SD against a dog?

[catamount]

There's plenty of talk about defense against 2 legged predators, but what about dogs? In my case, I think that might be a more likely scenario.

For those with knowledge and experience in SD and MBC:

Which :spyder: (s) would you want to have if attacked by a dog?

How would you use it?

How is defending yourself against a dog (or other vicious animal) different from facing a human attacker?

[Zwaplat]

The problem with dogs is that they are not scared of knives.
Also, it's difficult to take out an enraged animal if you don't hit it in the right spot (artery, spine).
I'd rather try to pry apart it front paws so it can't breathe anymore. It seems this is the most effective way to stop a dog from attacking you.

[224477]

Dear catamount,

dogs are IMO cute animals:)

Use a Glock, 10mm AUTO, hollow tipped bullets, shoot fast :)

Now really, I dont think that a normal guy can kill a dog. He wont have time to do that. Imagine the pressure of the bite, the pain, shock.. Angry dog is much more faster than a man. I am talking about those "warrior-dogs" like pittbull or stafford.
These dogs do not feel pain in some kind of way, they got it blocked in their brains. The only way is to shoot them, IMO. Or you have to cut his head off.

Better be friendly with dogs, playing frisbee :)

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: For dogs pepper spray is most effective. As far as knives go I'd want something serrated :spyder:

[Rob]

For dogs pepper spray is most effective.

That's what I've heard too. Has anyone here any experiance with OC and an angry/attacking dog? I'd be really interested if and how well that works in real life.

Cheers, Rob

[MacTech]

Pepper spray also is the most humane option, the effects are temporary, giving you enough time to escape

but if we were talking an attack that had to come down to man V. Dog close range, you'd be hard pressed to make *any* folder work, a stout fixed blade would be needed, like the Ka-Bar, or some of the Buck fixed blade hunters (i'm a newbie to Spydie, so forgive me for bringing up competitors products on your forum, but i don't know if Spyderco makes a stout fixed-blade hunting knife)

then you have the problem of sheeple overreacting to you carrying a hunting knife, thinking you "must be out to make trouble" or something....

[flipe8]

The good thing about animals is that they can be intiminated by aggressive posturing(sometimes, anyways). If your dealing with a trained dog, that probably wouldn't work, though. I have heard to give them a target, like your arm if they charging and they will likely take it. It keeps them away from your face,neck , and upper torso.Now maybe that only works for trained dogs that go for the padded arm, I'm not sure.Hopefully, someone with some schutzhund experience will be able to answer this question.

[swissknife]

i would opt for the pepperspray..

myself i have a dobermann-rottweiler, cute girl, really lovely, but i would not want to fight her or some kind of similar dog.

in military we had some pretty nice ones. i remember a rottweiler pulling out an officer from his jeep, the door was closed, dog jumped in and pulled the mofu out the window and dragged him all over the place. they guy was about 180cm tall and at least 80-90kg. no chance for him. dont play with dogs, because more likely they will play with you!!

and a gun? i dont know if you are fast enough to draw what i would doubt. second its a relatively small target, and third, its damn fast. and a dog that atttacks you has very determined mind. if the bullet does not him inbetween the eyes will still tear you to pieces..

[zenheretic]

:spyder: For dogs pepper spray is most effective. As far as knives go I'd want something serrated :spyder:
Yeah, no loose clothes to blur the issue

[zenheretic]

An officer was chasing a perp on foot through a neighborhood here in Vegas just about a month or so ago. Well the cop cleared one fence into a backyard and was facing a pitbull...don't know if the dog attacked or if the cop just blasted it preemptively. The dog didn't make it.

Pepper spray is great until you have a strong wind and you are not up wind...then it is pretty useless or might come back in your face. I jog with pepper spray in my hand and we can get some pretty strong wind storms 40-50 miles an hour. Pretty worthless in that sort of gale.

If you ever get chomped by a dog that locks its jaws on your person, I've heard that you pour water on its nose, it can't breath and has to unlock and let go...at least with Bulldogs as their breathing is screwed up anyway.

[swissknife]

if the dog is on your arm already, try hitting its nose, its the most sensitive.. altough i had seen pitbulls with half their noses torn off and still going for it. if you ever have to face a dog to human fight, you are likely to loose it when not lucky..

[pjrocco]

A couple months ago there was a Rottwieller (sp?) loose in out neighborhood, chasing people and kids. I thought about what knife I should carry incase I was face to face with this dog. I came to the conclusion I should carry my Spyderhawk...Good blade length, hawkbill and serrated. I was told when I was a kid to attack the dogs eyes and nose. It will not kill the dog, but will defiantly stop him.

Also, this may sound gross, but if you get attacked by a pitbull and he locks onto you, break his jaw or stick something in his butt. :rolleyes: It's gross, but it works. I have raised and bread pitbulls for a long time. They are great dogs in the right hands. Stay calm and keep a clear head.

Also, a little info about pitbulls. They do not have a lock jaw. They have roughly 1200 pounds of pressure per square inch in their bite. So it may seem that they are "locking" on you, but it is actually just a huge amount of jaw strength.

[butch]

remember fur is armor and works like ball bearings plain edge will slide off more then cut im not sure about how well a SE blade might work
seems like the safest bet is to offer some thing to have them grab "arm" and stab at the throat neck after all thats the target a dog is going to be after if you let it
not a fun thought but like most incounters 2 or 4 leged ones you dont get to walk away unhurt just less hurt then the oponnet
butch

[raven]

Hey All, I hear a lot here about "Pepper Spray". Well from experience, I deal with a lot of dogs out in the County on various calls. I admit, "Pepper Spray" does work on some dogs, but not all. It depends on the breed of dog. There has been several occasions where I've sprayed, and they just look at me and kept coming without hesitation. Again depending on the breed, if sprayed, it may make them that much more aggressive and even more apt to attack. Last thing you want is to spray a dog expecting it to stop, and instead have a huge mutant ball of fur with nothing but teeth coming at you, when you expected it to stop and go the other way. Just Food for Thought. Take Care All.

