9. Balisong Lock



"Observations" could be thrown in a hat, with sorting done periodically. A general discussion on locks.



What started this line of thought was;



1. We have 3 new locks in R&D and I am on a "truth" mission.



2. We have been breaking knives for a while now. As a result, we've set up a standard and we are trying to build to those standards.



3. We recently broke some of our competitors knives that are promoted as being "tough", "hard" reliable "do anything" pieces. most tested "medium duty" lock strength by our in-house standards (50 - 99 inch/lbs per inch of blade length).



(As a comparison, our Endura, Delica & Calypso FRN models are "Heavy duty" (100+ inche/lbs per inch of blade length.)



So I'm after the real truth as well as opinions, perceptions and experiences.



BTW, heard a great line on one of the forums. Don't remember who said it (sorry).



"They call them fixed blades cuz they aint broke".



sal



Edited by - sal on 6/17/2001 4:06:53 PM

[vampyrewolf]

1. Lockbacks
A. rear (eg: Buck 110)
B. mid (eg: Native)
C. front (eg: early Al Mars, Spyderco Rescue)
2. Linerlock
3. Rolling Lock
4. Axis Lock
5. Ultra Lock
6. Arc Lock
7. Frame Lock
8. Compression Lock
9. Balisong Lock


1a> been around for a long time, old-timers are used to them. I don't like them as much, but they are placed well out of the way. 6/10
1b> easy to close one-handed. Supposed to have the best strenght of type 1. 9/10
1c> same as type 1b isn't it? 9/10
2> best lock for small knives. allows for wear. gets an 9/10.
3> haven't used, haven't seen
4> very easy to open, fun to play with. gets a 6/10.
5> haven't used, haven't seen
6> haven't used, haven't seen
7> this is what's used on the KISS isn't it? if so, usefull in theory, but any pressure and it's closing on your hands. 3/10
8> upside down linerlock, better power? new, unable to rate
9> haven't had time to play with these yet.

10> paratrooper clasp(metal piece holding handles together).
-strong metal, otherwise it bends.
-once loosened up, opens about as fast as my Delica.

We all start with 10 fingers. Those with Spydies have 9 to spare, Still need a thumb. Good thing I still have 8 to spare...

[Carlos]

My lock design priorities.

1. Mechanical simplicity
2. Ease of use, one-handed, opening/closing
3. Reliability
4. Strength
5. Long-Term Wear
6. Ambidexterity


I think the obsession with strength is over-rated -- reliability is more important IMO. The real need for strength comes from those people who mis-use their folders as prybars, hammers, etc., with a specialized need in MBC.

1. Lockbacks: Not too complicated and easy to make reliable, they suffer from two problems. One, the stronger you make the lock, the harder the knife is to open. Two, it is difficult to close one-handed, and some blade shapes (Civilian) make it rather perilous to close one-handed. The Boye-type cut-out is a must have refinement. A mid or front position for the lock-back is essential for easier one-hand closing.

2. Linerlock: This is still my favourite. It is the simplest, a one-piece lock requiring only one liner. It is the easiest to open and close one-handed, whatever the lock strength. Because the simple design hides little understood sophistication, reliability is a problem outside of high-end production folders and custom knives. Even then long-term wear will always be an issue, so even if it tests high for strength and reliability at first, it can not be predicted to stay that way. An excellent design for everday-carry, sub-optimal for MBC/critical missions. It is also more easily adapted to various handle shapes than most others.

3 - 6. I will put the complex mechanical locks in one group. The fundamental theroretical flaw of all such locks is that this more that can go wrong, more parts that require maintainance and repair, and are more vulnerable to fouling from contaminants and are more difficult to clean. All of these locks are so new that their long term reliability is simply unknown. The Rolling lock suffers from its bulk and weight -- there is not yet a thin or elegant folder with a Rolling lock. Aside from their complexity, the only flaw I find with the Axis, Arc, and Ultra locks is their positioning on the handle, which strikes me as vulnerable to acccidental opening during use. Most ranting in favour of these locks, really points to better day-to-day reliability than medium and low quality linerlocks, not better lock strength. Most people don't see the distinction between reliability and strength.

7. Frame locks: By this I assume you mean something like AG Russel's One-hand knife, and not the integral forms of linerlocks and compresson locks. My one experience with a frame lock is that there was a lot of resistance while opening, and it was tricky to close one-handed. Simplicity of design was good, but it needed tuning. Can't comment on long term strength or reliability.

8. Compression lock: I'm still waiting for the Lil' Temperance to try this for myself. Fundamentally, in terms of simplicity, strength, and long term reliability, it is the best concept I've seen. It appears to suffer from some difficulty in one-hand closing, yet is better than a lockback in this.

9. Balisong: The prince of folding knives in utility form. Almost nothing to go wrong, and the tighter you hold it the stronger it is locked. Unfortunately, the martial side of the balisong heritage (and Hollywood misuse) appears to have gotten it legislated into a shadow existence.

[sal]

Sorry for the confusion. By frame locks, I was referring to the Chris Reeve style. Pat Crawfords "frame locks" are IMO basically lock backs, without the lever. But we can add them to the list, should anyone wish?

I'll correct the 1st post. Carlos, Thanx for bringing it up.

sal

[Joe Talmadge]

Of the properties I feel are important, <b>strength </b> is the one that seems to play to the knife-buying masses the most. But once a certain level of strength is reached, other properties become very important, very quickly.

<b>Reliability </b> has, of course, been an interest of mine for a while. More is always better, and the lock should be rock solid when white knuckled, torqued, spine whacked, etc. It should not be easy to accidently release it, and should not auto-release on its own. In addition, the lock design should be such that it can be consistently mass-produced in a reliable manner. A lock format with many subtleties and nuances -- like the liner lock -- is not a good choice for that reason, IMO. Keep in mind, also, that this is a folder, and under hard use the frame might twist some, that should not effect the lockup!

<b>Action </b> is important. The lock should not just allow a smooth action, but the action should hold the blade firmly in the closed position. If it doesn't, whatever solution you use to hold the blade closed must be reliable! The ball detente mechanism used by many liner locks makers is often executed very poorly.

<b>No play </b> is another important feature. At least one of the newfangled lock formats seems to loosen up and allow some blade play after a little hard use. As the knife is used, parts start to wear, the frame and other parts settle into their break-in positions, the lock if anything should tighten up.

<b>Self-adjusting for wear </b> is the one feature that I feel the liner lock has that its popular predecessor the lockback lacks. Of course, liner locks often have the opposite problem -- they can wear too quickly. But absolutely, as the lock wears, the lock should self-adjust; but it shouldn't wear too quickly.

<b>Ease of unlocking </b> is important. Due to the difficulty of making liner locks reliable, many manufacturers have lowered the angle on the blade tang and lowered the liner beneath the scales. Now it's more reliable, but you have a sticky lock that needs two hands to release. If unlocking isn't simple and easy, and if solving the problems results in reliability problems, you should pick another format.

<b>Resistance to dirt </b> is obviously important. I've had a whole bunch of lockback failures due to pocket lint recently, so much so that I'll only carry lockbacks as clip carry, not in-pocket carry. Your lock format should be as resistant to dirt, lint, etc., as much as possible.

<b>Mechanical simplicity </b> is more theoretically important than actually important, in my mind. The axis lock is more complex than the liner lock and the integral lock, yet is more reliable than both. However, it is true that more complex mechanics will generally be less-reliable ... just don't get too hung up on this if you have something that really is reliable but a tiny bit more complex.

<b>Ambidextrous </b> locks are nice to have. Not a must for me, but nice to have, too. They are very important for lefties, obviously, and for the defensive crowd that likes to carry a knife on either side. I'll trade off ambidextrousness for other features, if I must.


I could go on, believe it or not (!!!), but those are the main points.

Joe

Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 6/17/2001 4:14:04 PM

[Joe Talmadge]

okay, that said...

Lockbacks: Aside from what Carlos said, lockbacks are also pretty susceptible to dirt. They also don't adjust for wear. In addition, they can be easy to unlock through palm pressure. Depending on the shape of someone's hand, they might have more problems with accidently unlocking front, mid, or back locks, so the user might want to try a few knives and see which cause him problems. I find this a good choice for lower-end knives. When executed masterfully, like Steve Mullins Pack River folders, it's an excellent choice all around.

Liner locks: My least fave type, to the point that I consider them unacceptable. The ball detent mechanism is often unreliable, the lock itself is way too often unreliable. I strongly disagree with Carlos statement that &quot;reliability is a problem outside of high-end production folders and custom knives&quot;. In fact, some of the highest end production makers and big-reputation custom makers make some very questionable liner locks. The fact is, this format is so astoundingly difficult to make reliable that even some of the very best can't do it consistently. Too many field reports of failure, too many failures in bench testing, too many failures period. There are manufacturers and makers who are better than others, but I see no more reason to take a chance, given the superior lock choices coming out.

Axis: My top choice of lock format. It is reliable, period, in the face of everything you can throw at it, including dirt. It holds the blade securely in the handle when closed. Action is smooth. As executed by Benchmade, this is the one to beat, period. I suggest forgetting hypothetical objections about complexity: Field report and bench-testing wise, it is much more reliable than the less-complex locks. Benchmade has scaled it from beefy hard-users, to inexpensive zytel handled knives, to gents folders. My only complaint might be that axis lock knives can be a little thicker than comparable liner locks and lockbacks.

