Best Clipit for untrained Self Defense?

[Knife Knut]

I realize Gunting is designed specifically for the task, however, I am rather small of stature. At 5'6"/155# and as yet without any training, I subscribe to the longish blade school of thought; not only for the reach, but for the intimidation factor which may preclude actually having to use it. Reading over what I have just written, I sound like some pre-teen hooligan, which at 22 I am not. I believe in use of force as a last resort, but also realize that should negotiation fail, or that unprovoked attacks cannot be _totally_ prevented. I would like to be able to effectively assert my rights in such a situation. I am leaning towards the Police or Military Models, but have yet been able to handle either. My current daily carry is the old style endura with the composite clip at the rear.



Also, I broke half the tip off my delica a ways back -yes, I was prying w/ it-, and busted the tips of two teeth off of the tip of my Endura (forget how) and have been unable to pull off enough steel w/ my sharpmaker. How much would it run to get these reground(see signature) I was thinking a tanto tip might be interesting on the Delica.



By the way, I am at the opposite end from the Display case end of the collecting spectrum; my meager collection is just the two abused knives above mentioned, The current serrated model of the Fairbairn-Skyes From Boker, and a few under $20 pocket changers. When I can find a good price on it I want to get the Hibben Short Sword "Hornet" w/ the Chromed crossgards for home defense.



Knife Knut on a shoestring budget.

[thorin hammer]

Even though it they are very expensive the Spyderco Civilian or Matriarch would have the size and intimidation factor you want, both are made for backup carry for undercover law enforcemant who are untrained in self defense. I know that if I saw someone pull one of those out I would run like the wind it the opposite direction.

[knifenerd]

Yes. The Civilian is IMHO hands down the best for untrained self defense.

Using a "regular" knife for self defense requires martial arts type training. Most folks will not get the extensive training and practice required to be proficient.

With the Civie, it doesn't take much imagination to figure out how to use it.

Dick AKTI #A001365

[ronin203]

I would have to go with the civilian and matriarch also. If you have no defensive edged weopons training these two knives could be used very well in a situation where you can't run away.

[TonieN]

I carry both the Military (strong side)and the Civilian(off side). I like the combination of a hook and a straight blade.

If you feel comfortable enough to use a traditional blade style, go with the Military. It will give you the best bang for your buck between the two when it comes to cutting(slashing)and thrusting(stabbing). It also has tremendous utilitarian usage.

But if you want something you can just paw, slap, scratch and slash with, basically a giant claw, go with the Civilian.

If the Military and the Civilian are more money than you want to spend, or are too big, go with the Endura and/or Matriarch. They're smaller, less expensive but fulfill the same functions. The Endura and Matriarch are my standard at home carry in my around the house shorts.

Or if you want to go even smaller, get a Delica and/or Merlin. Again same function.

Then get some training! Learn how to use your knife safely. Check out the laws in your jurisdictions, city, county and state regarding knives, carrying them, and the use of lethal force, so you can carry and use legally and responsibly.

All you need is love, a sharp blade and a full clip

[BRAM]

first of all you got great answers from the forumites!!!
gee you guys make being a moderator really simple!
the best knife is the one you feel comfortable with and that you will carry..
Knives are personal..they feel right to each of us..and not the same ones feel right to all people..

so the best Clipit is the one you carry with you..

Try a few..
carry them, play with them..fondle them..
see what calls out to you..
have a great day..

by the way what has your size got to do with the Gunting? My daughter is 4'10"...she carries a Gunting...

[Mancer]

Yip Im definately with the other guys on this one, go for the Civie or Matriarch.
I own 2 Matriarch's and 1 G10 Civilian, the Civie in my opinion has more scare value due to the larger size and the longer hook, it also gives a tad more reach.
The Matriarch though is far lighter and the tip feels stronger, and due to the "tip-up" carry I find it quicker to draw than the bigger Civie.

They both beutiful blades, and would scare the sssshhhh...... outta anyone wanting to due you any harm, If you got the spare cash for the Civie it may be the one to go for (since I reckon its got more scare value) but dont put the Matriarch down, I carry mine everyday, shes sharp and quick, and will do the job if ever called on.

Im awaiting my Gunting at present but wil not carry it until Im confident in using it, until that time my matriarch will be by my side.