God Bless :)


-raven-

[BlackNinja]

Peper spray! There are plenty of ways to dissengage yourself from a dog if you know how. One easy way is to jam your thumbs in his eyes! If it has your arm, lift it up and slam it into a tree or the ground, back first. Believe it or not, putting a peice of paper in front of you can save you from a bite. The dog doesn't know if it's paper, or a brick wall.
Number one rule: If the dog is gonna get you, let it be your arm.

This is coming from 5+ years of Schutzhund training with my Rott (who is now passed away) and my German bred German Shepherd.

[Qship]

There are two kinds of pepper spray, CN (alphachloroacetaphenone) and CS (Orthochlorobenzalmalonitrile). CN works faster on people, but CS incapacitates better, once it takes effect. Police often prefer CS because they wade in and use a whole lot of it. For spray and run, CN might be better. Some people, drunks, people on drugs, crazy people, angry people, and people who have had considerable exposure to tear gas -- like in the military -- can be resistant to either kind.

Neither kind of tear gas, which is really a micro-fine powder, not a gas, will work well on a dog.

Pepper spray contains OC (Oleoresin Capsicum), the strength of which is measured both in percent of the active ingredient and in Schoville Heat Units (SHU's). Rating are approximate, and double the ratings is not necessarily double the effect. OC works much better on dogs, but there are no guarantees. For example, large cans with high heat ratings are sold for protection against bears, but there is some anecdotal evidence that some bears enjoy it, and have been seen rolling around where OC was sprayed.

There are also sprays that are mixtures of tear gas and OC.

The stuff expires, and the cans may slowly leak down. When you buy a can, you might want to float it in water and mark the water line with permanent marker. If the can floats higher the next time you check, you have leak down.

The general guidelines are to use enough, which is generally the entire can, and not to be down wind when you spray.

I carry a fiberglass cane and a sidearm when I go walking. I'm not sure if this is still true, but the dog's brain used to be examined to determine if a dog had rabies. People were advised shoot them somewhere else. That way, if the dog came up clean, the person being bitten avoided rabies shots.

If you are bitten, you will need a tetanus shot if you have not had one recently, and it may be a legal requirement, in your jurisdiction, for medical personnel to report a dog bite. The dog owner usually has a choice: confine the dog to see if it develops rabies, or destroy it for examination. If the dog has a history of biting, the dog may be put down.

The last time I paid for a tetanus shot at my local emergency facility, it ran about $400.

Qship

[d.g.g]

It really depends on the dog. If you know dogs there are some that are territorial and will chase cars, etc. only to the edge of their front yards. Then there are some that are bred to "catch" anything that runs and these you have to be most careful of for they will not stop if you do.

Most dogs will stop if you do and while facing them slowly back away talking softly to them. Hollaring doesn't work very well. Don't try to outrun them.

I once got pinned on at the end of a lane one time by a Black Lab when I was on my bike. I had the feeling if I tried to run/ride he'd probably chase me and bite. I was stuck at the end of the lane so I couldn't retreat. I talked softly to him. He was PO'd that I was there. I just stood my ground. Finally he calmed down and we shared part of a peanut butter sandwich together on the grass. He lived there and was very protective of his pack (the people who also lived there were his pack). When he realized I wasn't a threat he came over and gave me a good sniff discovering my lunch. The way to a Lab's heart is definately through his stomach. We shared the sandwich and some good ear rubs.

Sometimes carrying a milk bone on you is a good distraction.

[ghostrider]

My only experience with dog attacks was when I was about 12 and delivering newspapers. The dog charged me, and I turned my body so that the dog bit my canvas paper carrier bag. At that time, the neighbor came out and chased the dog away. I imagine the dog was just being territorial at the time.

That said, I have no other experience or knowledge with dog attacks, so my opinion is nothing more than speculation and imagination.

The best tool I think would be a gun (for many, this isn’t practical or probable). For a knife I would want a long, pointy one. Like BlackNinja said, I would expect to get bit, and would therefore use my forearm as a shield. I don’t know how functional I would be with incisors sunk into the flesh of my forearm, but I would hope I could force the knife into the eye of the dog (probably a high level of difficulty). Once the knife is in the eye socket, I would try to force the knife to and through the brain. With most animals, there are two ways to get a “one-shot-stop”. The first is a brain shot, and the second is a spinal shot (central nervous system).

Something else to think of is maybe a partially serrated blade. Might come in handy in loosening up the jaw of the animal, but in the commotion could also be a risky maneuver to oneself.

Also, this specific topic has been done within the past year, and I wouldn't be surprised if it has been done more than that. You might try a search if your truly interested.

[spydeman]

It really depends on the dog. If you know dogs there are some that are territorial and will chase cars, etc. only to the edge of their front yards. Then there are some that are bred to "catch" anything that runs and these you have to be most careful of for they will not stop if you do.

Most dogs will stop if you do and while facing them slowly back away talking softly to them. Hollaring doesn't work very well. Don't try to outrun them.

I once got pinned on at the end of a lane one time by a Black Lab when I was on my bike. I had the feeling if I tried to run/ride he'd probably chase me and bite. I was stuck at the end of the lane so I couldn't retreat. I talked softly to him. He was PO'd that I was there. I just stood my ground. Finally he calmed down and we shared part of a peanut butter sandwich together on the grass. He lived there and was very protective of his pack (the people who also lived there were his pack). When he realized I wasn't a threat he came over and gave me a good sniff discovering my lunch. The way to a Lab's heart is definately through his stomach. We shared the sandwich and some good ear rubs.

