Always Use Protection!

[Jimd]

The vests we were issued for wear in the prison are well over five years old, which is their expiration date. After that, the kevlar breaks down and is less effective.

Per our new union contract, we must mandatorily wear our protective "stab" vests, as long as they're within the warranty period (5 yrs.).

As such, the dept. has chosen three different vests that they're going to test at our training academy. And guess who one of the lunatics is that they've asked to test and evaluate these vests? Yep, it's ME! :D

From what I understand (details are sketchy yet), we're going to wear and rate the vests for comfort (our prisons get extremely hot in the summer). I also understand we'll get to tear up some of the vests with knives. Gosh, where am I going to get knives??? :p

I'll let y'all know more when I know more. But I'm seriously shocked that they asked me to do this.

[CopilotATS-55]

go at them with a hawkbill :D

[ghostrider]

This ought to be good! :D

Looking forward to hearing about this one already.

[spyderknut]

Jim your title made me a little nervous. Something about prisons and using protection. :eek: Looking forward to your vest review. Please don't scare me like that again.

[spd9075]

Jim, that sounds pretty cool. I can't wait to hear the results! I've always wondered what a shank vest could take. This should be good! :D

[SoCal Operator]

Wow! There's cut tests, then there's this. I join the ranks of people who are looking forward to seeing exactly what a quality blade can do to the "real deal". On that note, do they want you to focus on one type of knife (toothbrush shank or Massad Ayoob? Hmmmm.), or are they letting you decide?

[TheKnifeCollector]

Wahhoooooooooooooooo!! That oughta be fun!!

[Lockback]

I also understand we'll get to tear up some of the vests with knives. Gosh, where am I going to get knives??? :p

Jim,

I'm looking forward to your "Spyderco vs. Kevlar" testing. I wonder how the vests will stand up to ZDP?

[rcbalt2]

I hope you get to take pics. I think maybe you should use something besides spyderco's, nothing can stand up against spydercos, Exept Chuck Norris.

[smcfalls13]

Don't use a Spyder to test your vests Jim. You'll never get a good feel for it's defensive capabilities, because Spyders are sharp enough that they might shear right through the Kevlar.(it's been done :eek: )

Make a homemade shank out of a spoon and use that as test. It's more realistic I would think. If one of your inmates get's a hold of a Spyder, you've got problems.

I hope your vests will have plates of some sort in addition to the Kevlar?

[zenheretic]

Oh I hope you have a Kumo...some have said it is just a fancy shiv anyway so I'm interested in its performance.


Scott if Jim's prison is like any other prison in the world, I'm sure they have a whole room full of confiscated prison shanks to choose as testers.

[dialex]

Hi Jim, good luck with the testings. Just like my forespeakers said, don't use a spydie on them. I know even entry level spydies have no problem penetrating those kevlar vests.
OTOH, it could be fun, taking a small knife (like a Ladybug or Chad's Biscuit) and sticking it a couple times in the vest with a mean comment. Sorta "If this little $#it can penetrate that easily, what can I expect from a real knife?" :rolleyes:

[Simon G]

I also understand we'll get to tear up some of the vests with knives. Gosh, where am I going to get knives??? :p

I'll let y'all know more when I know more. But I'm seriously shocked that they asked me to do this.

:D Sometimes and only sometimes, the world of the CO can be rewarding!! :D

360IJN Jim,

Simon.

[DAYWALKER]

Aloha Jimd,

PERFECT timing...blow off some steam brother, but do it safely! ;)

We just had a few CO's transfer from another facility within the state. One guy I found out wears a stab/cut proof vest under his uni as well as cut/poke proof gloves. Many of the CO's laugh at this guy and tease him. However...

I say he's one of the smart ones. I am just amazed that none of the stripers got on his case for wearing "non-facility issued protective gear" yet. :mad:

I am now thinking of investing in the gloves at least, as it is never good to find a used razor dental floss tied to a pencil with your bare hands! :eek: Plus, the next time I use an inmate's chin to cushion my fall during a takedown...that vest might help. :p

Again, be safe brother and God bless! Stay 360IJN always :cool:

[smcfalls13]

I am now thinking of investing in the gloves at least, as it is never good to find a used razor dental floss tied to a pencil with your bare hands! :eek: Plus, the next time I use an inmate's chin to cushion my fall during a takedown...that vest might help. :p

Please do.