Hope this helps, if you have any questions on either model you more than welcome to email me.

seeya

MaNcEr

It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

[Sword and Shield]

As far as instinctual self-defense goes, try out a wide range of knives and carry what appeals to you. Practice with it, and make sure that the instincts of how to use it in a confrontation are solidly in your mind.

Remember, however. All knives are useless in a confrontation if you do not have them to use. Make sure to carry your chosen knife, and leave yourself a way to access it quickly.


Keepin' it real...real sharp, that is.

[Paul Rouleau]

The Civilian and Matriarch are two of my favorite carry knives.Special training is required to take full advantage of their designs.The push dagger is the most simple knife for the untrained.Everyone knows how to throw a punch and with sharp steel in your hand it doesn't need to be a hard hit to be effective.Unfortunately,there are few quality push daggers being manufactured and they are illegal in many places.One folder that fits the bill is the Shabaria.It's unique handle works well in normal knife grips but also allows it to be gripped like a push dagger.Of course,the best thing to do is get some kind of training in defensive blade use.There are many good sources available and it does not require a long term committment to become proficient in basic knife skills.

[Rory Quinn]

Hello...

Just my opinion, but if you're prepared to spend more than $100 on a knife for self defence, and take on the responsibility of carrying it- then shouldn't getting appropriate training be the most important thing, above and beyond which model of clipit you select?

Also I would also hazard a suggestion that a Civilian or a Matriarch isn't a 'silver bullet' that will make up for lack of training/preparation. No matter how specialised their design is, they won't outperform a POS knife in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing.

(editted for terminally bad spelling and grammar)

Edited by - Rory Quinn on 7/15/2001 3:06:36 PM

[Mancer]

Rory, I very much agree that there is no silver bullets for that matter when it comes to blades, nor do I believe there ever will be, but (this is my opinion) if a normal straight blade or dagger is compared to a hawbill, I find that slashing is a fairly instinctive action with long sharp objects, I may be wrong but when holding a knife for me it feels more natural to make slashes than stabs, this is the reason I say the hawkbills are more suited for the untrained, it is a wonderful design with everthing is the right place, the tip is so thin and sharp that the smallest nick from a slash will give you a mean, and painful cut, and for closer range you have those teeth, no person would want those sunk in his a$$,lol

Training is a must yes, I agree with that completely, but when comapered to say a Gunting, its no use carring such a specialised blade, the Civ/Mat will give you a far greater defensive edge compared to such a knife unless you know how to use it.

Seeya Guys

MaNcEr

P.S Im hoping to purchase the Civie tapes soon.

It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

[crecy]

I would not clasify the Gunting as a "specialized" blade. It can do special things, but it requires no more special skills to employ as a simple edged weapon then any other knife. As a bonus it is more positeve to open one handed then about anything I have handled; just thumb open the ramp (gross motor skill). As far as the Civilian or Matriarch giving the neophyte a FAR greater defensive edge; I'm dubious.

One thing to remember about the reverse curved blade, it cuts by piercing and then ripping out or through. It does not glide and slice like curved or straight edged blades. It does indeed make a nasty cut and is very effective, but the way it cuts tends to hang it in the material (cloth, flesh) being cut. This requires keeping a damn good grip on it, something to be aware of.

I have nothing against this blade type; every form has a function. I just wanted to keep the record straight.

Greg R. Beeman Si Vis Pacern Parabellum Semper Ubi Sub Ubi

[frank olesen]

Truth shines through training. Good posts Greg and Rory. To All of you out there who think that this knife or that knife is better for "untrained" defense, all you are doing is perpetuating that myth. It matters not what you have in your hand when you need the knife, but how skillful you are when using it. It would not matter if you had a MAT or police or a full on sabre, if one is untrained and had to face someone like Bram or JAK or Worden or Inosanto or Tarani or any one of a multitude of people both known and unknown who will turn you into sushi if you do not know what you are doing. Just because one owns an axe, a lumberjack one is not. The gunting simply is a TOOL that gives you a wider array of OPTIONS other than just to cut the moron that just assaulted you.
That is the CRUX of the matter. Untrained defense is an oxymoron. Empty hand, stick, asp baton, knife, whatever. I submit this respectfully, and in light of experience through training, For which I have to thank Bram.

Frank

[frank olesen]

My ferret Cubby types for me and always double posts.