Rolling lock: theoretically the same as the axis lock, in practice not executed quite as well by REKAT, and more reports of failures.

Ultra lock, Arc lock: Two axis variants. I have no experience with the ultra lock. The arc lock appears very promising, although my sample showed some blade play after use.

Frame lock: Simple, strong, reliable. It has the same susceptibility to torquing that the liner lock has, but if designed properly, the hand will support the lock, so reliability isn't an issue. Still, occasional reports of failure in counter-clockwise torque (for righties), where less hand reinforcement is on the lock, occur. This lock style also puts severe constraints on the design and aesthetics. I like this lock, but the design constraints it imposes get old real quick.

Compression lock: With the exception of ambidextrousness, this lock has potential to deliver strength and reliability and all the other important features, without imposing obnoxious design constraints. It may very well be the best of the bunch -- or the worst <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> The fact that it made it past the Stamperizer is a good sign. I'll have to handle one to be sure!

Joe

[Carlos]

Hi Sal,

Thanks for clarifying. It redo #7:

Frame lock: The advantages of the frame lock (integral linerlock) are its potential for greater lock strength and its greater simplicity. With the common linerlock, the strength of the lock rests primarily upon the pins holding the knife together. A frame locks strength is limited by shape and thickness of the lock lever where it joins the scale.

Reliability should be equivalent to a linerlock if implemented correctly. Sebenza fanatics who rant on the concept that you grip the lock closed overlook the issues that this is only true if you hold the knife in one specific way (a grip that I myself rarely use), and that if you are in contact with the lock a twisting motion could disengage the lock while cutting.

The disadvantage of this type lies in ergonomics and limitations on design -- unlike a linerlock which can be adapted to any handle shape.

[J D Wijbenga]

Below are some of my thoughts concerning locks.

1. Lockbacks
In general I think lockbacks are best for the lower end production knives (below+/- $75). A good lockback is dependable and strong but on many you can push the blade slightly upwards into the locking bar. This does not compromise functionality but is unacceptable on an expensive knife. An expensive folder should lock up rock solid with no play. Expensive folders should me more than just functional. I think that a lock back can be made this solid but that it is difficult to do it constantly in a production environment.
A. rear (eg: Buck 110)
The work but are difficult to close with one hand.
B. mid (eg: Native)
The best lockback layout in my experience. It works well and easy.
C. front (eg: early Al Mars, Spyderco Rescue)
Don't know.
2. Linerlock
Best in Gentleman knives. I do not entirely trust them. I have heard to much about them going wrong, though some are better then others. At the moment I carry a Starmate and think its liner lock is secure and save but not rock solid. If I push on the back of the blade when it is open I can bent the spring a bit. This my very well be my last linerlock. The are easy to operate though. I hope to switch to the compression lock soon.
3. Rolling Lock
Don't know.
4. Axis Lock
Solid as long as the springs do not break. On my BM710 they did break, both of them. I think the springs are the biggest weakness of this design. On the plus side it is, besides solid, save, easy to operate, and a joy to play with.
5. Ultra Lock
Don't know.
6. Arc Lock
Don't know.
7. Frame Lock (Chris Reeve style integral linerlock)
Solid and save but on my BM Pinnacle I can push the lock spring, when the knife is open, upwards. This makes it feel a bit cheep although it doesn't effect lock strength.
8. Compression Lock
Not enough experience jet.
9. Balisong Lock
Solid and fun. It like to play with balis. They are the safest folder in existence when open. The only drawbacks are the limited handle configuration possibilities and the law.

IMHO the key to a good lock is good quality control. Most locks work if you make them right. And they all require small tolerances to function safely and smoothly. Most locks that fail do so due to bad materials or bad fit and finish.

Sal, good luck with the new designs and thanks for asking.

[Joe Talmadge]

JD -- Although I've read of an Axis spring failing now and then, it's always one spring that fails, and the other one works as a failsafe just as Benchmade says. I did read one case where one spring broke, but instead of returning the knife the owner continued to use it, and the 2nd spring broke a month later. One case does not a trend make, but the lesson I took away was: in the unlikely event one spring breaks, you've got a few weeks of fail-safe on the other spring, so send the knife in as soon as you can.

Was that you who posted about one spring breaking and then the other breaking a month later? If not, then that's two cases of this happening. How soon after your first broke did your second break?

Joe

[J D Wijbenga]

This is the first time I have reported this happening. I think the second spring broke about two months after the first one went. Getting a BM fixed when you live in Europe is an expensive business so I didn't want to send it back after the first spring broke, after the second one I had little choice.

JD

[Tightwad]

In the company that has repiled so far I can only offer a consumers point of view. So here goes...
Lockbacks.....
A. the buck 110 lockback is well proven and simple.It is a favorite.
B &amp; C both mid an front lockbacks are useful on small to medium size knives.
The &quot;Boye dent&quot; is a much needed improvement on the front / mid locbacks
As to the rolling lock axis lock and all of the other &quot;Types&quot; of lockback I am unable to comment.
What I can say is if the locking back method is solid and reliable then it 's ok with me.
Linerlocks......
Not worth a darn. I have only seen / used one linerlock that merits ownership...The Schrade 125ot
Mustang. It's not even a true linerlock ....it's a slipjoint (another favorite) with a brass linerlock saftey.
To bad they don't make them anymore.
Frame locks....
From my view pont another linerlock and just as un-reliable.
Balisong locks ......
As close as is possible to fixed blade in a folding knife as you can get. I'd guess that why they have
so much trouble with John Law.
Keep in mind that any folding knife will never be as strong as fixed blade. After all if there is a joint
the knife will in time fail to lock or at least will break under duress.
So for my money I'll buy / consider any lockback on the market and will NOT consider / buy any
linerlocks. But again that's just me........

[tique]

1. Lockbacks
A. rear (eg: Buck 110)
B. mid (eg: Native)
C. front (eg: early Al Mars, Spyderco Rescue)
2. Linerlock
3. Rolling Lock
4. Axis Lock
5. Ultra Lock
6. Arc Lock
7. Frame Lock
8. Compression Lock
9. Balisong Lock


1.A. These have stood the test of time as others have said, they are not my personal favorite, and I don’t own a single one. The seem to work very well for the ELU that prefers some of the less expensive cutlery though, so I would not rule them out by any means.

1.B. These are quite similar IMHO to 1.A., but different at the same time. I own a few of them, my Calypso Jr. and my Boye Folder are two that come to mind. They seem to provide a good amount of lock strength, but are still a bit cumbersome to use one handed.

1.C. Don’t have any experience with these to be honest, so comments are minimal. They appear to be similar to the others lockback types though, and more like B than A.

2. Linerlocks are still one of my favorites… I know there are some reported problems with them, but I still trust most of them. I am a little picky as I have had two knives from well respected companies have worthless liner locks, but they also fixed the problem when confronted about it.

3. Rolling Locks suck as far as I can tell. I have had two REKAT’s with them, and got rid of both as quickly as possible. They stick, sometimes don’t engage right, and overall are a pain in my hind end. I also dislike the fact that they are not ambidextrous. I don't know if it is actually the lock or just the execution by REKAT, I was not satisfied with either of their knives that I owned, the fit, finish, and function that I desire were not there, so I doubt I will ever say another good thing about them or purchase one of their products.

4. I really like axis locks. My current EDC is an axis lock, and will continue to be until I get my custom folders that are on order in. They function well, I have never had one fail on me. It appears to be a very strong lock setup, but I do not have the numbers in front of me, and I have been proven wrong on this sort of thing before. The axis does have the problems of too many parts though. There is a lot of stuff that can go wrong and/or break, but I have never experienced it, and reports seem to be quite rare.

5&amp;6 I have no experience with. They appear similar to other formats discussed above, and from what I have heard are not as favorable as an axis lock, but I have no first hand experience.

7. I still also like frame locks. Some are well built, some are not. I think there is sufficient strength for what I use one for in the lock. I know they also have problems similar to liner locks in addition to the fact that they are quite weak at the bend, but I don’t generally put that much stress on a folding knife.

8. Compression locks look really sweet. I played with a couple at BLADE, and I am hoping that I can pick one or two up sometime soon, but I have to wait for the desired models to come out, and I need to save some cash due to upcoming deliveries.

9. I am a fan of the Balisong. I think it is the most reliable folding design that is in production. I have a few, and I have another on order. If/When the Spyderbali is a reality, I am probably going to be among the first in line to get one.

I think that when it comes to locks, one of the best ways to judge what you like is by looking at what you carry. I currently carry a BM 735(axis lock), Spyderco Calypso Jr. lightweight(mid), Boye folder(mid), and a number of fixed blades. As far as the folders I have on order, one is a liner lock, the other is a frame lock. I think the makers do excellent work, and I have total confidence in the product they produce. I have talked to both of them, and they appear to know their stuff when it comes to their lock, and have done a good bit of work to perfect it.

[Sword and Shield]

I have to step in regarding liner locks. My Kershaw Liner Action Tanto is very strong, and I never have given a second thought to the lock failing or even slipping. Opens in a flash, locks tight, flips shut just as fast.

While I understand how some &quot;lower&quot; companies offer weaker knives and locks, pay for quality and that is what you will receive.


Keepin' it real...real sharp, that is.

