204 in Blade

[J Smith]

Anyone else notice the sharpener review in Blade this month?
The 204 came in last in edge sharpness.If it really came in last I really need to see the others.

[The General]

I find this all rather puzzling. I have tried many different systems, but ultimatly the simplicity and speed of set up of the 204 wins out.

With the Ultra Fine Stones I get the kind of edge that most people can only dream of. Sure, I mostly free hand with the UF Stones, but if you want a quick sharpen or touch up, the 204 is just about the best system I have used.

What its not good at is fast stock removal, even with the Diamond stones.

Perhaps the lack of rapid removal and different angles is what let the 204 down in the review? Either way, the 204 is still a great system. Anything that can get a knife to do the things my Murry Carter custom neck knife can do is no system anyone can ignore.

[J Smith]

I don't know,maybe the author was useing a brand new 204 where as the stone were not broken in.
My Sebenza and SNG both needed a little more than a crock stick so I just washed the stones of my 204 and with in minites had them both shaveing sharp.

[smcfalls13]

Anyone else notice the sharpener review in Blade this month?
The 204 came in last in edge sharpness.If it really came in last I really need to see the others.

Last compared with what? And who did the sharpening?

A proficient user of a benchstone can get a blade far sharper than the Sharpmaker, but there's more skill involved. The average guy, working with the various sharpening systems out there, is going to be able to get a better edge with the Sharpmaker than most other systems, simply through ease of use.

I don't buy it. There some details missing here. The 204 is THE MOST RESPECTED sharpener out there. Even other companies recommend it(on Chris Reeve's website for example) so I highly doubt it would be beaten out by some of the other sharpeners, in a PROPERLY CONTROLLED testing.

Theres too many factors to consider in a test like that anyway. How many people did the sharpening, one person, or 300? One person may have a proficiency in certain sharpeners. What knives were used? A thick knife with a 50 degree angle isn't going to get sharp on the Sharpmaker given the amount of time probably dedicated to the test, since it would need a reprofiling.

Too many factors, and too much cooking the Stats. If the test was a controlled setting, with proper scientific procedures and protocols, I'll accept it.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm a born skeptic :o

[zenheretic]

They should have used me as a tester...I suck equally in all systems...

[vampyrewolf]

"speed of setup" eh?

204: find it, clear space on table or counter, fumble with stones and rods
benchstone: grab off shelf, sit in chair :p

Did both my 5.5" chef's and the folks' 11" butcher in under 5min this afternoon, had to touch mine up for a batch of jerky and the edge was a tad beat up on my folks. Went from "general kitchen duty" edges to just shy of shaving, around 20deg inclusive.

only thing that I know that even comes close for that kind of speed on a beat up edge is a grinder or belt sander.

[Native Justice]

Even when reprofiling with additional diamond hones on CPM30V or M2 the SM rocks. Reprofiled a blade to 30 degrees combined in less than an hour (including final finishing with UF hones). Rock solid system. For the average user there is no better system for the money. Expert or above average users may do better with Lanskey's, Gatco's, or other edge clamp systems but there is no crock stick system better. Free-handing is for experts and can't compare, especially taking into account the number of stones needed for a finished edge. Flexibility is its' key, you can use it as a typical crock stick sharpener or lay it on its back and use it free hand. None of the others come close to this level of dexterity. For under $50 for the base system how could anyone possibly come close? :eek:

[Pete1977]

I don't buy it. There some details missing here. The 204 is THE MOST RESPECTED sharpener out there. Even other companies recommend it(on Chris Reeve's website for example) so I highly doubt it would be beaten out by some of the other sharpeners, in a PROPERLY CONTROLLED testing.



I even saw it in the cold steel special projects catalog. I love the thing, and it is a fast yet extremely efficient way to get a knife scary sharp.

PEte

[JD Spydo]

That is a bunch of garbage :mad: . I don't know what conditions in which they used it but they obviously didn't watch the video or read any of the booklet that came with it. As much as I enjoy reading some of the monthly publications I've got to say that a lot of these articles in BLADE the last 4 to 5 years are nothing more that "infomercials". I have tried many other sharpening systems over the years and the only one I have found that I think could be a near equal or slightly better. That would be the "Razor Edge System". That is a totally scientific multi-staged sharpening system. It takes a lot of time to achieve what you would have to do to follow all of their steps. But I must say there is nothing fake about the Razor Edge System.