Edited by - Frank Olesen on 8/2/2001 11:00:05 AM

[argyll]

"if one is untrained and had to face someone like Bram or JAK or Worden or Inosanto or Tarani or any one of a multitude of people both known and unknown who will turn you into sushi if you do not know what you are doing"

True, the thing I learned in various martial arts classes is that most other people in attendance could kick my butt. That said, it's a little unfair to suggest that most BG have the skills of the illustrious individuals named above. Besides, no amount of training would make me the equal of those masters in a hand-to-hand encounter. In my mind the purpose of a weapon is to give one an edge over one's attacker (oh those puns can hurt too), the more training the better, but anything is better than nothing.

Best regards,
Argyll

Wha's like us? Damn few and they're a' deid!



Edited by - Argyll on 8/2/2001 2:58:38 PM

[Rory Quinn]

While it's probably astronomically unlikely that a hypothetical attacker is going to be even half as competent as someone like Danny Inosanto, I think murphy's law dictates that you prepare for the worst possible scenario.

In my opinion preparation beings with training and mind-set, with model of knife selected for carry coming somewhere way way down the scale of importance. For example: if you were going to hunt a bear in 6 months, but had never fired a gun, would the most important first thing you did be to choose your longarm (model, chambering etc) or would you head down to the rifle-range / learn to hunt from an experienced hunter?

I would worry that someone without proper training would present the knife at the wrong time, maybe fumble the presentation due to unfamilliarity with the mental pressures of conflict and last and worst not be able to retain the knife when faced with experienced attackers.

Just thinking aloud here- I'm aware that there are people posting here with a lot more experience that I will ever have- how about some more opinions, guys?

Edited by - Rory Quinn on 8/2/2001 5:38:23 PM

[BRAM]

I think we got sidetracked from Knife Knuts original request of best Clipit for untrained self-defense..ROFL..

Just so you guys know..I personally carried many Spydercos ...

I still love my Delica..& my Endura,,great knives to carry for EDC usage, light, tough, easy to open...VERY VERY SHARP! and of course they can cut in any situation..

My Calypso Jr is a favorite,,yup the Mircarta Handle with that very cool Sal Glesser flat ground blade..As Frank says the edge goes from here to infinity....

Tim Wegners knife is very ergonomic to use..

I carried a Pro Grip faithfully while I was a Body Guard..good blade, great handle..easy to use..

Of course I always carry a Cricket and a Navigator..they were called Experimentals in my early days and I made all my students carry them..GREAT KNIVES!!!

Of course I have several of those early very neat Bob Terzuola Spyderco knives...
Boy did I like carrying them..The new Terzuola Starmate is pretty good to carry..
hmm its in my hand right now...

Go to a place wher you can fondle a few different SPyderco's and the ones that say "YES..hold me.. I like being in your hand"..well thats the one to carry!

It takes no skill to use an edged tool to cut something or someone..The Skill lies in not getting cut and countering an attack..

have a great day!!!

[Knife Knut]

Well, a year later, and many more knives, my EDC is Police for utility, but kept sharp, on strong side, with Civilian or Ayoob on left side.

Knife Knut on a shoestring budget.

[Knife Knut]

Bleeding software!

Edited by - Knife Knut on 8/2/2002 12:39:44 AM

[Knife Knut]

AARRRRRGGHHHH

(matey <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>)

Edited by - Knife Knut on 9/2/2002 7:45:21 PM

[Rex G]

Two knives, one on each side, is good. Make sure everything you carry is an old and familiar friend to your hands. Remain alert, to minimize the risk of being surprised. (Jeff Cooper's color code, &quot;Condition Yellow&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> The fight can be over quicker than you could ever imagine. The intimidation factor of the blade is not nearly as important as your overall demeanor. Try to get some training, from people who can &quot;walk the talk....&quot;

[Rex G]

The smiley was not intentional, should have been a closing parenthese.

[glockman99]

I like my Spydie (Massad) serrated Ayoob just about the best, as simply by looking at it, it would make an attacker pause to wonder; &quot;What the hell is it, and why is it bent?&quot;...And that would give me the chance to run like hell!

Dann Fassnacht Aberdeen, WA glockman99@hotmail.com ICQ: 53675663

[liko]

The Gunting does require some practice; however, it's nothing that can't be learned. You might want to look out for MBC classes in your area.