[Joe Talmadge]

S and S --

You may very well have a perfectly strong and reliable Kershaw there, so for the rest of this reply forget your Kershaw and let's speak more generally. What follows is just my opinion, but it's opinion that's backed up by probably at least an order of magnitude (if not two orders of magnitude) more hands-on testing than the average knife user.

To clarify, in your reply you have focused on the strength of the lock in your Kershaw and of the knife in general (&quot;offer weaker knives and locks&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>. No one is questioning the strength of a well-done liner lock; in fact, I personally say that a well-done liner lock is plenty strong. The problem here is reliability. This isn't a hypothetical concern: as I said, over and over again, liner locks have had a disproportionate number of problems in the field, and in testing. Furthermore, you absolutely cannot tell how reliable your liner lock is just by how strong the liner seems, or how solid the lockup <i>feels </i> . Testing is the only way to be sure -- and I say this because I've managed to get some very solid-looking, solid-feeling locks to give.

More importantly, my experience is directly contradictory to your statement, &quot;While I understand how some 'lower' companies offer weaker knives and locks, pay for quality and that is what you will receive.&quot; I've found there's only limited correlation between high-quality companies/makers and the reliability of their liner locks. I am decidedly not impressed with the liner locks of Microtech and Emerson, for example, though I believe both companies (especially Microtech, which really does raise the bar) are making a very sound product otherwise. Likewise, there are some very big-name makers whose liner locks used to be very suspect, though a couple of them have improved greatly in recent years -- still, they were already huge names when they were making suspect locks a few years ago. Liner locks are so difficult to consistently get right that even buying from a very high quality manufacturer or maker guarantees you little. That does not mean that some companies are not more successful than others at making reliable liner locks -- Benchmade's liner locks are excellent, and Spyderco better still. But there are some surprising names in the &quot;suspect reliability&quot; column.

I heartily recommend reading the Liner Lock Test FAQ and testing all your locks. Spyderco already does the most important tests in-house during QA, probably one of many factors as to why they are pretty successful with their locks.

Joe
PS Sal, I'm not sure if I'm out of line by directly mentioning other manufacturers, but I needed to do so to illustrate one of my points. My apologies if you're uncomfortable with it, and I'll refrain from doing it again if you let me know.

[Carlos]

I am a fan of the linerlock, but all of this may be moot as I just asessed what's been happening with Spyderco and locks (that I know of), and I think that the linerlock's days at Spyderco may be numbered.

Item #1. Military is being moved to a compression lock,and Mil Jr will have one ab initio.

Item #2. Of several latest releases from Spyderco, two are compression locks (Gunting and Vesuvius), two are lockbacks (Chinook and Ayoob), and only one is a linerlock (Lum Chinese) -- and that one they tried to fit with other locks first (rolling, then lockback).

Item #3. New in-house folders over the next 6 months to 1 year? The Lil' Temperance folders, Meerkat, &quot;Salsa,&quot; and ATR. All compression locks except for the Meerkat, which has a new in-house lock.

Item #4. New custom collaborations? Wegner &quot;Lynx&quot; and Janich MBC. Both compression locks.

Item #5. We expect that a few of the present custom collabs with linerlocks to be discontinued this year to make room in the lineup.

I bet that in a year or two there will only be a few linerlock knives from Spyderco, either because their designs require it (Lum Chinese, Cricket) or because of custom maker preference with custom collabs. Alas poor linerlock, we hardly knew ye!

Edited by - Carlos on 7/1/2001 1:27:24 AM

[sal]

Hi S&amp;S. Welcome to the Spyderco forum.

Hi Joe. I don't mind metnioning other company names on this forum (especially the Tekno). I don't think I would want to do it on BF though.

I think linerlocks will have their place in smaller knives in the future. the built in problems that Joe mentioned are real. Even the Kershaw that is rock solid now, may not be in 3 years. We have done a great deal of R&amp;D on these locks to get where we are, but they can never have a really high ultimate strength because of the direction of the forces when tested.

We recently broke a Buck Strider and Emerson's &quot;#1 hard use knife in the world&quot; (at least that's what it said on the box). Both rated medium duty (over 50 inch/lbs per inch - under 100 inch/lbs per inch) by our standards. For comparison the Calypso jr is heavy duty (over 100 inch/lbs per inch of blade length).

BTW. Pulleeaaze don't repeat this outside of this forum. I'm not trying to cause argument.

The reason reliability is difficult in linerlocks is because of how critical the interface is. Angle, materials, wear and surface finish all affect the interface and all change with time.

sal

[Tightwad]

Hi Sal, At the first of this thread you stated that this was a &quot;learning misson&quot;. So with that in mind I
offer this thought....The linerlock seems to be a least favored type of lock with the various &quot;types&quot; of lockbacks getting better press. Your new compression lock (as I see it ) is another simpler type of
lockback that looks to be a strong safe lock. Now to where I'm going with this.... the lum chinese
is a very good well proven old asian utility blade that is still very much favored in the east. It works
for 99.9% of daily chores with great ease. But......It is a liner lock. Before you groan &quot;not again&quot; !
please consider converting the chinese to a compression lock or a front lockback (in the manner of
A.G. Russells' famed &quot;one hand&quot; knife. ) when / if it is ever offered in FRN handle. I've read else
where that FRN has crossed other folk's mind as it has mine. I've used the chinese design years
ago in Asia in a slip joint and liked it then. So this &quot;Type&quot; of lock change might help sales of this
model &amp; cost to the consumer. My point here is that any folding knife made CAN be made in a
lockback of some type. Would I buy a chinese in FRN lockback ....I might but as long as it's a
linerlock I know I won't. As a consumer I stick with what work's for me. I'm sure many others
feel the same way.

[Joe Talmadge]

Sal: I think a year or two ago I switched to a similar position on liner locks: a nice option on gents' folders and smaller lighter-use knives, unacceptable on larger, harder-use knives. This was a modification of my somewhat extreme previous position: &quot;unsafe at any speed&quot; <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Tightwad: I don't look at the compression lock as a lockback variant; it is decidedly a liner lock variant, to my eyes. However, it theoretically solves many liner lock problems, and will hopefully fulfill the original promises of the liner lock. The liner lock is deceptive: on the outside, it looks so simple (just a slit in the liner), but it is actually outrageously difficult to make a good one. In fact, even the added complexity of adding omega springs, milling out handle slots, etc (ala the axis lock) yields a lock that is more consistently reproducible than a &quot;simple&quot; liner lock, because the only problems that need to be solved seem to be spring technology, rather than complex geometry changes. The compression lock, in a very simple and elegant way, promises to solve the most difficult problems the liner lock has. And it solves all of them all at once. Bushing and washer compression, change in tang/liner geometry over time, change in handle geometry under torque or other load.

Joe

[Tightwad]

Hi Joe, As a consumer I can lay no claim to any level of expertise about knife locks at all. My comments
were intended for Sal and the readers (you et. al.) to see how a consumer might view this subject. I'd
have to agree with you 100% about the compression lock. It is a variant of a linerlock differing only
where it engages the blade.... on the back of the blade. Thus as a consumer I'd consider that to be a
&quot;type&quot; of lockback with he exact mechanics of which, for this discussion, is unimportant. The mix
of expert opinions (such as yours) and those of consumers ( such as mine) comprise the information
that Sal was looking for I hope. Consumers tend to lump &quot;type&quot; together as one kind. I feel kinda
special that a person of your level of experience cared to comment on my offering . Thank's

[GronK]

Don't mean to pull this thread off-subject, but would just like to express my appreciation to you, Sal, and your company for continually searching for improvements in an already excellent product line. This came to my attention when I recently received my second &quot;Viele&quot;. I've owned the earlier version with serrations for some time and have carried it as a large gent's folder. I decided to try one of the new ones in plain. The improvements you've made are spectacular! They make it the best, by far, of all the liner locks I've tried. Still silky smooth, but solid as a rock!

[scolby]

My only expertise on this subject is regularly rotating my selection of &quot;gent's knives&quot;. Since I am an urban dweller (San Francisco) I only carry folders that have a blade less than 3 inches long. Without question the &quot;liner-lock&quot; is the most useful for me. Easy to open and fast to close. I have never attempted to fell a tree or pry open a wooden crate with a 2.5 inch blade in the City, so the lock failure that many folks refer to simply does not come into play in these situations. My only problem with the liner lock is that some makers (Klotzli in particular) have not provided an adequate detent on some of their Walker knives, which allow them to open in the pocket occasionally.

My only use for large folders would be for camping. Frankly, alhtough I love carrying the folders, when I go camping, I carry a Dozier fixed blade.

Finally, the lock that is not on this list is the twist-lock, such as on the Opinel. My only problem with this lock is that under harder use, the twist-lock can occasionally freeze up and be hard to open. This lock produces an unmatchable function to cost ratio for everyday use.

[bensano]

Now the view from the left. Well the left handers at any rate.

The only locks that are lefty friendly are the lockback and the axis lock (don't know about the compression yet) which is why my usual carrys are the BM735, the Native and a bunch of A.G Russell gentlemen's lock backs. The only other lock type I have is a integral or liner lock (don't know which to call it) on a pearl handled BM330.
About the biggest knife I would feel safe with that type of lock for us lefties.

Ben Sano

[Shmackey]

I have a couple of questions about the compression lock now that I've handled the Gunting and Vesuvius.

I see how it eliminates the problems that arise from complex geometry changes as seen in liner locks. But I wonder how it deals with two other liner lock issues that have turned me off from that category:

(1) Can the compression lock keep the blade in the handle (closed) any better than a liner lock? The ball detent always seems like an afterthought to me, as opposed to the way Axis locks and lockbacks use the tension of their spring to directly retain the blade over a safe arc.