Sometimes carrying a milk bone on you is a good distraction.

lol good story. i've been attacked and it happens like everything else. QUICK!!
a good staight kick to the nose as it comes to you will buy u some time. id did for me. MOST dogs can not bite something thats up right, or w/ out turning there heads, a swift staright kick toe up luckly worked for me.

just my 2 cents

spydeman

[ruxton]

Ok lets assume you are set upon by an attack dog, and you don't have pepper spray or a gun you have a spyderco and thats about it. I have looked into this before and here are a few techniques I have heard work against dogs (bear in mind I have not personally tested any, as I have never had the misfortune of being attacked by a dog.
1) If you have time take your coat off and wrap it round your arm then offer this to the dog. (I would say if you have the choice between doing this and drawing your knife, do this first)
2) Failing that offer it your arm sideways, I.E. hold your arm out ahead of you at an angle between 90 and 180 degrees and bend your wrist so that your palm is facing towards you, try to get it to latch on to your forarm rather than your wrist and try to keep the inside of your wrist facing you so it's teeth don't cut your wrist.
3) [I'm a bit dubious of this one as it's complicated and it exposes your throat] When it's latched onto your arm the pain will be intense, don't pull away from it and try to pull your arm free, instead lift and try to get its front legs off the ground, reach down and grab one of its back legs with your free hand and lift it up. it should be pretty much off the ground at this point, it's teeth on your arm and your other hand grabbing one of it's back legs. Most of the time it will leg go at this point, if not spin round on the spot and it will let go, leaving you spinning with it, swinging it like a doggie-baseball bat by the back legs. Drive it into the floor. Repeatedly.
4)[I'd feel alot safer with this one] If it latches onto you pretty much anywhere put your finger through it's eye into it's brain. This one's pretty much guaranteed to work.
5) If you can get to them grab it's nuts and squeeze hard. Again this one's pretty much guaranteed to work.
6) If it bites you high, around the neck area say, grab its two front legs and pull them apart. [you have to be fairly strong but this is pretty much guaranteed to kill it]
7) I hear they are susceptible to roundhouse kicks as their ribcage is alot weaker than ours.
8) If it latches onto an arm try and make it the left arm, that way you can still draw your spydie with your right. go for the throat if you can but be aware of your own wrist very near by, don't go accidentally cutting your wrist in a blind panic.
9) I would go with a SE over a PE. cutting it will stop it either by killing it, bleeding it out, damaging it enough that it cant continue the attack or causing it enough pain to know it's not going to win. Serrations are better at causing pain, on all the other counts they are about equal.
10) If it's a hawksbill type blade (E.G. Harpy, Civilian) go for slashes to the throat, nose and underbelly (again watch your arm though). If it's not (E.G. Police, Delica) go for stabs to the eye's and body and slashes to the throat nose and underbelly once again. If you can reach to cut the groin area this will stop it in it's tracks faster than a bullet. :D
As far as multiple dogs go... in the words of Rorion Gracie - “More than one. Get a gun.”

EDIT: Oops forgot an obvious one, bite it back, say its latched onto your arm, bite its nose off and spit it back in it's face. Watch for rabies though, the risk of rabies is half the reasoning behind number 1 (the coat one).

[WORKER#9]

Karambit! in each hand! Just shred the poor pooch to pieces.

Seriously I carry pepper spray a large can of it when I walk my dogs. I have three Muts and I am a dog lover. I prefer pepper spray as I truly don't want to kill the other dog if I don't have to. I will say the only incident I have had lately was on a recent walk a PIt BULL mix dog off leash got a little aggressive towards my two dogs on leash. I told the owner to control his dog. And he replied " it's cool". At which point I Told him it wasn't F#*kin COOL. I starting seeing red.... I almost sprayed him with the pepper spray. My wife said I Totally lost it. I did. But when I am pissed, right here right now takes over. Needless to say the guy got control of the dog and left without looking at me again, in total silence.

I was carrying a Karambit and after the pepper spray was empty, I was ready to move to the next level of force. Thank goodness it did not come to that. Adrenaline is a hell of a drug! :D

[Piet.S]

Pray you don't end like this, for you are slow and weak and underarmed.

[thenick]

I've been attacked 2 times by a dog. I was living far from the city with the cows, horses and all that so the dogs were free to go. I was biking in the small roads and when they decide that they go after you, they go.

The best trick I found was to roll my t-shirt around my arm and let the dog bite at it and then just brake one of the dog's let. If that wouldn't work I was continuing. After 2 legs I never saw a dog continuing biting you.

I hate hurting a dog because it's a so nice animal but I guess that survival instinct is stronger.

I would do it again without any hesitation. If it's a pitbull then GO THE FSCK AWAY because they won't let go.

[HoB]

Depends very much on the dog. For most dogs a long stick is your best choice. For those dogs hand and feet are a better armament than a knife. Never forget that you are a pedator as well and have at least 100 lbs on most dogs. Grab it ruthlessly close to the head to avoid bites and lift if of the ground (a thick jacket is always a plus). If you are familiar with dogs that is easier than it sounds and chances are that the dog will survive it completely unharmed. Throw it on its back and control it by the throat.

Then there are those dogs that were bred to fight and who's owners have encouraged the instinct. I would recomment a large gauge shotgun for those. Don't even try anything else, it will only get you killed. Bullterrier are nasty and dangerous if they haven't been trained and kept properly (and if you are attact by one this is clearly the case), but at least you still have the 100+ lbs advantage on them. If a Mastif attacks you, you better get some place were the dog can not get at you, and call 911. At 150-200 lbs, they are as heavy as you, stronger, and can swallow your entire lower arm in one gulp.

