For those into lanyards...

[peacefuljeffrey]

I was just over at EDCforums (http://www.edcforums.com) and found a thread about "wish lists." One guy mentioned "a lanyard from knotsmith.com" and linked to this (http://www.knotsmith.com) and I could barely believe my eyes.

Kinda puts me and a lot of others (who nonetheless do some pretty nice work) to shame!

Enjoy anyway! :)


-Jeffrey

[Dr. Snubnose]

Pretty Nice Jeff.....But I must admit I like the works of some of our most distinquished paracord lanyard makers here much better.....Just my opinion....Doc :D

[smcfalls13]

Pretty Nice Jeff.....But I must admit I like the works of some of our most distinquished paracord lanyard makers here much better.....Just my opinion....Doc :D

That's on opinion I share Doc.

That's nice work, but if I were going to use a lanyard, it would be one of the paracord beauties done by one of the lanyard geniuses here.

[para-force]

Eeek!

Does anyone else think these are a little "steep" as far as lanyards go?

[smcfalls13]

Eeek!

Does anyone else think these are a little "steep" as far as lanyards go?

Actually I didn't even look at the price when I checked them, but now that you mention it...

What the :eek:

[ghostrider]

Eeek!

Does anyone else think these are a little "steep" as far as lanyards go?
I noticed the prices also. I suppose that if you were to desire one like what he is selling, you could always make one yourself, or find someone else to make one. I doubt there are many people who can do such work, and even less who will for a small fee. Personally, if I were to try something like that, and be able to do it at that quality, I'd probably charge quite a bit also. I don't know what kind of materials the hardware is made out of, or how much it costs, so that also figures in.

TBH, I believe that most of us lanyard makers who are selling these things on line arent' charging nearly enough. Think about it. Stormdrane once said that it takes him about 30-40 minutes to make a Square/Round Sennit (and that sounds about right for such a simple configuration). Figure the labor on that at $10/hour comes to $5-$7 (just for labor alone, and the labor should be more than $10 since IMHO it is skilled labor). That doesn't include materials, and the time spent chasing them down. The most I've seen someone charge for one is $5, and that includes shipping, or delivery confirmation. Then there is also what is known in retail as "shrinkage", as well as stocking overhead. Truth is, if I were to run it like a business, I'd report a loss every year just based on labor alone.

Have you ever seen the picture he posted of his fingers? They are pretty chewed up from tying lanyards. He posted a pic of them in Doc's thread once. Think of it this way; it isn't just a lanyard, it's functional artwork, and art isn't cheap.

I took a look at some of the stuff the Knottsmith is doing, and some of it can be quite time consuming. He is also using kangaroo twine, and I can't imagine what that cost is.

Would I pay that much for one of his lanyards? No, but then I can't afford one either. If someone were to ask me to make one, I truly can't say that the price would be all that much cheaper if I could do it. That's why I haven't even bothered trying some stuff. I recently made a duck lure lanyard, and it probably would have taken about 1-2 hours if I hadn't been reading the forum at the same time, but used over 43 feet of para cord :eek: . I recently posted a pic of a Mini-JFBF with a Turk's Head (which looks to be a far less complex version of what he's doing), and it was a pain.

Do I think his stuff is worth his asking price? It really doesn't matter. If he can get buyers for those prices, then it sounds like the price is fair. If someone just wants a simple lanyard made out of a piece of paracord, they don't need him. Again, this stuff is more or less "functional artwork".

[peacefuljeffrey]

If I were going to go into using kangaroo hide, I'd probably go straight for making bullwhips, which are much cooler than lanyards (and about as necessary :D ). I bought a book on making whips, but apart from the complexity of the projects (I am just not ready to approach that) without the materials, you can't even start a project like that. I just don't feel like ordering a bunch of kangaroo lace, and don't even know where to obtain it or how much I'd have to spend.

I respect the guy's art, though, tremendously. That is some serious skill and knowledge and expert detail he's exhibiting.

Ghostrider, you're probably right that he's not charging an unreasonable amount for that stuff. He may have to do finishing work on the leather before he can even use it (or after). And as you are well familiar with plaiting and braiding, you know it's not the easiest thing to do, the more complex it is. Sometimes it can be plain frustrating.