(2) Is it possible to vary the location of the compression lock release? The one on the Vesuvius was so far forward (and on top) that I got the feeling my thumb would release it accidentally. This is analagous to the way liner locks can close accidentally.

Sal, here's a thought on locks that was running through my mind this morning: why don't we see one-hand-opening knives that *require* two hands to close? I'd take a tradeoff in which I forego the one time in my life I might ever *need* to close a knife one-handed in exchange for the tremendous increase in safety.

One last thought. I do own one linerlock knife: the Lum Chinese. It's the best-executed linerlock I've ever seen. That said, I always keep a beater lockback around just in case.

[sal]

Tighwad. We'll need some history before we can answer. It really is a new lock concept. Because something looks like something else is sometimes a problem. In most cases, the more you know about knives and quality, the better Spyderco looks.

Hey Bensano, welcome to the Spyderco forum.

Hi Schmackey.

1) There is a learning curve. We can make ball detents that are just about impossible to open with one hand, but that took a while. We can make the compression lock hold the blade closed quite well, but the distance of the effect of the spring is not as great as a spring pressure against the tang back as opposed to the tang side. The flip side is that it's not likely to catch the tip of a finger while &quot;springing&quot; closed.

2) We've tried the release in a number of areas, even the bottom like a linerlock. At this time, we feel the current location is most effective. farther back gets hard to release.

3) &quot;2 handed close&quot; - we have two lock designs in R&amp;D with that concept.

thanx for the kind words on the Chinese Folder. a great team effort.

sal

Edited by - sal on 7/12/2001 7:36:39 PM

[Carlos]

Hi Sal,

I have a compression lock question: Why does it need two liners? (as on Gunting, Vesuvius, and Temperance[?]). Looking at the design it appears to be a one-piece lock like a linerlock.

[Ed Gordon]

Just a couple thoughts on a few lock types I have experience with:

Lockbacks: Good lock, ambidextrious, only time I do not like them is if during push cut the blade rises past the normal stop point.

Liner lock: Only strong point to me is that during push cut the stop pin keeps blade in place. I have some knives with liner locks I trust (Starmate, Herbst, AFCK, misc. CRKT's) and some I don't trust 100%.

Axis lock: A fantastic lock, no complaints and trust it 100%

Frame lock / Sebenza type: Only have two CRKT S-2's to reference but both work great and I trust them 100%

[sal]

Hi Carlos. The strength comes in the shear strength of steel. In order for the Compresson lock to fail, it has to push the nested anvil pin through the steel liners (2) or shear the lock vertically. We build them so the steel on top of the anvil pin will hold the pin in place so the lock shears. If there were just one liner, the handle material would have to hold the anvil pin in position, most handle materials aren't strong enough.

sal

[Carlos]

So desu!

[Carlos]

Hi Sal,

One more thought: So would bolsters increase compression lock strength even further, or would they just be redundant?

Edited by - Carlos on 7/25/2001 5:06:40 PM

[frank k]

hello all,
I don't have experience with many of the lock types listed, but after having several of my &quot;tactical&quot; folders fail spine whacks, I have sworn off buying any new linerlocks or lock backs. I find myself using fixed blades whenever possible. I do trust the Meyerco Blackie Collins boltaction I have and have been saving up for an Axis lock. I also believe my CS Twistmaser's Opinel type lock, but in it's present form is not suitable for one hand opening - lock could possibly could be spring driven though.

[sal]

Hi Carlos. IT depends on what breaks when we test it. If the liners are not strong enough and the anvil pin is pushed through the top, then nesting the anvil pin in both liner and bolster would make it stronger. But for now, the lock is shearing when w2e break it, which is what we're after. The nest step is to increase the strength of the lock itself so it doesn't shear. Then we'll see what breaks?

sal

[Carlos]

Thanks Sal.

It would be interesting to see bolsters used in a functional fashion, rather than the recent trend of cosmetic usage.

[V-1]

1.A.B.C. Lockbacks.
I liked these on smaller pocket knives until I bought a Chinook. I never realized a lockback could be designed so strong. I know, I know... Never doubt Spyderco to raise the bar above your expectations. In this lock category I by far prefer the mid lock location.

2. Linerlock.
Can't say I trust this lock on anything more than a low stress use environment such as in a gents knife opening mail at the office. In this regard my Centofante Jr excels. It seems difficult to pull off consistentcy in the manufacturing process of this type of lock. I've seen examples of the same knife have vastly differnet lock ups and wear rates. Not to mention the wear seems excessive on most that I've seen.

3. Rolling Lock. No really experience other then my intial impressions looking at them at shows and shops. Does not seem to be that smooth of a lock. I suspect that very well might have nothing to do w/ the design of the lock and more to do w/ REKAT's manufacturing techniques. I would consider buying this lock if it was executed properly.

4. Axis Lock. Very impressed. Smooth, quick, sturdy. The 710 that I bought right after they were released has been subjected to much abuse. Used more as a fixed blade then a folder in as many diverse settings such as the shop floor of a large OEM manufacturer where it has been subjected to coolants, weld sparks, slag off burn tables, prying (I know, not a good thing), extreme temperture changes (sat in water under a plate of 100XF domex sheet steel on a burn table while parts were cut out) that I thought probably affected the temper of the springs but they haven't broke yet. The knife has also been used in water envirnoments working on piers/boats on the Cheasapeake Bay. Has been used to whittle and for &quot;chopping&quot; wood while waiting for food to cook on the grill for a couple summers. Still waiting for one of the springs to let loose. Seems very resistant to wear. I didn't use my dial calipers to see where the lock was setting when opened when I originally got it to compare to now but to the naked eye it doesn't seem to have moved up the tang much if at all (I'm sure it moved some but we are probably talking in the .010 to .030 range).

5. Ultra Lock &amp; 6. Arc Lock
No experience so I can't comment but uncomfortably close to the axis lock. I'm sure Benchmade had a patent lawyer look at those.

7. Frame Lock. The only frame lock I have experience in is a small Sebenza. Simplicity at it's finest. Doesn't seem to have the same rapid wear problem that liner locks have, for obvious reasons.

8. Compression Lock. Have not had the pleasure to try this lock out yet so I can't comment. Haven't even got to play w/ one at a show yet. Want to pick up one of your varieties of compression locks and put it through it's paces for about a year at work, the woods and home before I pass judgement. Interesting design.

9. Balisong Lock. Only experience w/ these were on cheap knives that had sloppy fitting. Latches would not line up right and were loose. Due to those reason's it wouldn't be fair to comment.

As an aside, the ability to close the lock w/ one hand has to be my last concern when assessing a lock. Ability to open one handed is very important to me but closing one handed is not. Strength and reliability are my main concerns above all others.

Ah, it worked this time (moved this from it's own post to thsi one)!

[ElectricZombie]

1. Lockbacks
A. rear (eg: Buck 110)
B. mid (eg: Native)
C. front (eg: early Al Mars, Spyderco Rescue)
2. Linerlock
3. Rolling Lock
4. Axis Lock
5. Ultra Lock
6. Arc Lock
7. Frame Lock (Chris Reeve style integral linerlock)
8. Compression Lock
9. Balisong Lock



1A. Rear Lockback: Strong and reliable but slightly harder to disengage when placed at rear.
1B. Mid Lockback: My preference for lockbacks. Nice and easy. Best of lockbacks.
1C. No experience.

2. Linerlock: Easy to close with one hand. However, I don't 100% trust them. I seriously doubt my Military would fail but, who knows. When made properly, I don't see any problems with a liner lock.

3. Rolling Lock: I've played with this one a little bit and think it's ok. Seems very strong, yet left handed people might not like it. Seems well designed.

4.Axis Lock: One of the most intelligent lock designs ever. Very strong. Takes a little getting used to when closing. Possible disengagement concerns although I've never heard of this happening.

5. Ultra Lock: No experience

6. Arc Lock: I don't like SOG products so, I wouldn't buy it regardless. Dosn't look as good as the Axis.

7. Frame Lock: One of my favorites because of the simplicity. I don't really see one of these ever failing. A shame that only a few companies make them.

8. Compression Lock: Looks like it could be a winner. I've played around with a Gunting, and thought the lockup was good. Accidental disengagement dosn't look possible. Looks very strong.

9. Ballisong Lock: I don't see how this could possibly fail. Overall, the toughest lock mentioned.



Personally, I do like liner locks. I've only had cheap ones fail, and certainly not my Spydercos. Despite this, I would like to see more &quot;super heavy duty&quot; locks such as Chinook type lockbacks, frame locks and compression locks. If Spyderco were to make a frame lock, I and countless others would certainly buy it. Older models such as the Military would only benefit from a lock upgrade. Other than overall lock strength, the ability to open and close the knife easily with one hand is very important to me. However, I'd rather this ability suffer than the lock strength.

What I value in a lock:
1. Strength
2. Ease of opening/closing
3. Long term durability/reliability
4. User adjustable if needed

[sal]

Thanx much. I really appreciate the time and effort in this discussion. I learned a lot. I can say that I believe there will be many new locks over the next 5 years. I know Spyderco is working on 2 more. I also have heard of more in the works with other companies. Locks could be in the middle of a revolution. Certainly fun for the aficianado, probably confusing for the general public.