As far as knife magazines go I tend to like Tactical Knives and Knife World the best. But even they have their faults :( . Oh one other note. A lot of guys on Bladeforums have been bragging up the Edge Pro System. I have never used it or seen one in use but a lot of guys/gals like it. But to say the 204 Sharpmaker is a inadequate is total BS :mad:

[J Smith]

Heres the bands tested with thier edge production rateing
1.Smiths sure sharp 10
2 Russell field sharpener 8
3 Lansky Crock stick 8
4 DMY diamond V 8
5 Chefs choice exact V 8
6 Sharpmaker 7
As I said if all these were brand new and not broken in then the test means nothing.I know my 204 did not start doing a great job until the 4th or 5 th time I used it.
Plus from the looks of it he was not useing the same type knife on each system.

[BlackNinja]

They should have used me as a tester...I suck equally in all systems...
LOL :D They could have used both of us!

[ghostrider]

Late to the party, but I just finished reading this article. The comparison was said to be on the “V” sharpeners, but IMHO was between several crock stick systems, and one “V” system (the Smiths). Only two of the systems reviewed allowed for two angles (setting both a primary edge, and back bevel). The system that was rated highest in “Edge Production” was the Smiths. Since that is a “V” sharpener, I would be interested to hear what Hob says about it since he has berated them in the past. One thing I did notice is that it is obvious that the author didn’t read the Sharpmaker instructions, or watch the video. Either that or he just decided to ignore them. The reason I say that is the following:

“The triangular abrasive rods have both flat sides and corners for dealing with plain or serrated edges (this feature alone sets this sharpener apart from others of its kind).”


There is no mention of the “four steps” for a back bevel, and then the four steps for a primary edge. That leads me to believe that he may well have skipped the steps using the corners, or may have not used the corners and flats in conjunction with each other. The Sharpmaker was designed to use both the corners and the flats together on a plain edge. I may be a bit presumptuous hear, but the way he wrote it makes it sound like he left a lot out of the sharpening process.

[HoB]

Since I haven't seen the article yet, I can not add much. But I think Ghostrider may be recalling incorrectly, what I said. If it is a V-sharpener like the Sharpmaker (which I like a lot) (see for example this: http://www.agrussell.com/accessories/sharpening/a_g_russell_ceramic_sharpener.html) its just a matter of execution, even though I think it will be hard to beat the Sharpmaker and even with better execution you won't make major leaps. I have sufficient trust in Spyderco's experience with sharpeners and their ceramic processing though, that I would want to try one for myself, before I am ready to believe that it actually does beat the Sharpmaker. The three different grits of the Sharpmaker are pretty unique and the UF stones are in my opinion only clearly beaten in the finish they provide by the very fine waterstones and abrasive impregnated leather or felt (strops with 0.5-2 micron polishing compound essentially).

I have and still do berate pull-through sharpeners though. If it is a pull through sharpener, you will never get an edge anywhere near as good as with the Sharpmaker.

So I just did a quick search. Is this the one they are talking about (I wouldn't call that a V-sharpener, I mean the Spyderco kitchen knife sharpener was called V-Galley, but what do I know):
http://www.quickknife.com/s-jiff-s.html
?
If so, I flat-out refuse to believe that this thing is getting anywere close to the results the Sharpmaker achieves, on several different grounds.
A) pullthough sharpeners will ripple the edge, even if you manage a decent edge, it will be a weak one. Leonard Lee has shown that they can even leave micro fractures in the edge!
B). You are tearing material of to generate the edge, the result is ragged and stressed and therefore, again, weak. It may cut for a while just like an edge right of a 220 stone (though personally I would prefer the 220 stone, god knows what you are doing to the material when scraping of the metal!), but will not come close to the sharpness nor the cleanliness of cut that an abrasive (any abrasive) sharpener will provide...let alone to what the Sharpmaker will produce when your typical knife freak obsesses a whole Sunday over one knife to cut free hanging toilet paper with it (sorry WadeF, I just called you a freak...no matter, I gladly join your company :D)

Having said that, this Smith sharpener seems to be better than most of its kind and probably deserves an honerable mention. The only time when pull through sharpeners will indeed give a better result than abrasive sharpeners will be on very poor and soft steel, like cheap steak and kitchen knives. On any steel that is so soft and rubbery that it will bend out of the way on a stone and will leave a burr that is impossible to manage they will truely excel. And with such a steel you don't have to worry about microfractures either.