Smith's work has a very professional, finished look to it. I'm not about to spend $300 for a lanyard, but that's not to say they are not worth $300 when all factors are considered.

Hell, I just want to be able to do stuff that good! :)

-Jeffrey

[ghostrider]

Back in April, I met a guy at a knife show who made one of those whips out of para cord. Pretty cool :cool: .

[Vtella]

Hi Guys

New to the forum. Found it by accident when I was looking at my web page stats.

Now about those lanyards you've been talking about. Seeing that I work exclusively with Roo hide I think I can give you guys some insight about the pricing.

First, not sure you are aware of this but roo hide is now $8.55 per sqft. Also because it is so pricey you really don't ever want to buy pre-cut laces you'll get ripped off. It's better to cut the laces by hand from a hide. As for the work involved it takes a lot longer to make these things using roo hide that it does using para cord. Here's why, first you have to cut the laces then you have to strip them to make the thickness consistent. Then you have to bevel the edges for the entire length of the lace on at least two edges. After that you can do the plaiting. Aprox. time for all this including the plaiting about 1 hr. The knots this guy is using take at least 15 to 20 min. for each of the knots that have only two different color stripes in them. The knots that have five or six different color stripes in them can take up-to 45 min. each. The one big knot he shows on his lanyard with the compass is called a heel knot and that one given the size of the laces and the time it takes to build up the foundation could take up to two hours to complete. So my guess would be that for one of his simple lanyard with just three knots it would take him a minimum if 2 hrs. to make.

I've been plaiting roo hide for a many years now making whips I never got into lanyard cus it's not worth it given the time factor and what they will sell for.

All the best
Victor
www.snakewhip.com

[smcfalls13]

Welcome to the forum Victor :cool:

Thanks for that information, didn't think the materials would cost THAT much. It definitely explains the high price though.

[ghostrider]

Thanks for the info Victor. I had a feeling that roo hide would be expensive.

Also, thanks for the site link. If you look aroud here you actually see that we have your tutorial for the pineapple knot listed.

P.S.

Welcome to the forum.

[J Smith]

I can say that the price would be worth it.I sell the skull lanyards I make for 9.00 each shipped.I have been told be a couple people that that price seems high but when you look at the cost of the skulls,cord,top bead,shipping,pay pal fee,shipping supplies,labor and driveing to the PO I really am not makeing hardly anything on them.
I have made some in leather but have stopped putting them up for sell because of the extra time and cost of materials in makeing them.They do take a good bit longer to make and I can't get near what they are worth in effort.
The ones in that link are very advanced stuff and the price reflects it.

[peacefuljeffrey]

J Smith, I looked at the skulls on that link you provided once, and was suprised to find that they cost something like $5! You are giving away your art, dude. You really should be charging more!


Victor, it's awesome to have you here! Welcome! :)

-Jeffrey

[ghostrider]

J Smith, I looked at the skulls on that link you provided once, and was suprised to find that they cost something like $5! You are giving away your art, dude. You really should be charging more!


Victor, it's awesome to have you here! Welcome! :)

-Jeffrey
That was the point that I was making in my first post. Most of us who do sell this stuff are not making money on it.

[peacefuljeffrey]

I too have spent far more on my materials than I have ever taken in cumulatively from stuff I sold here or there. But I did not really get into it as an income venture, as I'm sure you did not either.

-Jeffrey

[ghostrider]

I too have spent far more on my materials than I have ever taken in cumulatively from stuff I sold here or there. But I did not really get into it as an income venture, as I'm sure you did not either.

-Jeffrey
You’re absolutely right. I started doing it for fun (and still do), and I’m sure some of the others have also. Selling it is a good way to share with others, while supporting the hobby.

[peacefuljeffrey]

Tonight at work I made a Jug Sling for my bottle of water. Are you familiar with that one? It's pretty cool. The book from which I learned it said that it was known to the Romans, back when they used stone jugs!

here's a link (http://www.scoutxing.com/knots/jug_sling/jug_sling.htm)


-Jeffrey

[ghostrider]

I think I remember seeing that somewhere before. My water bottle goes in my pack.