[Simple Man]

The last time I paid for a tetanus shot at my local emergency facility, it ran about $400.
Qship

I got one recently at the local health dept., they free for disaster relief volunteers and about $15 for the general public. I think it would have been about $25 at the Dr's office. This was before needing it though, not after. That may have something to do with the $$$. Just another reason to be up to date.

[WORKER#9]

Pray you don't end like this, for you are slow and weak and underarmed.

Now thats funny!!

[WORKER#9]

For the worst case scenario Try Cyanide dog biscuits, I have heard there quite effective also. :eek:

[swissknife]

[QUOTE=BlackNinja]One easy way is to jam your thumbs in his eyes! If it has your arm, lift it up and slam it into a tree or the ground, back first. Believe it or not, putting a peice of paper in front of you can save you from a bite. The dog doesn't know if it's paper, or a brick wall.
Number one rule: If the dog is gonna get you, let it be your arm.QUOTE]

ever lifted a 40+kg dog thats fond of biting your arm? you must be a strong man my friend.. considering a big rottweiler, thats about 60kg, a mastino napoletano is about 80kg. eye-trick? well, dogs have a second eyelid that closes usually when they bite. a paper? my dog jumps even through glass doors if there is need to.. :D and my dog is also imune to food from other people. no cyanide.. :D

[BlackNinja]

I highly dissagree with trying to put something around your arm if you are confronted by a dog!

First- I have done professional training with dogs and can tell you that putting something around your arm just invites even a dog with no intent on biting, to go for your arm. If you have a trained dog, it's a guaranteed bite!

Second- If you have time to take something off and put it on your arm then, you most likely have time to escape!

If you know your going to get bit and had time to wrap your arm then, do so. If you walk around the corner and are confronted, as said before, speak softly and slowly walk backwards. Try not to keep eye contact with the animal as it will only provoke him. Keep a treat in your pocket, let him know you have it and either let him, or toss it away from you, slowly. Don't make sudden movements. Put something inbetween you and the dog. Like I said a dog doesn't know the difference between a peice of paper and a brick wall. Just my thoughts.

[swissknife]

If you know your going to get bit and had time to wrap your arm then, do so. If you walk around the corner and are confronted, as said before, speak softly and slowly walk backwards. Try not to keep eye contact with the animal as it will only provoke him. Keep a treat in your pocket, let him know you have it and either let him, or toss it away from you, slowly. Don't make sudden movements. Put something inbetween you and the dog. Like I said a dog doesn't know the difference between a peice of paper and a brick wall. Just my thoughts.

as quoted, my dog goes through glassdoors. it will not accept food from hand nor thrown.

if a dog sees you walk backwards slowly, it will attack immediately. dont walk backwards, just turn around and walk away. NOT WALK BACKWARDS! usually dogs do that to "measure" distance for a jump to attack themselves.

i received dog training by hans schlegel, a swiss guy that teaches american, african and from where ever police dogs.

[BlackNinja]

[QUOTE=BlackNinja]One easy way is to jam your thumbs in his eyes! If it has your arm, lift it up and slam it into a tree or the ground, back first. Believe it or not, putting a peice of paper in front of you can save you from a bite. The dog doesn't know if it's paper, or a brick wall.
Number one rule: If the dog is gonna get you, let it be your arm.QUOTE]

ever lifted a 40+kg dog thats fond of biting your arm? you must be a strong man my friend.. considering a big rottweiler, thats about 60kg, a mastino napoletano is about 80kg. eye-trick? well, dogs have a second eyelid that closes usually when they bite. a paper? my dog jumps even through glass doors if there is need to.. :D and my dog is also imune to food from other people. no cyanide.. :D
My Rott was 160 lbs. When he really pissed me off (running across a street to chase a cat) I had no problem picking him up by the neck, eye level with me (I'm 6'1") and carring him across the street and through my front yard to my porche (about 35 yards total.) You may think thats wrong but, he never did it again. I may have saved his life by training him not to cross a street. That was only one time, I trained him by constantly throwing his kong in the road and having him stop before he got to the there. It eventually became instinct for him to not cross a road. He (now passed on), as well as my Shepherd are trained in the same way with food. One other person is allowed (my father in law) to feed him. I learned the hard way with my Rott. Anywhere I went for the most part, he went to! I was the only person who could feed him. I bet he's went to more concerts than more people on the forum! :p

[STR]

Three words for SD against a dog. "BANG BANG BANG".

STR

[WOTANSON1]

As a licensed veterinary technician with more than my fair share of aggressive shelter "hood" dog experience I offer the following advice.

1. If there is an aggressive dog(s) in your neighborhood that the owner repeatedly allows to roam free, call animal control as many times as it takes to get them to comply with local "dog on a leash or fenced" regulations.

2. If out jogging or walking and attacked a 2-4 ft. stick like a broom handle is your best defence imho.

3. Pray that your state doesn't consider dogs as members of the family, because if it does and you use a knife in self defense, say goodbye to your house, car, and children's college fund when the owner sues your ass off in court for pain and suffering.....for the dog, unless of course you can find documented proof that the dog has attacked humans before.

4. As the owner of a 13 lb Boston Terrier that was viciously attacked by a HUMAN while on leash in a NYC park I think a pistol would have been the only thing to stop me from stomping the guys guts out with my size 14's, lucky for me and unlucky for the scum, he didn't have one. ;)
Cheers,
Rob

[Tank]

I have been confronted twice by aggressive dogs. (both Doberman pinchers)
First one I got out of my car and had my heavy jacket in my hand so i used it as a shield and moved slowly back and got back in the car.
The next time some years later it was far enough away when it started coming at me that my reaction was to start yelling and running full speed towards it. I got about 20 ft from it and it turned and run. Not sure if it was the right thing but it worked.