I don't want to see any "Guess what I did, slashed myself with a rusty razor" threads from you or Jim, or any other COs here. ;)

No seriously. I see no reason why you guys shouldn't use protection.

[DAYWALKER]

Please do.

I don't want to see any "Guess what I did, slashed myself with a rusty razor" threads from you or Jim, or any other COs here. ;)

No seriously. I see no reason why you guys shouldn't use protection.


Aloha Scott,

Okay...how do I put this nicely...because our administration consists of A-Holes? (Yes, they have that Hole trademarked! :mad: )

IF I were to wear a vest as well as gloves, certain "hater CO's" would rat me out to the LT or Captain...maybe even to the Warden. Our policy states that if it was not issued by the facility, we cannot wear it. Idiots. Here is "their" thinking:

"Well, Chad what if you get beat up, and the inmate uses your vest and gloves? How are we going to restrain him if he's wearing protective gear?"

D'oh!!! :mad:

A Sgt. cut down an inmate a few years back who was found hanging, and they wanted to burn him for it for carrying a Leatherman on his belt because it was not facility issued. The inmate died, but he would have been "deader" by the time someone found the safety cutters...Cripes.

We'll see about the vest and gloves...

God bless and good morning BTW! :)

[smcfalls13]

"Well, Chad what if you get beat up, and the inmate uses your vest and gloves? How are we going to restrain him if he's wearing protective gear?"


Your administrators are morons.(not news to you I'm sure)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those vests and gloves meant to protect against stabs and cuts, and not fists and feet?

Would your administrators send the cavalry in with knives to take the inmate down? I doubt it. The vest would do nothing for the inmate when your back up arrives and kicks him in the head(can you guys do that?)

That's like telling an LEO not to wear a vest, because some perp may try and steal it.

Genius. Sheer genius. ;)

[uhiforgot]

Aloha Scott,

Okay...how do I put this nicely...because our administration consists of A-Holes? (Yes, they have that Hole trademarked! :mad: )

IF I were to wear a vest as well as gloves, certain "hater CO's" would rat me out to the LT or Captain...maybe even to the Warden. Our policy states that if it was not issued by the facility, we cannot wear it. Idiots. Here is "their" thinking:

"Well, Chad what if you get beat up, and the inmate uses your vest and gloves? How are we going to restrain him if he's wearing protective gear?"

D'oh!!! :mad:

A Sgt. cut down an inmate a few years back who was found hanging, and they wanted to burn him for it for carrying a Leatherman on his belt because it was not facility issued. The inmate died, but he would have been "deader" by the time someone found the safety cutters...Cripes.

We'll see about the vest and gloves...

God bless and good morning BTW! :)
Wow! Two things here (in no particular order):

First, I don't EVER remember seeing any :mad: 's in your posts before. You strike me as the kind of guy that always keeps a level head!? Then again, we all have our pet peeves :cool:

Second, I'm amazed that your superiors had the stones to burn one of your fellow CO's for doing the RIGHT THING. When it comes down to life-or-death, (your own life or someone else's) rules may or may not save your life and if they must be broken, so be it!!! Whatever profession you are in, there is one rule I have found that will show itself sooner or later:

"Company policy" and "what actually works" are sometimes two entirely disjoint thoughts.

You chose a job where you put your a** on the line every day in a place where the only people there to notice are the ones that are putting your a** on the line. For this I hold a great deal of respect for you and your fellow CO's. You know what WORKS because you work in that hell-hole, and thus it should be YOUR business, and not the a**-holes (TM) in their comfy leather chairs in the office, as to whether or not to use the vest and gloves!

May God bless you, Knifebrother, and stay safe in there! (and same goes for all other CO's among us!)

-Jeff

[Jimd]

Okay, here's the dealio...
I go out to our academy tomorrow to get measured for the vests. Our dept. is considering vests from three manufacturers, and as I understand it, we'll be measured for vest from each one.

Then, we'll wear each vest for a week to determine its comfort/wearability, and give an evaluation report on each vest. I'm the only representative from my institution that's going.

Unfortunately, I believe I was given some wrong info initially; it doesn't sound as if we'll get to actually stab/slash any vests tomorrow. I'll have some knives along, just in case.