[peacefuljeffrey]

Pfft! I never said I needed to tie the thing onto my water bottle! :D


-Jeffrey

[Vtella]

Hi Guys
I've been looking at the lanyards some have posted on this forum.
Interesting ... I have a suggestion why not try using multiple turks heads and ring knots down the lanyard? Sorta like they use on braided horse reins.

I'll see if I can make one up and take a picture of it to show you guys.
Al the best
Victor

[ghostrider]

Hi Guys
I've been looking at the lanyards some have posted on this forum.
Interesting ... I have a suggestion why not try using multiple turks heads and ring knots down the lanyard? Sorta like they use on braided horse reins.

I'll see if I can make one up and take a picture of it to show you guys.
Al the best
Victor
I can't speak for others, but personally, I just haven't gotten there yet. I've recently been looking into Turk's Heads, but haven't found a lot in the way of tutorials on line. Ring Knots were totally off my radar.

It does sound like a good idea though, and I look forward to seeing your examples. :)

[J Smith]

The skulls I posted in that link are silver,the price of them climbed to high to use.I was chargeing 12.00 each when I was useing them but if I when back to them with the price of them now I would have to charge about 18.00 each for them.
The ones I am useing now are pewter,still a little on the high side and hard to get.

[Vtella]

OK Guys
I just spent the last hour and a half making this lanyard example to illustrate what I was talking about. It could be done a lot cleaner but I was in a hurry and have a ton of other work to do. FYI if I where to sell something like this it would cost from $19. - $25.

A tutorial on the 4 part 5 bight turks head knots along with how to do the interweave can be found here. http://www.snakewhip.com/pineappleknot/pa.php.
The interweave for a 4 part 5 bight THK as opposed to a 7 part 6 bight THK is just a matter of reducing the number of times you go around from two to one. Everything else is pretty much the same. The long knot is just a matter of starting off by going around twice as opposed to once. Sorry I don't have a tutorial on the spanish ring knot. But there are plenty of places to find one. It's the easest of the three to do.

All the best
Victor
www.snakewhip.com

[peacefuljeffrey]

I'll see if I can make one up and take a picture of it to show you guys.

Victor


Heh -- like there's a question of you being able to make one up! LOL! :)

Probably gonna inspire me to take all my paracord and just melt it into a huge pile of slag! :p


edit:
Like I said... :( How can I compete with that?!

Don't worry, the gun is not to my temple just yet. It's just that I look at that project and can't begin to understand how you put those knots there.

For one thing, I don't know if those are tied integrally with the cords of the lanyard, or if they are tied as a wrap made around the core cords, of separately cut strands.

The most complex Turk's Head I know how to make is a 3 lead 16 bight (I have one atop my car's steering wheel). I know 3L 4B; 4L 5B; I know how to increase a 3L over and over (instructions in one of Geoffrey Budworth's books); I have done a 5L 4B (but always forget it); but I do not know how to easily shift from one type to another using some sort of formula or easy pattern. That long THK you put on the lanyard baffles me. I'd love it if you went into detail about how you did it. Very attractive work! :)


-Jeffrey

[peacefuljeffrey]

Victor, thank you very much for the Pineapple Knot tutorial; it's a bit too ambitious for me, though, at this point. I guess I've dragged my feet about it, but I have been stalled out at being able to tie in-the-hand Turk's Heads (except the 3L 16B) for years now -- since about '98! I can do simple ones all day long, but that Pineapple blows me away, makes me wanna run and hide.

May I ask how you got to learn these things? I know you say that you've been doing them a long time, but you don't look old enough for it to have been very long! Were you fortunate enough to be able to be taught them by a person, or did you have to learn from books and stuff like I have had to do? That's my cop-out excuse for not doing work like yours, although I think I might have it in me with more development: it's so freakin' hard to learn if you don't have a Master showing you! :(


The think that amazes me is that human minds ever even came up with things this complex. How on earth did the first guy who ever did it figure out how to weave a second Turk's Head into the larger one like you do in the Pineapple Knot?! :eek:


-Jeffrey

[ghostrider]

Victor,
Thanks for taking your time for making that and then posting the pic. Also for the tutorial. I tried doing the Pineapple Knot off your tutorial a couple months back but didn't reallly have the time to go at it properly at that time. I keep telling myself "one of these days" :rolleyes: :o . I've been gradually working into THK's but still don'e understand all the methodology of them. Probably because I usually skip the basics anb go straight to the pictorials :o .

