What's up in France?????

[BlackNinja]

I woke up to read this today;

PARIS - Rioting by French youths spread to 300 towns overnight, and a 61-year-old man hurt in the violence died of his wounds, the first fatality in 11 days of unrest that has shocked the country, police said Monday. As urban unrest spread to neighboring Belgium and possibly Germany, the French government faced growing criticism for its inability to stop the violence, despite massive police deployment and continued calls for calm.

Being in the US and having a bias news outlet, can the fellow Europeans help me out to as what is going on! :confused:
Joe

[WOTANSON1]

You can check out Sky news in England. They have pretty good sources, It is amazing how much info you don't get in the US. Little to no news on the Birmingham riots, little to no news on the Paris riots, which look like are spilling over into Belgium and other countries. Ah the glory of multiculturalism :rolleyes: .

Cheers,
Rob

[JohnM]

I woke up to read this today;

can the fellow Europeans help me out to as what is going on! :confused:
Joe

I can't put it nicely, so I'll just put it bluntly :
juvenile Muslem immigrants don't like the French and the French don't like them.
This is the case in most European countries where there is a significant group of Muslem immigrants.

[Jim Malone]

During the 50's and 60's many European country's imported foreigners from North Africa to work in the cole mines and steel factory's.
The foreigners never got any support and no one tried to integrate them into the European community's.
Most foreigners also explicitly expressed the feeling that they wanted to return to their homeland after the work was done.

Missions where set out to Northern Africa and Africa to offer these foreign contractors a job in Europe.

Because most of the laborers where from empovered regions in North Africa and Africa they were iliterate and had difficulty speaking the language of their new "country".

In the 70's and 80's the family reunions where introduced, and large crowds of relatives flooded Europe.

With them came the increasing flow of illegal immigrants who thought Europe was the land of milk and honey.

In the mid 80's and 90's tension rose between the Europeans and their "temporary laborers", there was an economic crisis, and the temporary laborers seem to stay.

The children of these immigrants had language problems (their parents couldn't read or write) and they ended up in the lower part of the educational system.

Because unemployment rose the fathers of these immigrants became unemployed and started to collect unemployment and social security benefits.

This had the effect that these families ended up on the lowest socio-economic class.

The youngsters grew up in the ghetto's next to large cities without any chance of them to outgrow their situation.

They where considered foreigners in Europe and also in their homeland!
They didn't wan't to go back to Africa and they weren't accepted by the general public because during the economic crisis they "took" the jobs of the Europeans.

This lead them into the rascism trap. The immigrants take every setback they face as due to "rascism".

low grades in school= rascism
a parking ticket= rascism
unemployement= rascism

Because they faced rascism or thought they faced rascism (they didn't have to face the consequences of their behaviour because everything was the fault of the rascists) they became social outcasts.

Trying to make a living some of them engaged in criminal activities, leading to the fact that in some cities 80% of the street crime and drug trafficing was commited by immigrant youths.

The whole problem of of the economic decline, the poor education and the fact that visible crime was attributed to immigrant youth drove a deep gap between the immigrants and the population.

The ghetto's became safehavens for criminal activities and the police where forced out of these ghetto's. Whenever the polce want to do their work they are faced with large crowd's of young immigrants who attack them to drive the police out of the ghetto.

The local governement shortsighted decided to keep the police out of the ghetto's because they didn't wan't civil unrest.

Next to the high crime rate, poverty and rascism they where confronted by Islamic extremists who preached to these kid's the concept of an extreme islamic religion.

Because they found their roots in Islam a lot of these kids are drawn to extreme Islamic ideas.

This further widens the gap between the average French citizen and the immigrants.

Now the French, Belgium, German, Spanish governements are faced with these ghetto's where civil unrest is ready to errupt, due to the frustration of these young immigrants.

The average citizen is fed up with their anti social behaviour and turns to extreme right wing political groups in the hope that they will bring an answer.

The answer imho will always be a tough one, either you give away your country to Islamic extremists, or you forcible remove them from your soil.

None of these options are considered an option so the governement closes his eyes and continues to look away.

[WORKER#9]

During the 50's and 60's many European country's imported foreigners from North Africa to work in the cole mines and steel factory's.
The foreigners never got any support and no one tried to integrate them into the European community's.
Most foreigners also explicitly expressed the feeling that they wanted to return to their homeland after the work was done.