I love dogs ( I am owned by 3 ) but I have 0 tolerence for aggressive dogs like that. There is no place in society for them. Only Police dogs should be trained for attack IMO.
I think I read 70% or more of all dog attacks happen in there own yard and 80% of those, its a family member that is the victim (not quite sure of the numbers but they are close). If a dog is that aggressive.. only solution....put it down.

[BlackNinja]

I love dogs ( I am owned by 3 ) but I have 0 tolerence for aggressive dogs like that. There is no place in society for them. Only Police dogs should be trained for attack IMO.
I think I read 70% or more of all dog attacks happen in there own yard and 80% of those, its a family member that is the victim (not quite sure of the numbers but they are close). If a dog is that aggressive.. only solution....put it down.
Those stats are right on the money!
But I do have to disagree with you that "Only Police dogs should be trained for attack." I respect your opinion, but disagree. I want my dog for a companion and to protect me and my loved ones. I live in a small town and a lot of people know I own a well trained German Shepherd. A robber will think twice when he sees 110lb German Shepherd is living on the premesis. My Rott was MUCH bigger and, people were (unfortunetly) scared stiff on site. I guess my point is, if criminals know you have a gaurd dog, they won't hit your place. If they don't know, I want a well trained dog letting them know they just broke into the wrong house!

[STR]

I love dogs as much as the next guy. I have a Saint Bernard and a Great Pyrenees and both are great. I had a Chow once. Actually three. Two turned on me and one got to live to a ripe old age. The two that turned? Bang bang. Yes I was upset but I won't have it. If I won't put up with that from my own animals I certainly am not likely to put up with it from someone elses. And if you could see my arm and the scars that animal gave me before I killed it you'd understand why it died like it did..

STR

[Tank]

Those stats are right on the money!
But I do have to disagree with you that "Only Police dogs should be trained for attack." I respect your opinion, but disagree. I want my dog for a companion and to protect me and my loved ones. I live in a small town and a lot of people know I own a well trained German Shepherd. A robber will think twice when he sees 110lb German Shepherd is living on the premesis. My Rott was MUCH bigger and, people were (unfortunetly) scared stiff on site. I guess my point is, if criminals know you have a gaurd dog, they won't hit your place. If they don't know, I want a well trained dog letting them know they just broke into the wrong house!
I would agree with you to a point, I think if your going to train your dog for suck a thing then the dog should be a licenced for it and the owner held accountable for any damage done to anyone not trying to do harm to you and yours. In this case I dont think the dog would be as much a threat as the owner would in most cases be a more "responsible" owner.
I have newfs and my oldest male is 150 lbs and my pup will probably surpass that (7 months and 76 lbs). They are the most gentle of animals and would only lick an intruder to death but there sheer size is deterant enough. Salesmen have jumped off my porch when they come to the door and meet them through the screen. I think just having a dog in most cases is deterant enough.. they don't need to be trained to be agressive. but again if you want to then you should be held 100% accountable for there actions.

[NorthShore]

The three all time best ways plane and simple

1) The Darth Vador death pinch

2) The Vulcan mind jam

3) Let it bite your arm then stab it in the neck with your worker!

[zenheretic]

I refuse to subscribe to any self defense that starts with the words,"offer up one off your arms for them to chomp"... Yes an akidoist might have something up his sleeve, but really that works against human hand mechanics better than dog jaws that are secured into your arm with canines. Use anything else at hand (bookbag, manbag, purse, stick, folding chair, etc.) before programing yourself to offer up an appendage. Believe me if your first line of defense fails, your arm will instinctively rise to cover your front so don't preprogram that as an opening move. Remember you fight like you train, and if your only training is discussions like this you will be offering up an arm. I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I see a dog chomp onto something, it thrashes its head back and forth. Rarely is a dog gonna chomp your arm and simply stare into your eyes with its pretty browns. Keeping it from chomping on you is the #1 goal...if you can get in a lucky kick or two to soften him up before he chomps you are ahead of the game. I can kick a person in the head faster than average folks can react, but my silly 9 lbs Havanese dog can dodge my feet when I am just playing with him...dogs got some fast reflexes but if they are on the defensive they ain't chomping.

If and when they do chomp it is gonna hurt, and if they are some of the big mosters you guys are describing they will be flinging you around. Now you have to focus on all the attacks others have said: throat (dogs always instinctively protect this area for a reason...vulnerable. As was pointed out now is a great time to attack its legs, ribs, nuts (if it has any) as it can't dodge. If you are in a dog fight this deep you better not give up as most dogs want your throat instinctively (watch a dog fight, they always go for the throat if possible)...you are fighting for your life, strike fast and hard as much as possible, be it hand, foot, knife, club.

Despite Swissknives experience with trained dogs, I have never seen a regular aggressive dog that didn't launch an attack when you turned away from it. As someone else already mentioned, you are really screwed if more than one dog is after your hide. One or more will always attempt a flank attack, they love those tender calves and it isn't called an Achilles' heal for nothing. If you are stuck where you are you better find a wall, tree, car etc to cover your backside.

[mikewww]

When you grab a dog by its paws, in order to pull them apart and restrict the dog's breathing, I think the dog's jaws are almost in your face ! Not good.

How about (and I am serious here) the new FireByrd with a pepperspray cannister instead of the lighter. This would be good for dogs and baddies. I guess we could call it the PepperByrd !!

[zenheretic]

When you grab a dog by its paws, in order to pull them apart and restrict the dog's breathing, I think the dog's jaws are almost in your face ! Not good.