In 10 years, there will be so many varieties of locks tht just having one will make the difference. There are many types of suspension for autos, few know the differences.

sal

[dialex]

I was browsing and found this particulary interesting one. Can it be updated?

[Sword and Shield]

You also found one of my first posts on this forum, Dialex! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

Keepin' it real...real sharp, that is.

[drbones666]

Ok, I know some of you folks are tired of me and my Cold Steel Recon 2 Tanto but the lock (rolling) is just the slickest thing around. I can snap it open with the slightest wrist flick and it's not going to close (I think) unless I put it in a vise and pound it with 50 lb sledge hammer. Sal, have you put one of these through it's paces?

Just want to add here that my Chinook is still my main (right pocket) knife and would be the first to come out in a fight which is the reason I carry knives in the first place. Paranoid? Well, 20 years ago I got in a knife fight with 2 guys and I was the only one who forgot to bring a knife. It CAN happen. I now live in the 3rd world (Malaysia) and so it pays to be prepared. what else would you expect from an old Boy Scout?

[dano]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone has mentioned CRKT's Blade Lock folder. Seems to be working fine, for my applications of that particular knife. Has it been tested?

--dan

[liko]

1. Lockbacks
A. rear (eg: Buck 110)
B. mid (eg: Native)
C. front (eg: early Al Mars, Spyderco Rescue)
2. Linerlock
7. Frame Lock (Chris Reeve style integral linerlock)
8. Compression Lock
9. Balisong Lock

1.) My favorite lock besides the Compression lock. Strong, relaible, and simple. However, if it fails, it fails catastrophically, leaving absolutely nothing to keep the blade from closing. I've never seen a knife that wasn't abused fail, however, so it's not something I worry about.
1A) Allows for a very strong lock depending on the placement of the pivot pin and the leverage involved. However, the lock falls in a more awkward place when it comes time to close the knife. It's much harder to close the knife one-handed.
1B) The easiest of lockbacks to close. My Native can be flick-closed with ease. The ease of closing, however, has to be balanced with the resistance to the lock opening inadvertently.
1C) For a compact knife, this can be worth it, but in most cases this is the worst implementation of the lockback in my opinion. You have almost no leverage in opening the knife, and the spring has to be strong to avoid white-knuckle closing.
2.) My least favorite. Even the ones from Spyderco look too flimsy to trust. They wear out quickly, requiring an eccentric pivot to avoid blade play. The long strip of metal that forms the lock has the stress distributed along its entire length, creating a &quot;weakest link&quot; situation. Its saving graces are a very smooth opening, and the fact that if it does fail, that long strip jams in the well of the knife and helps prevent the knife from closing on your fingers.
8.) My favorite lock by far. Smooth-opening, solid lockup, and STRONG. If the lock were to fail, it would probably be at the stop pin. This could be catastrophic, but use a solid steel pin a quarter of an inch thick with stress only over a length equal to the width of the blade well, it's never been a concern. The thin liner that forms the lock isn't much of a concern either, since it's only about 3/8&quot; at its widest, meaning there's little possibility of it folding. The curved tang ramp is also a plus, meaning that the knife automatically adjusts for wear and blade play. The con is the weak closed bias in many designs, like the Gunting. The ball bearing detent in the Salsa works quite well, but the Gunting's ramp bias allows for accidental openings quite easily. IMO, adding a BB detent in the Gunting would make for a stronger bias when closed, while not sacrificing much in the flick-open area.
9.) This is hardly a lock. You flip the two handles open, and your hand is the lock. This knife isn't going anywhere once it's open. Closed may present some problems. There's a slight concern of accidental opening, but if carried tip down in a pocket, the handles provide more than enough protection from being cut by a half-open knife. It does, however, require practice to open as fast as a normal folder.

[Shang Chi]

I have owned knives with most of the lock mechanisms mentioned and I've never actually had any of them fail on me, probably because I've never misused any of them. I think all the locks mentioned are adequate when a folder is used as designed.

Some locks &quot;feel&quot; more secure than others, to be sure, but as someone mentioned, &quot;feel&quot; doesn't substitute for actual testing, or shouldn't.

My primary consideration when examining a knife's locking mechanism is convenience in closing the knife, since the accidental closing of a knife is precisely what they are trying to prevent.

The best design I've seen, hands down, is the original Bali-song by Benchmade. I don't think it's possible to make a stronger lock, or to make one that disengages easier, since all you have to do is open your hand.

The Axis lock comes in a close second, in my opinion, since it's possible, with a bit of practice, to close the blade with the same &quot;switch-blade-like&quot; action as it is to open it.

The Arc lock looks like a modified Axis lock, but seems bulkier and more complex, but it functions much the same. I wonder how Benchmade feels about that.

The lock back on the Chinook seems a bit stiff (though it is loosening with use) and makes the opening of the blade somewhat harder than I would like, and it also makes it hard to close one-handed, but it locks like a bank vault, and is likely to be stronger than just about any other design other than the Bali-song. Of course, I haven't tested it, but as I said before, even lesser locks seem to be adequate when the knife is used properly.

I've never been much of a fan of liner-locks. I much prefer the mid-back locks on the Endura, Police Model, Chinook, etc. Liner locks seem to work ok, but they also seem to &quot;loosen&quot; somewhat with use, regardles of whether the scales are compromised by abuse or not; and I've simply never really liked the way they feel.

If anyone's concerned that a given lock will fail when you use a folder knife, I suggest you might be using the wrong tool for the job and you might want to consider using a straight knife with a full tang.

Edited by - Shang Chi on 10/15/2002 8:15:33 PM

[The Cool]

I'll just be brief as all the points I'd make have been well covered already.

1. Lockbacks - Love 'em! The Spydie ones anyway.

2. Linerlock - The lock I'm most uneasy about using. However I love the liner lock on the Military and Lum Chinese, and light use folders like the Cricket. I also really like the Microbar liner lock that Microtech uses, as it's thickness gives a feeling of confidence. (whether that bears out in the performance or not is another matter).

3. Axis Lock - Personally I'm not too keen on anything that uses little springs. I just prefer 'beefier' technology.

4. Frame lock - love 'em. My favourite lock. I wish Spyderco would do one!

5. Compression Lock - I really like this one too. Simple genius.

[The Cool]

Quick question is Bob Doziers Tab Lock the same as a compression lock. I haven't seen Doziers 'in the flesh', but it looks like the Ti Salsa's integral compression lock.

[AllenETreat]

Hi Sal :

For me, it's simple ( maybe even prejudiced ); I prefer the liner lock.
My view is that unless you're going to torture/abuse the knife, the liner (Walker) lock is relatively safe &amp; quick to deploy ( I can deploy my C29SBK cricket faster than most knives, including switchblades ) the thing is, it lacks ambidexturousness. As for the other mechanism(s)( BOTH new &amp; tried &amp; true ) I've no qualm(s) with'em <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Whatever works for the end user.
That's my view, in a &quot;nutshell&quot; <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

ATE <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

[Easyrider]

I'm not an expert on the subject, but since you are on a &quot;truth&quot; quest I'll add my input. I have owned both style of lockbacks(mid and rear), several Rolling Locks, linerlocks, and Axis Locks. I prefer the Axis lock the most, with the mid lockback second and the Rolling lock third. I don't really care for liner locks and the frame locks. The Rolling lock would be #2 if REKAT could have executed it better. Both the Axis and rolling locks offer ease of use, and in case of the Axis lock reliability. I'm sure all three locks I listed are stronger than the way I use a knife, that isn't an issue. The issue for me is reliability, ease of use, and longevity. That is one reason I dislike both the liner lock and frame lock. I also dislike having to put my finger in the way of a closing blade, yes I have cut myself closing a liner lock! I have looked at your Compression lock and it is interesting, but I feel it shares the same wear issue I have with liner/frame locks. I do want to take this opportunity to make mention about something I have happen with some lockbacks. I have had lockbacks that when doing some heavy cutting the lock would push up against the blade. It never caused any problems because as soon as pressure was released the lock would rengage. Just something I have noticed.
Sal, thank you for asking our opinions and experiences.

[dialex]

There's also a new guy in town. Its name: &quot;ball lock&quot;. I wonder how reliable is that coil spring.

[sal]

The first &quot;Ball bearing locks&quot; that will be shipping will be the Worlld Trade Center project pieces. We will begin shipping those next month.

The &quot;Dodo&quot; is scheduled for early 2003. We are having fun with the lock.

We're still refining and developing the Compression lock.

The concept of catastrophic failure, IMO is possible on any folder. Some argue that the linerlock won't, but if the lock is not made incorrectly and it disengages rather than bends, boom! If there is too much lubricant on a linerlock, it can also slide off of the ramp, if not made properly.

Even the butterfly knife knife is secured with pins. Pins that are about the same size as pins used for lock pivots on many knives. When we break knives (a regular habit at Spyderco), more often than not, it's the pins that go first. If the pin on a bali goes, that blade will come down on your fingers as fast as any folder that fails.

The key is reliability and strength, which we do by painstakingly testing all models all of the time.

sal

[Sword and Shield]

After writing my first post in this thread, I think I can maybe add a few more little tidbits that come to mind.

Lockbacks- In general, quite good. Some people may not like the Buck 110-style backlock, viewing it old-fashioned, but still plenty secure. However, I have finally found one I can open strictly with holding it. It's a Paki POCrap, with fairly decent looks. Oddly enough, it has kind of a &quot;reverse Boye indent&quot; on the lockbar, a hump sticking up. With big hands, it closes as easily as a slipjoint-no impedance.