[peacefuljeffrey]

My own feeling is that one can learn a Turk's Head by rote, or one can learn Turk's Head Theory...

I guess I've learned them by wrote, with only a smidge of theory. The theory I know is very basic, consisting of the ability (barely) to take a 3L 4B and increase it, but the way I learned it, the increase happens by like one increment in both the L and B. I would not say that I have the control to be able to make "any of the possible" Turk's Heads, by any means.

Ghostrider, have you seen those charts that you're supposed to be able to wrap around a cylinder, that show you exactly what crosses you are supposed to make? I don't know how easy they are to use. I've never made an attempt at it. Like much in the knot world, it's too daunting, especially for a guy attempting it without someone there to guide him in its use. Imagine a kid in auto shop who is told to overhaul an engine with only a manual, and no teacher there. :( Only the "savants" are gonna be able to do that.

-Jeffrey

[ghostrider]

Ghostrider, have you seen those charts that you're supposed to be able to wrap around a cylinder, that show you exactly what crosses you are supposed to make? I don't know how easy they are to use. I've never made an attempt at it. Like much in the knot world, it's too daunting, especially for a guy attempting it without someone there to guide him in its use. Imagine a kid in auto shop who is told to overhaul an engine with only a manual, and no teacher there. :( Only the "savants" are gonna be able to do that.

-Jeffrey
Never even heard of them untill now. :p :D

Ill I've got is the net and a couple books. One of the books is The Ultimate Encylclopedia of Knots & Ropework, By Geoffrey Budworth; the other is The Handbook of Knots, by Maria Costantino.

[peacefuljeffrey]

Ghostrider (and anyone else),

If your interest is in knots in general, and not just lanyard-style ones and Turk's Heads, here are a few of my recommendations for knot books to get.

- First on the list is the most expensive: The Ashley Book of Knots.
Many call it "the knot-tyer's bible," as it is by FAR the most complete compendium of knot illustrations in the world. The only problem is, it is a bit short on directions for tying. Many of the more modern books are better for that. (I can't speak on the ancient knot texts, as I have never seen them.) The Ashley book is copyright 1944 by Clifford W. Ashley. It's about 1.5" thick and contains appx. 3900 knots. I recommend it since it is "the bible," but not as an instructive text, really. It's a perfunctory, and at >$60, some are discouraged from purchasing it. I just think that any knot devotee should own a copy.

- The Complete Book of Decorative Knots by Geoffrey Budworth
Budworth wrote amendments to my edition of Ashley, as a matter of fact. He is a founder of the International Guild of Knot Tyers (they're online too), and writes very very good knot books. TCBODK has a "Univeral Turk's Head Chart" but it's the one I mentioned that I have never tried to use.

- The Handbook of Knots by Des Pawson
Very nicely produced small book with good, utilitarian knots and very clear instructions and photos. Pawson is one of my favorites.

Budworth is quite prolific, and has a bunch of other titles. I have "The Complete Book of Fishing Knots" and "The Complete Book of Knots" (the latter one's most general, as indicated by its title).

There are really hundreds of knot books available, probably. Some get very very specialized, like for fishing, rigging, whip-making, net-making... (Nets are fascinating. I learned to make a net hammock, and did so a few years ago. I completed it, but had miscalculated the width and it was not usable. Many hours of work down the drain. I attempted a second one, and had the same problem, just to a lesser degree. I have not made another attempt since. :( )

-Jeffrey

[Vtella]

Victor, thank you very much for the Pineapple Knot tutorial; it's a bit too ambitious for me, though, at this point. I guess I've dragged my feet about it, but I have been stalled out at being able to tie in-the-hand Turk's Heads (except the 3L 16B) for years now -- since about '98! I can do simple ones all day long, but that Pineapple blows me away, makes me wanna run and hide.