How about (and I am serious here) the new FireByrd with a pepperspray cannister instead of the lighter. This would be good for dogs and baddies. I guess we could call it the PepperByrd !!
Yeah good point as it is self defeating to help him get his choppers near your throat or face! However if he is already there or knocked you down and was on top of you it is good idea as a potential technique.

Heck if you go for a Pepperbyrd just up the ante and for the PhoenixByrd and small byrd knife and a flame thrower...not many dogs will stand up to that...except maybe Lassie. :p

[Delica_Nut]

But I observed a German Shepard jump a guy once and grabbed his left arm. The guy (John I think his name was) opened his Buck 110 with his teeth as the dog dragged him to the ground. He had to stab the dog 3 or 4 times in the neck area before the beast ran of. But that didnt kill the dog, as we had seen him about a month later with his side shaved and the scars showing. The guy got 30+ stitches in his forearm (His arm never looked right after the attack). Later that year someone poisoned the beast. because he killed an old ladies cat. Many believe it was the old lady who did it. This happend in the mid 80's and I think the guy carries Benchmade now so he doesnt have to use his teeth in emergencies.

On another note I did get to shoot a Rotweider (SP?) after it bit the hell out of a pregnate neighbor. We all formed a posse and drove around the dairy and nearby properties until we found the f*****r. A .44 mag delivered from my Winchester 94 stopped his bitting days in a spray of brain matter. The womans husbin dragged the SOB back to its owners property and hung it up in his yard. Or atlest thats what the State Trooper was asking my bro and me about. We didnt see anything thou!

[mikewww]

Shouldn't that read "........we found the sucker." ?

[ruxton]

Easy spelling mistake to make, they are close to each other, only one key apart. ;)

[Simple Man]

Here is some good info about dog attacks from a gentleman (Q, with his permission) from another forum, SwampRat in particular.

http://www.iprepare.org/GH_ShowArticle.asp?HID=43&CATID=26

A lot of other good info there also.

Joyce, TK, let me know if this is a problem.

[swissknife]

Despite Swissknives experience with trained dogs, I have never seen a regular aggressive dog that didn't launch an attack when you turned away from it. As someone else already mentioned, you are really screwed if more than one dog is after your hide. One or more will always attempt a flank attack, they love those tender calves and it isn't called an Achilles' heal for nothing. If you are stuck where you are you better find a wall, tree, car etc to cover your backside.

ups, that was misunderstood! i was talking about just a "regular" aggressive dog. if its trained, then you better go for it. usually dogs that are barking at you are territorial, so, if you just walk away of "his property", whatever it considers to be his, it will leave you alone..

[catamount]

Here is some good info about dog attacks from a gentleman (Q, with his permission) from another forum, SwampRat in particular.

http://www.iprepare.org/GH_ShowArticle.asp?HID=43&CATID=26

Good article.

Thanks Simple Man :) Thanks to everyone else who has contributed, as well.

[swissknife]

great article, can agree a 100%!

the last line made me laugh: "This procedure is good against one dog. Two dogs? Well...good luck." :D

[mikewww]

I remember a dog-dog fight I witnessed as a kid. Everything had been tried : buckets of water, pepper, kicking....nothing could separate the boxer from the smaller dog's neck. Until a well-dressed woman stepped up, took a long drag from her cigarette, and stuck the now-glowing butt into the boxer's exposed butt ! End of fight, with one boxer running home in a crouched position, screaming, and the other dog going the other way, bleeding, but alive.

You should try this sometime........no, not on a dog, on yourself, to see how effective it can be ! But you would have to be a smoker to use this technique in SD !

Mike

[cguthrie]

Lot's of good info on dogs. Except for the extremely rare professionally trained attack dog, I'd rather be around a random dog than a random person any day. And I'd probably still like to be around the professional dog if the owner wasn't around!

Many times I've visited clients who have had "vicious" yard dogs, and the clients have admonished me to please not pet their attack dogs. It was defeating their purpose. Most dogs have better judgement than people in my opinion.

Recently I was in the city and someone showed up next to my car with a tough looking dog, and the dog was happy to see me, to the suprise of the owner. Again, dogs are not the smartest animals like us but their are fairly smart and have great judgement.

I really find it hard to think of a time that I'd use a knife against a dog. God forbid if you're in a situation that you're really being attacked by a dog, something has gone very wrong, and hopefully you have a gun. Multiple serious dogs, good luck.

My mother always told me, if you ever get bit by a dog, it's your fault. I don't know if she was right but I've always had a good respect for dogs, and never had a problem, so far.

BTW, just purchased my first Spydie, a Rescue 79MM & love it!

CG

[Hillbilly]

this was a funny thread.

cant believe the number of suggestions I saw for pepper spray.
all I can say is that if you have a Yorkie intent on ripping your Achilles tendon out, then it'll prolly work good.

but for any kind of a dog that poses a real threat, that's a joke. the notion is along the same lines as carrying pepper spray to defend yourself against a enraged druggie.

speaking from first hand experience, when a dog attacks you, there isn't time to think..."need to get my arm around its neck, pick it up and slam it against something, poke its eyes out, etc" its doing whatever presents itself, given the current position of you and the dog. the main idea is to keep it away from your groin, away from your neck and always block with your weak arm, not hand. a arm heals very well and is very durable. a hand is a different story, doesn't take much to make a person gimp for life.

if you do have to stab it, stab it in the neck, all the way past the handle. any other way and there still is a huge risk of it biting you while its dying. one thing to remember, to stab one of them...your hands are going to be close to its mouth.

plugging a dogs eyes with your thumbs seems like a "good idea at the time" notion, considering that you now have BOTH your hands right next to its chompers.