Linerlock- If it's well executed, I like. My feelings here still haven't changed, as I don't use that particular knife for dirty/grimy work. However, I also have a poorly executed linerlock that is truly shameful. Loads of play, and a paper-thin liner. Why Camillus put this out is beyond me.

Walker LAWKS- I've only seen this on one knife, and could only form superficial thoughts on it in the store. My thought- The lock seems strong. However, if &quot;ease of deployment/unlocking&quot; is a factor, this knife is a bust. An entirely new range of fine motor skills are needed to use it, and it simply isn't worth the trouble.

Never underestimate the impossible.

[cougar337]

found this post while browsing the forums and thought I would bump it up for newbe's that could find this info useful, like me.

it is possible to have picture examples of each lock? I can't seem to visualize what each lock looks like. Even if pictures are too hard to get a hold of, maybe give an example knife for each lock type

Edited by - cougar337 on 5/21/2004 5:23:18 PM

[Sword and Shield]

Which haven't you seen?

Going from memory on the ones starting the list:

Back-backlock- Try the Buck 110, or any of its clones.
Mid-Backlock- Native, Endura
Front-Backlock- Al-Mar put one of these out, I think.
Linerlock- Kershaw Whirlwind
Compression lock- &lt;img src=&quot;spyder.gif&quot; width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0&gt; Salsa
Butterfly lock- &lt;img src=&quot;spyder.gif&quot; width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0&gt;Fly, Benchmade BM42.
Axis lock- Benchmade 910
Ultralock- Cold Steel Recon 1
Arclock- SOG Sculptura
Framelock- Chris Reeve Sebenza, Camillus Dominator

I'll see if I can dredge up any more examples. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

The Man's Prayer- I am a man. But I can change. If I have to. I guess...

Edited by - Sword and Shield on 5/22/2004 7:58:36 PM

[cougar337]

The ones I'm interested in is:

Compression Lock
Axis Lock
Ultra lock
Arc lock
Frame lock

Your examples are great and I will research them so I have an idea of what these locks look like and can do. It seems like the Axis lock is a favorite of the crowd from the responses in this post but I have never had the opertunity to try one myself. Does Spyderco have a knife that has a Axis lock?

Pictures are a ++++ in my book because I'm a visual person, so if you find any please post them here for me

[Alan2112]

I think Joe summed it up pretty well. I do tend to think on the lock back style, that the front lock(Al Mar, Rescue etc.) is more profecient. It seems to lock up better, and it is defenately more user friendly. I commend Sal for this discussion, this is why <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>co is the best knife manufacturer! RKBA!

[thombrogan]

Sword and Shield,

Did you mean the 710? It was the first to carry the axis lock.

[Sword and Shield]

Oh, that's right. It's the 710. Pardon me. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

The Man's Prayer- I am a man. But I can change. If I have to. I guess...

[thombrogan]

Sword and Shield,

No problemo. If I don't make over 700 errors a day, it means I'm coming down with something (and it's usually a sinus infection or cold; never a clue <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> ).

Memory fails me, but over at the bladeforums place (anyone ever hear of it?), Sal mentioned that Spyderc<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> has some even newer locks in the works. I'm very happy with the compression lock and various backlock/midlock/frontlock lockbacks, but it'd be cool to see 'em.

[Sword and Shield]

Guess you need hit with a clue-by-four, that'll cure you. Hold still... <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

The Man's Prayer- I am a man. But I can change. If I have to. I guess...

[thombrogan]

Owee! And still I'm stupid!

My pal, Kuanomar, has come up with a new lock, but he doesn't post on this forum yet. When it comes out, you'll see it. It's very cool.

[Petorro]

Hi everybody,

I have some questions on locking systems.

Currently I own only lockbacks, balis and a few Opinels -those simple French knives with the wooden handle.

For some reason I had always had some perplexity on liner locks; basically it was the feeling that a liner, even if made of good steel, could have a “memory” and break after years of usage, or simply that it could break while cutting something hard, causing harm to the hand holding the knife.
Then I thought that a titanium liner, being titanium elastic and thus much more “forgetful” than steel, could be the answer, and work fine “forever”.
I liked the idea of a folder that could be opened and closed with one hand, I liked the fact that liner locks can be more stylish than the good, old, bulky lockback. To tell it short, I had convinced myself that linerlocks were as solid as lockbacks, and that with a linerlock I could cut thick ropes or even big branches or bamboos (as I sometimes do with my serrated lockbacks) without fearing for my fingers.

Then I read the discussion on this forum and... The Horror! Great disillusion and disappointment! It was as if someone had told me that the beautiful girl I see every day at the train station (the one I’ve been secretly in love with for the last two years, but never had the courage to talk or even get close to) trusts Bearlousconey (1) and her breath stinks of rotten minced meat and garlic.

Can anyone restore my already weak faith in linerlocks? Where do you think I can read some tests or measurements of liners strength and resistance to daily use?
The linerlocks I had in mind to buy have either double 420C tempered steel or Titanium liners: are these good materials?

I live in Italy and here it is difficult to find Spydercos or Benchmades or any other good American knife for a reasonable price. They usually cost almost double than in the U.S.-I’m talking about online-stores prices- so my choice will be restricted to European knives. If anyone knows of a European online store selling Spydercos for reasonable prices, please tell me!

Thanks a bunch!

Pietro.


1) Not many of yis will get the joke. It's an Italian thing.

[Shards of Narsil]

Hi and welcome Petorro,

My experience is with lockbacks, but I don't think that lock is that bad.

Why don't you repost in the general section? The forumites there will fill you in on their experiences with the reliability of that lock very quickly.

Shards

[Pyrochazm]

I just gotta throw my pennies in.
I have had limited experience with some of the newer locks, and zero experience with the ball lock. but here are a few impressions.

Axis lock: My favorite, hands down. My Benchmade 805 goes through punishment everyday; Lots of lightning fast openings and the stabing of cardboard. I have had zero problems with that lock. you can even get a wealth of pocket lint in it and it seems to lock up just fine.

Compression lock: I love this one too. I have had limited experience with it, but the Paramilitary I handled was superb; Glassy-smooth wrist flick openings. Just looking at it, I knew it was pretty tough.

Liner locks: Hate em. simple as that. A year ago I owned an M16 CRK&amp;T that failed on me and cleaved right to the bone of my right pinkie. I'm sure that they perform just fine on anything but a hard-use knife,but I will never again buy one.

Arc-Lock: Again, limited experience with this one. But I gotta say I like it. I have handled an &quot;X-Ray ~~~ion&quot; that featured this lock and came away impressed. Obviously almost identical in concept to the Axis lock, but with slightly diffrent excecution.

Back lock/Mid lock: Another old favorite. You can operate one entirely one handed (On my endura and police at least) with a little practice. I have had one fail on me, but it was an old buck 110 that went through a tortureous life. It's now more like a slipjoint.

In short, I despise linerlocks, but they work, and If the military had a Compression lock and was tip uo carry, I would own one right now.

"My parents dropped acid back in the sevendies in an attempt to "Expand their conciousness" and then turned around and gave me Ritalin in the nineties to supress mine"

[thombrogan]

Pyrochazm,

Have you tried any linerlocks with the LAWKS added to them? My CRKT M16-014Z doesn't have one, but my CRKT Mt. Ranier does and it's an impressive safety mechanism to me.

[Petorro]

Thanks Pyrochazm. Your message confirms my suspects, and I'll leave linerlocks to those who want their fingers cut.
Anyway, thombrogan, I posted my doubts on linerlocks on other forums and I got a couple of answers suggesting me to check out the LAWKS system.
So I'll try to see if I can find a knife with that system to test out.

A la prochaine!
Petorro.

[thombrogan]

Petorro,

Knives that offer the LAWKS system include the Harsey Tactical folders sold by Lonewolf, most every linerlock sold by CRKT, and the folding Applegate-Fairbairn knives sold by Gerber.

[Pyrochazm]

I might have to have a look at the &quot;LAWKS&quot; system. I used to be a fan of liner locks for obvious reasons: Smooth operation (Even on junk knives) and one-hand operation. But I know have a misshapen pinkie (My own fault, but the lock DID fail) thanks to them. This Lawks system sounds interesing though. How does it work?

[thombrogan]

The LAWKS system works by placing a semicircular disk in the way of the top of the locking liner. Were you to push the liner with your thumb or torque the blade in a solid object, the semicircular disk keeps the liner from slipping off of the bottom of the blade.

[Pyrochazm]

Hey neat, mebe I'll give it a look

[cdf]

My two copper coins :
Lockbacks ,( mid and front ) : OK is done right , I've had spring breakages ( one kershaw,one Spyde , and one custom ) Rear lockbacks a'la Buck 110 - forget it !

Liner locks : The good , bad and the ugly , I've got some you would be hard pressed to fail and some you could fail at the drop of a hat . LAWKS : Just a patch on a leaky bucket , prolly wont be used in a stress situation (when most needed ) Buying a linerlock is like lending out your toothbrush , be VERY selective .

Frame locks (a'la Chris Reeves ) : Great &amp; simple but suck if not properly executed .They look like they impose design constrainsts on handles.

Compression lock , &amp; some variants : Seems nice and solid . I'd be happier to see it in Ti .