Missions where set out to Northern Africa and Africa to offer these foreign contractors a job in Europe.

Because most of the laborers where from empovered regions in North Africa and Africa they were iliterate and had difficulty speaking the language of their new "country".

In the 70's and 80's the family reunions where introduced, and large crowds of relatives flooded Europe.

With them came the increasing flow of illegal immigrants who thought Europe was the land of milk and honey.

In the mid 80's and 90's tension rose between the Europeans and their "temporary laborers", there was an economic crisis, and the temporary laborers seem to stay.

The children of these immigrants had language problems (their parents couldn't read or write) and they ended up in the lower part of the educational system.

Because unemployment rose the fathers of these immigrants became unemployed and started to collect unemployment and social security benefits.

This had the effect that these families ended up on the lowest socio-economic class.

The youngsters grew up in the ghetto's next to large cities without any chance of them to outgrow their situation.

They where considered foreigners in Europe and also in their homeland!
They didn't wan't to go back to Africa and they weren't accepted by the general public because during the economic crisis they "took" the jobs of the Europeans.

This lead them into the rascism trap. The immigrants take every setback they face as due to "rascism".

low grades in school= rascism
a parking ticket= rascism
unemployement= rascism

Because they faced rascism or thought they faced rascism (they didn't have to face the consequences of their behaviour because everything was the fault of the rascists) they became social outcasts.

Trying to make a living some of them engaged in criminal activities, leading to the fact that in some cities 80% of the street crime and drug trafficing was commited by immigrant youths.

The whole problem of of the economic decline, the poor education and the fact that visible crime was attributed to immigrant youth drove a deep gap between the immigrants and the population.

The ghetto's became safehavens for criminal activities and the police where forced out of these ghetto's. Whenever the polce want to do their work they are faced with large crowd's of young immigrants who attack them to drive the police out of the ghetto.

The local governement shortsighted decided to keep the police out of the ghetto's because they didn't wan't civil unrest.

Next to the high crime rate, poverty and rascism they where confronted by Islamic extremists who preached to these kid's the concept of an extreme islamic religion.

Because they found their roots in Islam a lot of these kids are drawn to extreme Islamic ideas.

This further widens the gap between the average French citizen and the immigrants.

Now the French, Belgium, German, Spanish governements are faced with these ghetto's where civil unrest is ready to errupt, due to the frustration of these young immigrants.

The average citizen is fed up with their anti social behaviour and turns to extreme right wing political groups in the hope that they will bring an answer.

The answer imho will always be a tough one, either you give away your country to Islamic extremists, or you forcible remove them from your soil.

None of these options are considered an option so the governement closes his eyes and continues to look away.

Sounds like Los Angeles, only Different Immigrants! Excellent explanation.

[WORKER#9]

If this continues, they better nip it in the bud now. Start shooting people on site, for curfew violations. No joke, this shows the governments not in control and empowers the rioters. It is a scary situation.

[Jurphaas]

Hi all - Jim's explanation sums it up pretty well. While the desperate situation in these ghettos has been going on for so long and no real govenment action has ever taken place trying to improve the standards of living for these "New" French citizens, things are now escalating so rapidly.

There is no easy sollution. Military and Police force and shooting will not help. It will only help to escalate more and to stir up the confrontations. The Government has over years denied this problem as there was no gain in votes or otherwise. Just ignore and it will go away has been their policy....... yeah..... some fine politicians!

Jurphaas.

[mikewww]

Hello Jur, how are things ? No ATR as yet !

Many violent things boil down below, and it takes a spark to start things. The First World War was ignited with a gunshot in Sarajevo. The Paris riots started when the police pursued two youths. The youths tried to hide in an electrical sub-station, and were both electrocuted. An accident, but enough to spark a social uprising. I hope it is quelled soon.

Mike

[Jim Malone]

And suddenly they are suprissed by the "Hofstad groep".
Did you know that about 25 to 30 terrorist attacks have been twarted by the different law enforcement agencies in Europe? "Only" 3 succeeded, but one day another attack will slip thrue the net and will again be faced with terrorism.
In Belgium they dismantled terror cells with connection to the GICM
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/gicm.htm
This is the group that has done the Madrid bombing.