May I ask how you got to learn these things? I know you say that you've been doing them a long time, but you don't look old enough for it to have been very long! Were you fortunate enough to be able to be taught them by a person, or did you have to learn from books and stuff like I have had to do? That's my cop-out excuse for not doing work like yours, although I think I might have it in me with more development: it's so freakin' hard to learn if you don't have a Master showing you! :(


The think that amazes me is that human minds ever even came up with things this complex. How on earth did the first guy who ever did it figure out how to weave a second Turk's Head into the larger one like you do in the Pineapple Knot?! :eek:


-Jeffrey


Hi Jeffrey

Lets see I didn't have anyone to teach me I am completely self taught. I didn't even have a book until I had been doing it for about 4 years. I'v never sat down with another braider before to talk and learn. FYI I have been doing this for about 13 years now. As for the pineapple knot if you just go through the tutorial step by step you will be able to do it. Believe me if I can do it anyone can. Most of these knots where originally just worked out by people with too much time on their hands. :-) Thats exacly how I learned to do the long knot on the lanyard. I just sat there and goofed with it until I figured it out. By the way all of this stuff can be done with para cord.

All the best
Victor

[ghostrider]

Hi Jeffrey

Lets see I didn't have anyone to teach me I am completely self taught. I didn't even have a book until I had been doing it for about 4 years. I'v never sat down with another braider before to talk and learn. FYI I have been doing this for about 13 years now. As for the pineapple knot if you just go through the tutorial step by step you will be able to do it. Believe me if I can do it anyone can. Most of these knots where originally just worked out by people with too much time on their hands. :-) Thats exacly how I learned to do the long knot on the lanyard. I just sat there and goofed with it until I figured it out. By the way all of this stuff can be done with para cord.

All the best
VictorI've seen it done with para cord. One of the USN guys had a para cord whip at the Wolverine Knife Show. It's looked pretty cool. :D

[JaM]

Sorry for hijacking, but... what CAN you do with a whip, apart from looking menacing and "cracking" the thing ? I dont want to be rude, but... what are these used for ? Cattle ?
I was (and probably still am) a big Indiana Jones fan, so I wouldnt mind a hat, holster + whip on the wall, but am I correct that there are also competitions with these ? :confused:
They look very nice though.

[peacefuljeffrey]

Okay, somehow I've got to let this information settle in my head, that Victor just figured out how to tie stuff like this. That kinda blows me away. :eek:

I can't imagine learning these kinds of braids and Turk's Heads by trial and error, sitting there with a bunch of cord.


-Jeffrey

[Vtella]

Sorry for hijacking, but... what CAN you do with a whip, apart from looking menacing and "cracking" the thing ? I dont want to be rude, but... what are these used for ? Cattle ?
I was (and probably still am) a big Indiana Jones fan, so I wouldnt mind a hat, holster + whip on the wall, but am I correct that there are also competitions with these ? :confused:
They look very nice though.

Hay Jam

Well first off whips like bullwhips, snakewhips and signal or dog whips are used and where designed for no other reason but to make noise to move livestock. It's a whole lot cheaper to crack a whip than it is to shoot a gun every time you want to move a bull. Yes they are still used all over the world for that very reason. You are correct. there are competitions for whip cracking. There are contests for accuracy. There are also contests where they do some very impressive trick cracking routines with two whips one in each hand. In fact this is very big in Australia so much that they are trying to get this sport into the Olympics. Not to mention the western enthusiasts. Also whips are big in the movies. Lastly there is a very large underworld of perverts that use whips for SM practices. I sell them all over the world from China to Italy. I haven't even touched on the Equestrian aspect. I have personally made equestrian whips for the Queen of England.

Hope this anwers your questions.

All the best
Victor

[Vtella]

Okay, somehow I've got to let this information settle in my head, that Victor just figured out how to tie stuff like this. That kinda blows me away. :eek:

I can't imagine learning these kinds of braids and Turk's Heads by trial and error, sitting there with a bunch of cord.


-Jeffrey

Jeffrey DUDE!
it aint rocket surgery.
Victor

[peacefuljeffrey]

Come on, Vic, you have to admit that such Turk's Heads as the Pineapple Knot are a bit more than just something you tinker around with and intuit!.

I suppose that I could do it if I followed the schematic step-by-step, but I prefer to know the theory behinds stuff instead of doing it by rote or by mechanical copycatting and imitation.

But all that aside, I just could not see myself sitting down and plain figuring out how to tie Turk's Heads, especially not complex ones!

But you're saying that's exactly what you did, to the point of tying high quality whips before getting any kind of instruction or even book-learning whatsoever?! :eek:

-Jeffrey