Axis lock ( the only one of this ganre I know ) : Very nice and smooth , very versitile , deff. a front runner!

Spyde. Ball lock : (a'la Dodo ) good when properly fitted , deceptivley simple ,but needs good Q.C. . My Dodo failed with lite pressurs o the back of blade , since corrected by me .

All heavy duty / hard use knives should have a functional choil . It saved me from a nasty cut when my Dodo let go !

Please accept these observations in the spirit in which they are offered .

[SouthNarc]

Has anyone had a compression lock fail? Other than the Gunting, what models use the compression lock?

[thombrogan]

Other locks that feature the compression lock include:

Li'l Temperance
ATR
Salsa
Ti Salsa
Older versions of Centofante's Vesuvius

I haven't heard of any failures and that's odd because people love sharing bad news. Especially when it's directed at great companies like Spyderco. We've heard of failing liner locks, failing lockbacks, failing Axis locks, failing framelocks, failing Ball Bearing Locks, but no failing Compression Locks.

[haji]

I couldn't read all the pages of this thread, becuase I'm at work right now. I didn't see much in the way of observances of dealers and what customers are saying. In my neck of the woods (SoCal), liner locks are king, and most people seem to want them. My opinion is that they're going to have a rep for failing because so many cheap knives are using them to fill a trend. Linerlocks are the easiest to botch, and even the highest end versions can have sticky lock bars. For people looking for a slim knife, the mid lock is the slimmest design I know of. It is a selling point for these knives. The Axis has indeed sold well. The knock offs of it, like the Arc Lock, work OK, but SOG's folders of late have been pretty poorly executed. Really, the bottom line is this: if a lock works smoothly, locks up well (no play in the blade), and IS DIFFERENT, it'll sell. My customers are looking for new locks and new designs all the time.

The Centofante 3 has already sold much faster than the Vesuvius did. It makes far more sense as a midlock than it did as a compression lock. That one is a tough sell, against the Axis and the liner/frame lock.

[alickw]

Hi guys, I've been away from the forum for a couple of years so it's interesting catching up with this thread. I have a few Spyderco lockbacks and the linerlock military. I'm very happy with all of them.

Out of curiousity and in the spirit of the thread I'd be interested in comments on the design of linerlock used in the Microtech vector. This uses a separate piece of steel for the linerlock rather than being formed from the liner itelf. It always struck me as being more substantial and potentially stronger than any other linerlock I've used, but I don't fancy testing it hard enough to find out. :D

I like the sound of the compression lock - perhaps the best yet - but just haven't had the chance to play with one. I love the smoothness of spyderco's ball bearing lock but find it a bit fiddly to close. Great engineering though !

Also looking forward to Sal's interpretation of the slip joint for those of us over here in the UK.

Cheers, Alick

[Michael Janich]

Great thread with lots of great input. Thanks, Sal, for inspiring such a good discussion.

I'd just like to mention that all locks consist of three elements: design, engineering, and execution. A great design that is poorly engineered or executed will inevitably yield a crappy lock. That's why liner locks have such a bad reputation -- there are more examples of poorly executed liner locks out there than probably any other type of lock. Properly executed, however, I like them. My favorites, as Alickw described, are those with separate locking bars rather than split liners. In addition to Microtech, this type of lock was also used in all the original Masters of Defense knives and is still used in the James Keating Hornet.

I was very impressed with the original compression lock, which is why I opted for it when given a choice of locks for my Spyderco Yojimbo design (one of the knives that missed thrombrogan's list, along with the Paramilitary). I like the way the Paramilitary did away with the milled shelf in the tang/ricasso of the Gunting and Lil' Temperance, yet still provided a good detent function by wrapping around the kick of the blade. I wish the engineering of the Yojimbo could have included this feature as well.

Also, although I am still a great fan of the compression lock, I still don't understand why the first production knives had some vertical blade play. Current production models are very solid and live up to the potential of the lock. Sal, did you ever determine the exact nature of the problem with the early Yojimbos?

Finally, one lock that I'd like to add to the list if I may is the plunge lock -- basically a push-button lock based on the release button used on most modern automatic knives. Does anyone have any thoughts on or experiences with these?

Again, thanks for a great thread.

Stay safe,

[cdf]

Funny you should mention that mr. J. I just aquired a pre Blackhawk version of the D.Dieter CQD . It looks plenty strong ! I worry a bit about mud/dust/sand . I'm also looking at some of the small Blackhawk/MOD folders , They seem plenty strong in relation to size and weight ! The plunge locks are not fast closers , generally that is not a huge issue , however it is not a positive onehand close .

[Michael Janich]

Dear cdf:

Thanks for your post. Actually, the manual plunge locks are included among the lock mechanisms that you can close one-handed without having to put your fingers in the way of the blade (Axis locks, Arc locks, compression locks, and rolling locks also fall into this category). With a plunge lock, just push the button to release the lock and swing the blade down into the handle. Obviously, this won't work with autos, but it should work fine with the manuals.

Stay safe,

[TheSurgeon]

1. Lockbacks: Not too complicated and easy to make reliable, they suffer from two problems. One, the stronger you make the lock, the harder the knife is to open. Two, it is difficult to close one-handed, and some blade shapes (Civilian) make it rather perilous to close one-handed. The Boye-type cut-out is a must have refinement. A mid or front position for the lock-back is essential for easier one-hand closing.


I absolutely disagree with Carlos about the Civilian(!)
I can take it off from my waist and slam it open without touching the thumb hole in 1 second (!) - and close it one handed and clip it back on to the waist in 2 seconds.
I have never cut myself by doing it - and I believe I never will.
Bottom line - I like lockbacks because they are simple strong and reliable.
It's one of the oldest locking mechanism not without a reason.
I have tried out many other types, but lockbaks are the best for me - period.
I especially like the lockbacks with a little hump on the locking back (like Delika, Civilian)
so the my thumb can find it's place right away when it's comes to closing the blade.
I believe in lockbacks so much that I don't buy the Military because it's not a lockback, even that Military is my favorite design if I am not looking the weight and the locking mechanism. - but I don’t want to confuse myself having too many different kind of knifes with different locking mechanism... when it comes to play how fast I can have my knife in the ready position I am sure that I'm not going to have enough time to think - if it's a lockback or not so I keep every knife with the same locking mechanism. - everything should be routine and fast. If the time of drawing a blade doesn't matter than whatever what locking mechanism you have, just have to be safe and strong..
TheSurgeon

[DAYWALKER]

Aloha!

Wow...VERY late for this one! :o

I like lockbacks, but I also like liner locks...they're smooth! I just pray that one day, if a knife is done with the liner lock ala Walker or Reeve's style, it will be made for southpaws also. Even if just a sprint run of left handed versions...

I ALWAYS get "bummed out" when I go to The Deacon's site, and NOT see Crickets, Walker's, Herbst's, Military's (Although I know he has one..or a few even! :D ), Viele's, Lum's, etc...because, and I hope it's safe to assume this Paul, he is left handed!

I don't know how feasible it would be to do a sprint for southpaws, but I think it should be a standard procedure on ONLY the BEST SELLERS, which posses this type of lock, i.e.: Cricket! ( I say best sellers because in that way, it would be feasible IMHO) While I'm a righty, I would buy a few southpaw liner lock versions of ANY :spyder: for that matter!


God bless! ;)

[The Deacon]

************************************************** ****
DISCLAIMER: CHECK THE DATES, THIS THREAD IS OVER 4 YEARS OLD
************************************************** ****

But it is interesting, and JD was looking for it, so I resurected it. :o :D

[JD Spydo]

************************************************** ****
DISCLAIMER: CHECK THE DATES, THIS THREAD IS OVER 4 YEARS OLD
************************************************** ****

But it is interesting, and JD was looking for it, so I resurected it. :o :D

This is the thread I was talking about for sure. But I could have swore that there was more pages to it than this :confused: Probably because I used so much paper when I printed a copy for myself. I see this thread actually originated in 2001 and I could have also swore that it was a 2004 thread.

Oh well it's up and running and maybe it was an apropos time to re-ignite it :cool:

But I was right about most of it anyway. I bet there's not many Spyderites that even remembered this thread so give me just a little credit anyway :D

[Lord Bear]

This is a truly great thread. Thank you again Spydo and Deacon.

[VashHash]

It is an interesting read. I was curious about earlier comp locks and the vertical play issue. I have an orginal para that has the issue and a yojimbo that does it too. Nothing that really concerns me just curious. We can add the cbbl to the list now too. Again I know this thread is over 10years old from the start and its obviously being brought back again. I think maybe we can add some more input. As sal stated this wasn't a race anyway. It takes time to evaluate a lock.

[Donut]

I wouldn't mind keeping this thread going, it has a good purpose. I will try to document the plus and minus, advantage and disadvantage of each lock.

In Sal's OP, he said he wanted more of a long term and less of a short term report of the locks.

[steeldust]

I just read the 10 years of this thread. In 2001, some people thought linerlocks were weak and even unsafe. Today, Spyderco uses linerlocks on the following harder use folders: military,Gayle Bradley, rock lobster,Perrin PPT, rescue. What's changed? I would love to hear from the early contributors to this thread, and to the many experts in the knife world.