They also dismantled an Al Qaida group that was planning attacks on a nuclear facility plant, a military base that has nuclear weapons and attacks in other West European countries.

They also found an Al Qaida network with links to The Netherlands, France, Spain and Marocco.

All these terrorcells are intertwined with each other and are funded by "unknown" sources.
They all recruit their martyrs from the same Muslim youth that is currently causing the unrest in Western Europe.

If you look at the media reports you will hear them scream Takbeer

[Senate]

Nothing to add to Jim's first post, excellent summary.

Honestly we have this kind of riots in the suburbs every once in a while but this time the national then international media gave it so much attention that the rioters found a new way of communication.
Honestly, I really don't know how its gonna end (with deads that's for sure) but a warm november without rain doesn't help... we'll see who's still standing when the icy rains come.

I'm updating my EDC knives to Defcon 2... ;)

[WORKER#9]

Hi all - Jim's explanation sums it up pretty well. While the desperate situation in these ghettos has been going on for so long and no real govenment action has ever taken place trying to improve the standards of living for these "New" French citizens, things are now escalating so rapidly.

There is no easy sollution. Military and Police force and shooting will not help. It will only help to escalate more and to stir up the confrontations. The Government has over years denied this problem as there was no gain in votes or otherwise. Just ignore and it will go away has been their policy....... yeah..... some fine politicians!

Jurphaas.

Maybe your right, maybe military force wont work. I draw from my experiences here in California and the LA riots that left 50 dead 100,s severly wounded and billions in property damage. The riots started and were fairly isolated, and the police withdrew and then all but disapeared. So with no show of force from the government the riots grew and spread for three days. The city of LA burnt. Finally the national gaurd showed up but had no ammo for there weapons and had to break into gun shops for it. While are National Gaurd struggled to find ammo the riots continued on. Finally the Police and Military Regrouped and Retook the city by force. The threat of being shot and killed, in the end quelled the riots. France is not my country and I wish her well. France has a history of insurection. The poor rise again! well...... Let them eat cake!

Worker

[skcusloa]

The reason France is having this problem is due to socialism, pure and simple. Their citizens apparently expect the government to provide for them. And when it doesn't, they turn ugly. This is the natural result of socialism.

You know... this is one of the long-dreaded "nightmare scenarios" for Europe. Mass invasion by Africans and Middle Easterners (predominantly Muslim), followed by violent dissent and hostile takeover. When you get right down to it, this is exactly what Hitler was afraid of. Some other ethnic group gaining enough numbers in "his" country to upset the balance. Looks like it's finally happening for real. This is a HUGE problem not only in France but also in Germany. They are almost overrun by Middle-Eastern Muslims (mostly Turks) who are very quickly becoming a force to reckon with. The culture differences being what they are, it's setting the stage for an all-out civil war that could spread across Europe.

Scary, huh? And ironic too. For all the wars they've had in Europe, even their latest and greatest policies for peaceful living are causing more tension. Europe has swung from rampant racism in the 1930's to rampant political correctness in the 1990's, and is now quickly shifting back due to an unhealthy "tolerance" for certain ethnic groups that won't respond in kind with "tolerance" of their own. In other words, France is suffering now from their own stupidity in giving in to political correctness, liberalism, and socialism. And I fear this is just the tip of the iceberg.

This is precisely why immigration policies need to be closely measured. Regardless of good intentions, it is dangerous to open one's borders to allow a massive influx of people from one single culture/ethnicity. That group will seize control eventually, or at least change the balance. For a nation's own stability, borders are important, and must be protected with a reasonable immigration policy.
1952Sniper

I took this from another board, but it's exactly how I feel about the situation.

[Zwaplat]

Well, it's getting pretty bad in France, it's not confined to one city.
I don't know how much there is happening in Belgium, but if anything happens here in Gent, I'll let you know. Or you will know something happened because I'm not active anymore :rolleyes: .

Edit: just been reading the newspapers a bit. 1300 (and counting) burned out cars in France, hundreds of arrestations, 2300 extra police officers are put to work, they recently found a workshop where there were 150 molotov cocktails,...
In Brussels, five cars burned out. Not much more happening atm.

Edit 2: just read that quote in the post above mine. That's what extreme right people say (racists, in other words). It sounds true, but it isn't completely so.
And I'm also afraid the army will be called in to get everything back to normal again. The riots seem to be organized.