Re. the issue of knives going through Kevlar....ballistic vests can easily be punctured by knives, unless they're also rated for protection against knives. Stab-resistant vests like corrections wear are more efficient for stopping stabs/slashes, but not bullets. You can have both worlds, but only if they're designed for it.

Re. the shanks found in our prison...
You would not believe the wicked blades we've found. Some have been damn close to what you'd buy in a store as far as the edge and points go. Hatchets, machetes...you name it! One machete was made from a lawn mower blade that had been swiped when the prison had a small-engine repair shop inside the wall, and had been ground in the prison's metal shop. It's hefty enough to take an arm off.

I took some pics of this shank display months ago, but haven't gotten the film developed yet. When I do, this will be the first place I post pics.

[smcfalls13]

Re. the shanks found in our prison...
You would not believe the wicked blades we've found. Some have been damn close to what you'd buy in a store as far as the edge and points go. Hatchets, machetes...you name it! One machete was made from a lawn mower blade that had been swiped when the prison had a small-engine repair shop inside the wall, and had been ground in the prison's metal shop. It's hefty enough to take an arm off.

I took some pics of this shank display months ago, but haven't gotten the film developed yet. When I do, this will be the first place I post pics.

This needs to go in your book as well Jim. Heck this could be it's own chapter.

[zenheretic]

As long as we are on the topic, I've toured two prisons (both retired prisons) One the old Montana prison, and two an old prison in Melbourne Austrailia...something they both had in common was a room was dozens of examples of shanks/weapons and other contraband...usually radios and cooking equipment. All very ingenious, lethal, and scary. Jim get back to work on that book...assuming it is well edited (no offense we almost all need to be edited) it would stand to be a great book...likely sell well for other prisons for training new recruits, maybe a lot of other LEO types, and the general public. Heck that bizarre true to life stuff is just the sort of thing Oprah loves in her book club. You get her seal of approval and you are a made man! (just needs a lot of touchy feely "how I waded through the sewers of man and came out a better man" type stuff.

[Jimd]

LOL, this stuff will most assuredly be included in my memoirs! Wait til you guys see the pics of all the weapons, you'll crap yourselves! I've seen some of them used, literally, as well.

It's honestly amazing, the level of inventiveness and ingenuity that I've seen crooks employ when fashioning weapons and other improvised gadgets.

Interesting concept on the Oprah angle....and I really have waded through a river of human feces (hell, it's still dripping off me!!), and came out a.....ahem....a better...man.

[Jonny8642]

Hey Jim,
I am sure you've seen some crazy weapons made by inmates. The craziest thing I saw was on mythbusters were in the weapons section in the museum of the prison. There was a semi automatic 9 mm gun made entirely made out of plumbing parts :eek:, and a spear made out of a broom stick and foam cup used for the spear head. I hope you guys don't get that crazy of weapons, do you?

[zackerty]

Jim, I used to make Level Three Vests from Kevlar 49...
A sharp SAK would walk thru the vest in an extremely hard under or over hand thrust, enough to puncture the skin and annoy you more.
A single layer of 0.060 Kydex worn in front of the vests would slow down most knives that they would only get through the first three to four layers on the vest, which had 22 layres...
I would have the person who wore the vest, put it on, and I would heat mould the Kydex on the front profile, and then make a pocket for the exact shape...
0.090 Kydex is twice as good, and only the first 2 mm of a knife would get through, nothing to worry about.

[Echo63]

i was going to post about testing vests, but as you probably wont be testing the vests i wont bother, just take care when your behind the walls,

i am glad to see that you and your fellow CO's are getting vests and i agree with the post above mine about the kydex, we use it for sheaths (the idea of which is to keep the sharp bits from poking into you) so it should work, at least to slow an inmates weapon down and allow the vest to work better.

oh and remember a vest doesnt cover your arms, legs or neck (ok i know your not stupid just a friendly reminder, stupidity is reserved for the a**holes (tm) that make all the decisions)

[Jimd]

Hey Jim,
I am sure you've seen some crazy weapons made by inmates. The craziest thing I saw was on mythbusters were in the weapons section in the museum of the prison. There was a semi automatic 9 mm gun made entirely made out of plumbing parts :eek:, and a spear made out of a broom stick and foam cup used for the spear head. I hope you guys don't get that crazy of weapons, do you?

We've had inmates with Remington 870 12-guages and various pistols. It happened back in the mid-'80's during an attempted escape and hostage crisis.