[Lord Bear]

I too read this thread and got some real eye-openers.
Lock strength and reliability are not one and the same. :eek: I actually never knew that they were two separate attributes.
The linerlock thing bears out my experience. Around the time G10 first became popular as a handle material, I had my first and only lock failure. The linerlock actually failed to hold open! (Relax all...not a Spyderco. ;)) After reading this thread I think I understand. There was no arc just a flat surface for lockspring engagement. Hard to make a linerlock reliable. Requires enginuity.
My favorite line comes from the original post's ending.
(As OP said I too would like to credit whoever said it first. :))
"They call them fixed blades cuz they ain't broke."

[thelock]

I love the compression lock, I wish spyderco would make more knives with this locking mechanism.

[Donut]

How tough would it be to do an upsized para, a millie size with a compression lock?

[chuck_roxas45]

How tough would it be to do an upsized para, a millie size with a compression lock?

I'd love one. I guess it would be just as hard as making a new design though.

[Evil D]

I have to say, if the Military had a compression lock, i might have bought one over my Para 2.

[Lord Bear]

To sum up (from what I remember of this thread...) the compression lock came out somewhere near the top. I don't remember if it was because of lock strength or reliability.
Although a fan of the Military, since this thread, I have been eyeing the Para Military. A compression lock Military would hands down be something I'd like to get my hands on.
(I've only seen pix of the compression lock so just guessing here. But it seems able to be used ambidextrously? Anyone?)

[thelock]

To sum up (from what I remember of this thread...) the compression lock came out somewhere near the top. I don't remember if it was because of lock strength or reliability.
Although a fan of the Military, since this thread, I have been eyeing the Para Military. A compression lock Military would hands down be something I'd like to get my hands on.
(I've only seen pix of the compression lock so just guessing here. But it seems able to be used ambidextrously? Anyone?)Yes, it can be used ambidextrously! You have to try it man, you would love it.

[jossta]

I guess it might still be open for discussion, but isn't the Military 2 supposed to have the stop lock? Then I don't see this happening. I would totally be down though.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Unless there are more really great steels released on the Para2 model I won't get any more. I'm not a fan at all. Sure it's strong...but I just find it too uncomfortable under my thumb. If the Comp lock were more middle of the knife, then sure I would be great with it. But I am very very glad that the Military 2 won't have a comp lock.

Though to be fair, I thought that the lock on the Junior was far superior.

Liner lock, back lock, ball bearing lock...all preferred by me over the comp lock.

I also find that most frames locks are not really great for a lefty. Some are ok, depending on the overall design...but as of yet, I don't own a single one.

[SolidState]

I made a design that I submitted to spyderco and they liked it enough to proto it. Since then, I've been reading this thread and studying lock patents with the fervor of a fanatic. For my design, I need to divorce the unity of the compression lock in order to have a compression-style lock on my design. I think I may have come up with a new lock and I have to cough up major dough to patent that thing.

I have come to a few conclusions from my studies:
1. American patent law sucks
2. Reliable manufacture requires sloped surfaces.
3. The compression lock is, in my view, the safest way to engage a lock on a blade.

[Cheddarnut]

Great thread.
In my experience (fairly limited) the perception of strength is what sold me on certain knives, as an internet knife purchaser i rely on hype to guide me. I hate that, but save buying every variation of knife/lock to test myself its the economic reality.
I like to think i need 'hard use' knives, which is one of the reasons i was attracted to striders briefly, but soon after realized that i dont use my knives hard at all, it was more of an issue that the PT i had was semi difficult to open and close safely, an my priorities shifted. I too find the axis lock on my BM 525 mini to be comfortable, thats what i need in a knife. It has to feel good. You have to want to use it. Id be more likely to rebuy a knife that feels good when its mechanism wore out, than suffer a longer use period with a knife that was stronger but felt like crap opening/closing. Again i can accept this because i realized i wasnt hard on my blades so the ultimate strength became a moot point.
Forgive me if i missed a reference to this or if it was implied in a different mechanism name, but i find the BBL to be my favorite spyderco lock. Its perception of strength is high, its 'cool' factor is high, the issue i have with it is difficulty closing one handed (those who use a manix likely know the 'last three fingers on the clip' closing grip :)) compared to the axis lock. Its minor in the greater scheme of things, but when im tired and dont want to have to worry about any discomfort during my day, ill reach for my axis lock.
I suppose all this to say that theres more at stake for me with a locking mechanism than its official duty.

[Cheddarnut]

Whoa, ancient thread! My bad. *blows dust off op*

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Great thread.
In my experience (fairly limited) the perception of strength is what sold me on certain knives, as an internet knife purchaser i rely on hype to guide me. I hate that, but save buying every variation of knife/lock to test myself its the economic reality.
I like to think i need 'hard use' knives, which is one of the reasons i was attracted to striders briefly, but soon after realized that i dont use my knives hard at all, it was more of an issue that the PT i had was semi difficult to open and close safely, an my priorities shifted. I too find the axis lock on my BM 525 mini to be comfortable, thats what i need in a knife. It has to feel good. You have to want to use it. Id be more likely to rebuy a knife that feels good when its mechanism wore out, than suffer a longer use period with a knife that was stronger but felt like crap opening/closing. Again i can accept this because i realized i wasnt hard on my blades so the ultimate strength became a moot point.
Forgive me if i missed a reference to this or if it was implied in a different mechanism name, but i find the BBL to be my favorite spyderco lock. Its perception of strength is high, its 'cool' factor is high, the issue i have with it is difficulty closing one handed (those who use a manix likely know the 'last three fingers on the clip' closing grip :)) compared to the axis lock. Its minor in the greater scheme of things, but when im tired and dont want to have to worry about any discomfort during my day, ill reach for my axis lock.
I suppose all this to say that theres more at stake for me with a locking mechanism than its official duty.

I carry my Manix 2 clipless...so I can't do the 3 finger clip trick. But just butting it up into my palm seems to work very well. After nearly a year of use the CBBL is very very smooth and easy to operate...

[Cheddarnut]

I carry my Manix 2 clipless...so I can't do the 3 finger clip trick. But just butting it up into my palm seems to work very well. After nearly a year of use the CBBL is very very smooth and easy to operate...

And the sound of the ball locking is the satisfaction equivalent of the duracell battery closing sound. No, better. Better.

[Fifteen54]

Personally I go for simplicity and reliability. Fortunately for me those two things always seem to go hand in hand. So I can say that I prefer a good strong liner lock. They allow for wear, easy to actuate, not much to go wrong and if done properly can be very strong. Emerson does very well in the liner lock department, nice and heavy. I am not a fan of their fit and finish, especially for how much I pay for them but you can't win all of your fights I suppose. The compression lock is a great design as well. In fact I would like to see it implemented on more knives. Similar to the liner lock it allows for self adjustment and is simple. Really though, I think it is all about execution as far as locks are concerned. Like on the Military, I love the knife and it is tight as a bullfrog's butthole. Yet every time I always think to myself that I would trust it more if it was a couple thousandths thicker... This is all personal opinion but I stand firm, simplicity and reliability.

[gnlw]

I think that reliability is the most important factor, followed closely by strength. I want to know that the lock is going to hold the blade open under all foreseen "anticipated use" circumstances. For example, the lock on something like the Police or Military should withstand heavy cutting chores, as well as the forces put on the lock if it is used as a last ditch weapon.

[Fifteen54]

Yes! I often wonder how strong the lock on the police is. I am sure it is good but I do wonder what a police with a compression lock would be like....

[Donut]

1. Lockbacks - Need to unlock and close in two different motions unless you get dangerous.

A. rear (eg: Buck 110) - I think the Buck 110 is the only knife I've ever used with this lock. The lock works, but does not offer good protection against unlocking at all angles of cutting. Can offer low pressure unlocking at the cost of a larger travel.

B. mid (eg: Native) - Works good with a small area for pressure or a boye dent. Somewhat more difficult to release or requires more extreme tolerance on the spring.

C. front (eg: early Al Mars, Spyderco Rescue) - I don't have much experience, eager to try the new Sage.

2. Linerlock - Requires putting fingers in the path of the blade when the blade can swing closed. It seems somewhat dangerous because a slip can put yourself against the edge. Almost too easy to operate.

3. Rolling Lock - No experience.

4. Axis Lock - Seems like a stabilized Ball Bearing Lock. I think there is more than one type of Axis lock. It seems to work well, is rated highly, and tests I've seen have been unable to defeat the lock.

5. Ultra Lock - No experience.

6. Arc Lock - Seems like a weaker Axis lock. Not produced to the tolerance it needs.

7. Frame Lock (Chris Reeve style integral linerlock) - Works okay, the cutout on the lockbar compromises some strength. Additional strength when you are grabbing the knife tight, which is when you need additional strength. There is a VERY wide range of quality on this lock across all manufacturers. This lock is more difficult to operate because it depends on the user to be familiar with the lock.

8. Compression Lock - Seems strong. Varying quality on the lock bar tension and finishes causing the friction to make it release.

9. Balisong Lock - It works as long as you hold it, but there is some wobble.

3. We recently broke some of our competitors knives that are promoted as being "tough", "hard" reliable "do anything" pieces. most tested "medium duty" lock strength by our in-house standards (50 - 99 inch/lbs per inch of blade length).

How much strength do we really need? I'm okay with getting stronger as long as more real estate isn't needed to house it.

[Bradley]

For me Reliability, and ease of actuating are the two biggest factors I consider.

Like the comp lock, liner lock, and maybe frame lock.

[jackknifeh]

This has definately turned into a long term research project. :)

Jack