[dialex]

Reading this thread made me remember a SF novel I read a few years ago, when Europe was "liberated" by arabs and the christians had to wear a cross sewn on the clothes (like the infamous David's star during WWII), with the correspondent consequences :( Scarry, humm?
I'm afraid a 4th generation warfare is closer than we like to admit. :(

[BlackNinja]

Thanks for the responses guy's. As myself and Rob (Thank you for the news link) pointed out, our media outlet, IMO, only tells us what we want to hear. Most don't even come close to telling us the whole truth! Jim, what a great post, Thank you. I plan on having my wife read it so she can see that I am talking to well educated people on this Forum, not just :spyder: nuts. It soumds like basically the same crap thats going on over there is the same as times we have had in the US! It's nice to hear from John, Dialex and Zwaplat as well as others who are there and know whats going on. I hope things get better, and not worse. God Bless everybody!!!

Joe

[Jim Malone]

i have the same feeling. We are bombarded by anti Bush propaganda in our media, but when you talk with the guy in the street they all support the crackdown on terrorist organisations.

Same applies to you, not all Europeans are anti-American or oppose the war on terror.

This is one of the good things about internet, everyone can give there own opinion and most of the time these opinions are not clouded by any political agenda or filtered information.

We have the freedom to have access to people and ask them their own vieuw on things, without a journalist or politician deciding what i have to hear or believe

[skcusloa]

Edit 2: just read that quote in the post above mine. That's what extreme right people say (racists, in other words). It sounds true, but it isn't completely so.
And I'm also afraid the army will be called in to get everything back to normal again. The riots seem to be organized.

How is it false?

How is it rascist?

I don't think the army is going to stop it without killing hundreds of people. If they do that, it's only going to make more riots happen.

I pray for the people in France, but I don't look down on these people for rioting. At least they have the cajones to do something about their situation.

[zenheretic]

Since I work long hours at night, I'm rather out of touch with "the world" but I saw a very long report on the French riots on an American cable news network. I was amazed at the incredible lack of facts. I watched at least 5 minutes of reporting (pretty long report by cable news standards) and I had no idea who was rioting or why. I was getting around to asking this very same question tonight. Thanks for all the info guys.

The delicacy of the "civilized" world is much more fragile than many realize. The aftermath of New Orleans Hurricane illustrate this point very well. Looting, raping, murder all running rampant in a matter of days.

Stay safe my spyder brothers! If you don't have emergency food/water, a bugout bag, an escape route planned etc now is the time to consider such matters. Wish I could tell you to buy a gun...pity your governments don't allow that very easily... :(

[Zwaplat]

Got some more news. This night 1173 cars were burned, a police station and a hospital were attacked, and 1500 reservists are going to be put at service. The army stays where it is now, at the bases, especially since the violence seems to be diminishing. Good thing.

skcusloa, when the racist party in Flanders (Vlaams Belang) wants to say something racist without being prosecuted, they'll say it the way that stuff was typed. Political correctness 'n ****. And why false ? Because it doesn't tell the whole truth, that's why.

[CopilotATS-55]

life as we know it has hit the fan time to get the kevlar and potassium iodide pills(will only save your thyroids gents :eek: )

[Zwaplat]

Just got the latest news on IRC. This evening, two cars got burned here in Ghent. Far enough away from me, I didn't notice anything. But it's still a lot closer than Paris or Brussels.

[Civilian]

Well one thing is for sure you EU spydernuts keep your head down when you need to. Good Luck and stay safe!

[butch]

can we get a daly update sort of thing as i dont get to watch much TV nor belive most of what is said
besides i can belive that the info will be more accurate comming from forum members
thanks
butch

[Zwaplat]

Violence is getting less worse, especially in Paris. Emergency state has been declared, police gets some special rights. Curfew in some areas.

[Piet.S]

How is it false?

How is it rascist

The remark about Hitler is total crap.

[antoine]

Hi,

Here is a map of events with an historic... for those who speak best frensh than I speak english :p !!!

http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/flashafp/FrViolencesFR0911/index.html

Antoine.

[Civilian]

Didn't they reciently try to outlaw Spyderco's in france? :D
Well that explains it then. ;)