Anyway, moving on to the knives for less training/cost:

The Civilian and Matriarch were designed specifically for people with no training in knife fighting. It's designed to look intimidating and to slash. Grab hold of an arm and pull the knife across it, and you've done some serious damage.

Beyond that, for a smaller, less expensive knife that still looks intimidating and does the job, look at the Native CE. It's light, carries in your pocket easily, flicks open, holds well in forward or reverse grip, and the CE version both looks dangerous and is, even in untrained hands.

[drbones666]

Rory Quinn
&quot;In my opinion preparation beings with training and mind-set, with model of knife selected for carry coming somewhere way way down the scale of importance.&quot;

Amen bro,
It was 20 years ago when 2 guys jumped my girlfriend and I; they had knives, I didn't. I'm no expert but it was the time I spent in the dojo that kept my head on me and saved my life. I punch, I kicked and I used my TEETH (thank you Lee Siew Lung) and I lived. I freeked and had nightmares later when I could afford to panic. Note: Those of us who wear glasses should always train with glasses off.

I now follow the general sentaments heard here, I carry what called my name on my right (Chinook) and something easy to open and bloody damn sharp on my left (CS Recon 2 Tanto).

Here is wishing us all a life time of peace.



From Your Kind and Humble Narrator, DrBones666

[Can]

I like the endura with the synthetic grip, it's light and totally functional for self-defense. For home dont buy a Hornet, buy a shotgun, light sledge-hammer, or a chainsaw; price is also something to think about, the Hornet is a shelf piece and priced accordingly.

[Can]

Wow, I thought I gave a lot of thought to self defense but some of you really have thought ahead, I think I will just step past all of you and carry a concealed gun. =)

by the way what happens if you are stopped by the police and they find you with a knife in each pocket. I am sure there is the transportation gap in the law, but what did you have planned to say?

[Rex G]

If I only have one knife, it's usually because I have two revolvers, concealed. Smile!

[Blade Santa Cruz]

Explaining two knives is no problem. One, a Kiwi, is for delicate little jobs. The Cuda Maxx, on the other hand, is for heavy work! Can't imagine using the Cuda Maxx to remove spolinters, nor the Kiwi for cutting down a pile of boxes.

[Knife Knut]

I forgot to say that I got a 20 inch Criswell Wakizashi at the 2002 Blade Show.
It was fun to meet the maker of by blade.
Very well balanced sword.
Pictures at:
http://www.swordsandknives.homestead.com


Knife Knut on a shoestring budget.

[Mecki-Messer]

Little question:

Don&#180;t you think that getting better armed forces the &quot;bad guys&quot; to be even better armed too, hence an armsrace will start?

I was just curious, because German (fire)weapons laws are amongst the strictest in the world. But as nearly no private person has a gun, almost no burglar brings a gun for his job, hence very few people get shot in Germany.

I know in the USA it&#180;s different (strong NRA and so on), but isn&#180;t it worth thinking about?

Where you go, there you are!

[Blade Santa Cruz]

That mistake was made in England where they once prided themselves that their &quot;Bobbies&quot; could do the job without firearms. However, eventually the &quot;bad guys&quot; realized the advantage that firearms gave them and things changed.

Experience has shown that time after time, when individual states have instituted &quot;concealed carry&quot; laws and allowed their citizens to arm themselves as they see fit, violent crime has dropped dramatically.

That's reality speaking, not theory. Isn't that worth thinking about?

[Rex G]

Most burglars in this area are unarmed; if anything they go first to the kitchen and borrow one of their victim's kitchen knives. Robbers, which we call &quot;hijackers&quot; around here, do tend to use weapons, as do rapists, but they select unarmed victims.

[BRAM]

A year later and we still get sidetracked..ROFL..
The best CLIPIT to carry is the one you have in your pocket or hand...
and yes..if one bans all selfdefense tools on the premise that it makes life safer..the only ones obeying a dumb rule-law like that are the law abiding civilians for the bad guys always carry tools..from blunt, to sharp to projectile...

see ya..
Carry those Clipits

[Michael Janich]

In my opinion, the BEST clipit for untrained self-defense is the one that prompts you to go out and actually do some training.

The usefulness of any tool lies in the skill of the operator.

Stay safe,

mike j