[mikewww]

Hi cguthrie, and a warm welcome to the Form. You bought a Spyderco ? I hope you had protection, or you will end up a Spyderholic like the rest of us ! In a few days you will feel this tremendous urge to own another one. And so on ! Seriously, the only organ affected will be the wallet. I hope you enjoy your stay here.

Cheers

Mike

[JaM]

He's right :D. I'm here for just a few days now, and already have the urge to "gotta catch them all" :D !!

Welcome, and enjoy your stay !

BTT: I was bitten once, as a kid. It was a German Sheppard, I was visiting friends of my parents and just playing in the yard. He (think it was a he) came out of nowhere, treid to grab my ankle IIRC (I was 5-6 ?). Guess I screamed a lot, and kicked it too. Fortunately my parents and the owners came out quickly, so there was no (real) harm done. Later I heared they put him to sleep, not because of me but he later attacked more people (just jumped out of the garden, and on the street).
This time it had nothing to do with upbringing/training, the dog just went mad. I think a lot of sheppards have that (more or less), when they get old they might get mad. It's one breed I cant trust 100%.

Maybe, if you are really into SD and cant get a knife ready: choke it. forearm under the neck, get your body positioned over the dog so it cant go forward nor backwards, and just make sure he cant breathe. Rather risky though, but an MMA-style attack (groundwork and such) is not a thing a dog will expect, I think. I just hope I wont have to prove this though ;) .

[jsholli]

Certainly welcome to the forum, cguthrie!

I echo the compliments on the article linked by Simple Man; good one, I especially wanted to reiterate the initial point of it---be aware of your surroundings and the events that are unfolding...paying attention and being alert will keep you out of various kinds of trouble.


When staying alert doesn't KEEP you out of trouble, it at least reduces the advantage any aggressor has by eliminating their element of surprise.

I also want to emphasize the point that many of you have made about the vital throat area. If the dog/aggressor cannot breathe and is loosing the majority of its blood through a severed jugular, the attack is over. To get to this point in the conflict, a serrated hawkbill or civi would be preferable.

With most confrontations, being alert and avoiding the whole thing is the best option, but you have to be ready to deal with anything. Be familiar with all the SD options you plan to carry and how to effectively and fully use every one of them.

[ruxton]

Maybe, if you are really into SD and cant get a knife ready: choke it. forearm under the neck, get your body positioned over the dog so it cant go forward nor backwards, and just make sure he cant breathe. Rather risky though, but an MMA-style attack (groundwork and such) is not a thing a dog will expect, I think. I just hope I wont have to prove this though ;) .
I assume from the description you mean a guillotine choke, surely for that you would need both arms free. I would go for an eye gouge myself, failing that a roundhouse/side/stomp kick to the legs, their legs are alot more fragile than ours. Trust me going to the ground is the last thing you want to do, they instinctively go for the neck. You basically have to disable it so it can't attack anymore, I very much doubt any sort of choke will work, you will have to blind it or break one of its legs. (Or kill it with a knife)

[zenheretic]

this was a funny thread.

cant believe the number of suggestions I saw for pepper spray.
all I can say is that if you have a Yorkie intent on ripping your Achilles tendon out, then it'll prolly work good.
.
Well considering pepper spray was invented to stop bears, successfully I might add, it is perfectly reasonable to assume it would work on dogs, even more so considering the olfactory senses a normal dog has over a person and likely even a bear. :rolleyes:

[raven]

Hey Zen, I have a fellow Instructor that his department was picked to test out various types of Pepper Spray/Bear Spray. Didn't work a bit on the Bears, but sure did "Tick Them Off" though :eek: :eek: . Take Care Bro.

God Bless :)


-raven-

[Outlaw]

Interesting thread...

First off... I have never been attacked by an angry/defensive dog. But once, long ago, I owned a very LARGE female German Shepard that I rescued from the pound.

We had an incident. :o

One day I was getting ready to feed the dog in my kitchen. For some STUPID reason I was down on my knees filling the dog's food dish when she came running up. Somehow the dogs skull & my nose made contact... HARD :eek:

The pain was un-freakin'-believable!

I don't remember reacting at all, the next thing I knew my fist was coming back from hitting the dog right behind the left shoulder. I must have knocked the wind out of her because she dropped like a sack of potatoes.

Since then I haven't really worried about dogs too much. :cool:

Disclaimer: This dog was NOT attacking me, & I had the element of surprise. Your results using this technique MAY vary! :rolleyes:

[Hillbilly]

might want to check your facts on the pepper spray.

also Bear spray is completely different from standard pepper spray. in almost every aspect.

what you consider successful, a vast majority would not. many wind up dead because of false security in the pepper cloud.

while never having the opportunity to try bear mace on a live bear or anything else(have you seen the cans? I can carry a 44 mag in that size) I have had experience with various forms of pepper spray. this isn't "assuming" but experience.

just trying to save some people the trouble of getting their face/groin/neck torn to shreds because someone gave them the idea that pepper spray is a effective deterrent.

[zenheretic]

might want to check your facts on the pepper spray.

also Bear spray is completely different from standard pepper spray. in almost every aspect.

what you consider successful, a vast majority would not. many wind up dead because of false security in the pepper cloud.

while never having the opportunity to try bear mace on a live bear or anything else(have you seen the cans? I can carry a 44 mag in that size) I have had experience with various forms of pepper spray. this isn't "assuming" but experience.

just trying to save some people the trouble of getting their face/groin/neck torn to shreds because someone gave them the idea that pepper spray is a effective deterrent.