Personally, I wouldn't let this thing anywere near my knives. But then again, the knife with the worst steel that I own are a couple of Bucks with 420HC.

The only thing that the Sharpmaker is really not very good at IMHO, is reprofiling. Even with the diamond rods I like to lean into the abrasive a bit more (during the reprofileing, for the final hone you need a light touch) than I am able to do on the uprights. It actually works pretty well, when you put the grays flat into the bottom of the base and use it just like a benchstone. You still need to clean them pretty frequently and the base is pretty slippery, too.

Sorry for the long post. Maybe, I should go now and read the article :o .

[HoB]

Whenever I say something against the Sharpmaker, then this always goes along the lines as Sal response to a thread about the Sharpmaker taking out all fun in sharpening, because it is so easy to use:


Sal Glesser
Moderator Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Golden, CO, USA
Posts: 5,863

Hi Ted, it's kinda like fast food vs a nice dinner.

When I want to "play" with an edge, I have many mediums from many parts of the world. I labor over each stroke, watch the edge "grow" with my lupe, even a strop with abrasives.....great fun.

Sometimes I just want to sharpen the knife to use it.

sal

I disagree (respectfully) with VW about the ease of use of the sharpmaker. Mine is always handy. In comparison to my admittedly beloved benchstones: "Pull out the entire crate of benchstones from under bed, clear room near the sink, soak stones, set stones up, check for trueness, grab angle gauge, sharpen, clean of excess water and try not to flood the kitchen, dry stones, clean of knife, flush out pivot area, put stones back into crate, carry crate back upstairs...... no comparison which one is easier.

[Ted]

Whenever I say something against the Sharpmaker, then this always goes along the lines as Sal response to a thread about the Sharpmaker taking out all fun in sharpening, because it is so easy to use:


Sal Glesser
Moderator Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Golden, CO, USA
Posts: 5,863

Hi Ted, it's kinda like fast food vs a nice dinner.

When I want to "play" with an edge, I have many mediums from many parts of the world. I labor over each stroke, watch the edge "grow" with my lupe, even a strop with abrasives.....great fun.

Sometimes I just want to sharpen the knife to use it.

sal

...

HoB, do you have a link to that post? I'm curious to what I asked or said there. Must have been sometime ago.

Edit: forget it - noticed on the post count of Sal it must have been on BFC - and the reply was to another Ted, not me. ;)

[Civilian]

Anybody have the article scanned? That would be nice. I was hoping Sal would've posted by now.

[ghostrider]

Having problems with my scanner right now so sorry, no scan.

I was using the term incorrectly. I was using the term "V" sharpener for a pull through, and I used Crock Stick as a term for the "V". Sorry about the confusion.

The Smith's does look like a Pull Through, and the article didn't give much in the way of explination. I did go to thier web site and get a better description below. Funny to note that the author said the following about the Sharpmaker yet still only gave it a 7 for the Edge Production category.


"Sharpening is flawless and the resulting bevel is consistent along the entire length of the edge."
Here's a link.

http://smithabrasives.com/sa/

The description on the web site is better than in the article. It sort of sounds like a combination "Pull Through" and "V" type sharpener.


"Smith's Sure-Sharp Two-Stage Knife Sharpening System features a mechanical design innovation that allows two ceramic rods to automatically separate as you push down and pull your knife through the rods."

Picture is taken from Smith's web site linked above.

[smcfalls13]

"Smith's Sure-Sharp Two-Stage Knife Sharpening System features a mechanical design innovation that allows two ceramic rods to automatically separate as you push down and pull your knife through the rods."

Would allowing the rods to move during sharpening change the edge angle? :confused:

[HoB]

must have been on BFC - and the reply was to another Ted, not me. ;)

Yes, and yes! ;) Sorry should have made this more clear :o .

[HoB]

Well that sounds a bit like this one:
http://storm.voltz.net/~razoredgesystems.com/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=48&osCsid=9647f26d3ce4bfd0c40bd6f3392402ab

Much better than the pull through. It won't ripple the edge and it will not tear off the steel but abrade it, if I understand it right. Whether it will get better results than the Sharpmaker, I can not say. I haven't tried it, but I kind of doubt it. If you are decent with holding the blade vertical, it shouldn't make much of a difference and you don't get the different grades of abrasive that you get with the Sharpmaker.