Ok Hillbilly, many have voiced the weaknesses of pepper spray prior to you (including me). Yeah and everything can fail, including your firearm...do you carry a .44 24/7? Can everyone else carry a gun 24/7 or at all? Well the answer is no for most so I guess we better explore other options. So I have learned something today, apparently bear spray and pepper spray are two different animals.

I know that bear spray is oleoresin of capsaicin spray so what exactly is pepper spray? Oh yes oleoresin of capsaicin....hmmm interesting their is a difference but completely different? I think not. You have encouraged me to "check my facts" so I have done so. Going to my homeland (home of Glacier National Park and Bordering Yellowstone National Park, Montana has some of the most numerous Grizzly Bear populations in the lower 48. Here is what a quick google search will give you: Here reports 500 successful tests vs. black and grizzly bears...again if it can work against a bear it can work against a dog. http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/wildlife/igbc/background.htm

http://mountain-prairie.fws.gov/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%20spray.pdf this one is from from US Fish and Wildlife Service...I guess Hillbilly better go and set them straight too :rolleyes:

Then we have a retailer and a couple of manufacturers:
http://www.pepper-spray-store.com/relatedinfo/whatis.shtml
http://www.udap.com/faq.htm#Q1
These folks who if I am not mistaken actually invented the stuff: http://www.counterassault.com/index.html
Both of these industry leaders use capsaicin as the main ingredient...I don't have to check any facts to know that this is the same ingredients as...Pepper Spray.

Oh wait, I actually found the "different in almost every aspect" between pepper spray and bear spray listed on this government site: http://www.nps.gov/yell/tours/rangerlife/bearspray.htm
If anyone has trouble with that site I'll give you a hint...it is the size of the can.

This government site is listed as I find the last paragraph particularily interesting: http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/wildlife/igbc/Spray.htm In case you missed the point I copied it, "No deterrent is 100% effective, but compared to all others, including firearms, bear spray has demonstrated the most success in fending off threatening and attacking bears and preventing injury to the person and animal involved."

Yes pepper spray (bear spray) can fail...even on bears...even on lowly humans...still an option, although it, like everything else has its weaknesses. Ok in the event of an impending dog attack, what would you rather do? Spray the dog and hope it will work, odds are it will, or just stand there offer up your forearm to be torn to shreds and try something already listed in the short range options. Me? Since I don't carry a gun 24/7, but I do carry Pepper/Bear Spray frequently, I'll try that if I have the time, then as the dog closes I'll try use a backpack, fanny pack, park bench, garbage can, whatever that is at hand to use as a shield, last line is my weak fore arm as listed in the article that was posted long before Hillbilly's sage advice.

Finally, Hillbilly, I encourage you to read the entire thread before you stuff me into a blind category of only supporting one option...especially pepper spray, bear spray, hair spray or any spray. Oh and according to you, many wind up dead in the false security of a pepper cloud? That is why cops all over the country carry it...it is so prone to failure.

[Halfneck]

Only had 2 dog attacks in my life.

1st was when I was 5 and a neighbor's german shepherd cornered me and my cat. Well Fu, my 18 pound mutant-siamese, freaked out and jumped on the dogs face clawing out 1 eye and ripping the dogs nose almost off - end of incident. Miss that cat.

2nd time I was 11 and we had just moved to a new house. I was out back hitting a tennis ball against the garage with a bat when it bounced over a neighbor's fence. Up till then I had never seen or heard any evidence of them having a dog, nor were any "Beware of Dog" signs posted, so I climbed over the fence to get my ball. Luckily I still had my bat because as I stood up from picking up the ball I saw a Doberman running at me. Initial swing was 1 handed and knocked the Doberman to the side and dazed him. Even then the Doberman got up wobbily, growling and ready to come at me. After that I proceeded to beat the crap out of that dog with the bat till it ran off whimpering. I ended up apologizing to our new neighbor's for hurting their K-9 trained guard dog and I think (never asked my Step-Father) we payed for the Vet bill. I know I was in the wrong, and the dog was only defending it's territory, but I was lucky I had my bat in hand.

[Hillbilly]

I seem to offended you, when I only voiced a opinion.

didn't mean to do that, just simply stating first hand experience. if you want to put a lot of faith in pepper spray and the like, go right ahead. I don't know you personally so it makes no never mind to me.

since you seem to really like this comment "No deterrent is 100% effective, but compared to all others, including firearms, bear spray has demonstrated the most success in fending off threatening and attacking bears and preventing injury to the person and animal involved." I do really hope you read close, it says AND ANIMAL INVOLVED. cant imagine why it has the most success.

your listing ingredients and the like, not percentages of the ingredients. there is a difference between police mace and pepper spray.

its ok, I understand, you more than likely have never had to act in any of these scenarios or ever had your life in danger and actually used pepper spray. believe what you want, however I find it very odd that you choose to carry pepper spray when there are suitable firearms of the same size.

Just FYI- LEOS have mace because it is almost a sure guarantee of non lethal enforcement if need be.

[Qship]

The reason I carry pepper spray is that the Post Office issues it, or at least used to issue it, to mail carriers. Several mail carriers have told me they had good results.

Qship

[Jimmy_Dean]

Funny, I was watching jacka$$ the other day and the scene where Bam had put an alligator in his parent's kitchen had me thinking?
"What would I use if I was attacked by a large animal?"
well to be honnest, I think I'd want an axe. Even for a dog. It's too fast and resilient to try and karambit it away. I'd just whack it out. Sorry for the dog lovers out there. I love dogs myself but wouldn't want to be attacked by one.

The axe, of course is a "best scenario" situation, most likely, you'd just have to kick and punch all you can and hope for the best

[zenheretic]

Just FYI- LEOS have mace because it is almost a sure guarantee of non lethal enforcement if need be.
Just an FYI there is a huge difference between mace and bear spray... :rolleyes: