Hijacked with knives & boxcutters???

[Gatekeeper]

Just heard a blurb that the "Pentagon aircraft" may have been hijacked with simple knives and boxcutters. What do you suppose this means for us?

[Dav]

I don't pretend to know what the widespread problems will be. But I sure as hell wouldn't take a knife within a 10 mile radius of the airports this month.

Dav

[Gatekeeper]

Then I choose to drive.

[J Smith]

It might be just me but I can not see how three people can possibiy hold fifty or sixty people at bay with letter openers and knives.Looks like several passengers would gang up and try to fight.
I hate to think that most people really are becoming sheep.
As far as knives go the press may have a new bandwagon to climb on....I HOPE NOT!!
Please don't let this offend but if it was me I would try to do something instead of sitting still and taking what they had to give.





J Smith

[Gatekeeper]

JSmith... I couldn't agree more. How many improvised weapons do you suppose were available?

[J Smith]

I could think of alot of things on a jet that could be used.
trays as shilds
make your own knife from a broken bottle or glass
and surely some passengers had pocket knives that passed inspection.
and if i was the hijacker I would hate to see 20 unarmed people rushing twoard me even with me having a knife.



J Smith

[Spin]

From what we have heard from the newsroom here halfway across the world in Hong Kong is that the US aviation officials are already starting to think about a review of carry policy and are thinking of a carry ban.

Don't blame the media, because quite a few journalists (except me) carry knives as we all do. the rest just want to look for a good story.

it would be our worse nightmare if the international aviation authorities decide to move against knives carrying in planes.

[sal]

One might consider the possibility that a few pocketknives on the flights along with some MBC training might have avoided the incident?

sal

[scorpio]

Sal might have a point here,but how do you in a security point of you distiguish between the good guy and the bad.
bare in mind there is no precident of a highjacked plane being used as a guided missile like that! up till now planes were highjacked for hostages and the main thing everyone was concearned was to get it SAFELY to the ground and then negotiate.. if people knew that they have nothing to lose it is very possible that the passengers could do something about it.
after yesterday im sure that any potential terrorist with a knife will not get very far in the plane.
scorpio.

The one feeling I couldn't shake all day was one of helplessness that I wasn't onboard one of those flights, and that if I was, there could have been at least a small bit of hope to avert things from progressing as they did. After seeing the footage over and over, I became more aware that I would have easily sacrificed my life to have averted just one plane. Yes, 3-4+ armed fanatical men who already commited to sacrificing their lives that day would likely dispose of me alone, but had even a handful of passengers been trained and armed, I agree that it would have made a real difference.

I believe current FAA regulations permits 4" blade folders and under(every airline and security checkpoint seem to have their own rules though). I fear air travel might become increasingly hostile to people like us(I carry at least 3 on me EDC) and on flights only one on my person. If I become disarmed by the institutions I'll just be a helpless piece of meat against armed fanatics.

In past wars, the enemy wore uniforms and there were warzones. It seems now the enemy lives and works among our society and has targeted all taxpaying civilians around them. I find it my obligation to be prepared in some small way, I hope you do as well.

Ken

[Tightwad]

As far as knife carry on ANY airplanes that just went up in smoke!! We have now joined the gun owners.
As to what could have happend by a citizen determined to stop a hijacker I think we all saw an act of
heroism in the plane that crashed in Penn. I can stop felling that few folk's told the hijackers "We die
here, we die now. You can't take anymore of my countrymen" but we'll never know for sure. They
may have been able to overcome the basic fear of being badly cut. We all want to be safe but know the
catch 22 is how to do it with out a means to.

[charlie]

I agree with sal proper training and any type of knife could have helped a horrible situation. But i fear the worst that NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO CARRY a knife on board a aircraft of any sort from this point on.
No matter what what size.

[charlie]

I agree with sal proper training and any type of knife could have helped a horrible situation. But i fear the worst that NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO CARRY a knife on board a aircraft of any sort from this point on.
No matter what the size.

[Alex]

Is it really the worst that you may no longer be permitted to carry you knife on an airplane? Their prohibition on flights will in my opinion remove at least one potential weapon. I too have always viewed a folding penknife as a tool and i well understand peoples reactions to this threat to their abilty to lawfully carry. Is it likely though that if the rumour scenario about being armed with knives IS true, would these terrorists have been lawfully carrying aswell? unfortunately i think they would have been.

I have been sickened by these acts. I give my deepest sympathy to all those who have been affected by it, directly and indirectly, and commend those who are responding to assist, and to those who have died doing so.

[Hannibal]

So, I suppose you do not want to hear my oppinion on all this?

Hannibal Lecter, M.D.

[Allen E. Treat]

To ALL ;
VERY unfortunate forumites ; I just hope our "lawmakers" don't decide to
ban knives like they did "assault weapons". Kinda makes you wonder.

OUN = "Death to tyrants" ( in Ukarainian )

or, in OUR case....

"Death to terrorists"


Just a thought.

A.E.T.

[thorin hammer]

I wonder how long it will take untill all sharp objects, and glass, will be ban from fligh? Then will it come down to a "prison" plane that busses people from one airport to the next.
A quote from first class: "You mean I don't HAVE to wear the handcuffs?"

I'm sorry but I am just a bit angry at our rignts being stomped on. I do know that I have a right to defend myself. Maybe if everyone on the plain were required to carry a 3-4" knife the highjackers would have though twice?
Besides that you know that if they, the bad people, try hard enough they will still get knives and such on the plain.

Some laws permit, what honor dose not.

[chambers]

Means the knife community just got kicked in the balls. I've heard that ALL knives will be banned from now on (on board planes) the question now is for those of you who fly are you willing to risk what will no doubt be considerable retrobution for carrying your knife on board for personal protection?
Side note: didn't we ban hannibal? just wondering

oxxxxxx{------------------------

[Spin]

Well except knives for self defence purpose people could still carry other weapons in disguise. But I still get my peace of mind with at least one folder with me on any flight.

A friend of mine did say something interesting yesterday, that if knives are banned people would start taking other things that could easily be adopted as weapons.

He said for example, a buggy (of course you have to have a kid with you in that case) could yield at least two to three modified short spears (from the frame, sharpened in advance) which would be extremely effective in drawing blood from human body.

banning knives carrying would only encourage people start thinking of things like this...

[john row]

Christopher is right. New FAA regs NO KNIVES OF ANY TYPE ONBOARD.
John
GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

[Rebeltruce]

I've heard that the flight crews on the aircrafts were attacked first. In some cases they were killed. Witnessing someone getting thier throats cut with a box opener, will take allot of the fight out of anyone, especially the untrained. Thank god for the hero's who were able to stop the plane that crashed in Pa. God bless those who have died.

Truce

[RYAN]

Hey everybody, I'm the new guy up at sfo and I just wanted to say I am convinced that one well trained person and a blade could have prevented the horrible acts that took place on Tuesday. Now the FAA is putting a ban on all knives, thus making everyone defenseless if the same situation arises again.

[Sheeple]

C'mon you guys are starting to sound like a bunch of rambowannabedorks. I feel plenty safe now with the Delta Force commandos on board (before they train and certify our new Sky Marshals). So put your little Walter Mitty Toshiro Mifune blade fantasies out of your heads folks - the real professionals are in charge now.

[Gatekeeper]

Sheeple,
I am simply concerned about my right to carry a pocket knife.
The Gatekeeper

[sal]

H Scorpio, Alex & Ryan. Welcome to the Spyderco forum. 'Tis a shame the subject that we discuss. I'm sure future discussions will be more fun.

I'm sure that the ban on flying with knives will be inconvenient to most of us. I don't think that making knives against the law to fly with will stop terrorists. I believe that terrorism is against the law and it didn't stop them.

sal

sheeple,
I'm hoping your post was to be lighthearted or joking, but my statements earlier on this post were serious, and I personally have no fantasies or delusions of heroism, I've told people in the past I train only for 'my' self preservation and no one elses, but to know those situations were close quarter blade oriented probably makes everyone who trains in MBC wonder 'what if' I were there. Making sense?
By the way, there 'are' civilians who train specifically much more for blade oriented close encounters than alot of Military and Law enforcement personel.
Seeing as how we're now focusing highly on aircraft, the danger will most likely redirect to some area(s) we are all overlooking. Therefore, any intelligent person would conclude that it could be almost anywhere in any form, are you prepared to do something, anything, when Delta force and the police are somewhere else and it's just you among a bunch of civilians with minutes left? I don't know if I am, so I train more, and far more seriously now.

Feel free to email me if you strongly disagree on this, so we can avoid digressing too much from the general subject.

Thanks,
Ken

[Michael Janich]

Dear Ken:

Well said. Thank you.

I guess the best way to understand how effective police intervention would be if you were attacked would be to frequently stop and look around for a law enforcement officer. Do this on the street, in a mall, or anywhere else you might be. Odds are you will quickly find yourself feeling very alone.

This is not intended to be a criticism of law enforcement officers at all. The simple fact is that there are far more of us than there are of them. Despite their best efforts, they cannot be everywhere at once.

Your comment that many civilians train harder in MBC and empty-hand defenses against weapons is also absolutely correct. And the more our right to carry weapons is restricted, the more vulnerable we will become and the harder we will have to practice.

I've lived overseas and worked extensively in areas where Americans were actively targeted for violence. On many occasions I also had to trust armed security personnel with my personal safety. However, I never stopped thinking about what I would do to protect my own safety if their skills failed and I never went anywhere without a weapon of some sort. Self-protection (I prefer this to the term "self-defense," which implies that you let the other guy attack before you act) training is not a Walter Mitty fantasy or a Rambo wannabe fantasy. It is a responsible intellectual and physical expression of basic human survival instincts. The skills of self-protection are exactly like any other emergency or survival skills, including first aid, CPR, building a campfire, and using a map and compass. Those who willingly ignore their survival instincts and leave everything to the authorities are, quite frankly, less prepared to survive in today's world. If that is there choice, so be it. But don't begrudge the prepared folks their choice.

mike j

[Sheeple]

Train on folks, but you can leave out the aircraft cabin scenario as of Tuesday, 9/11/01. +

[Michael Janich]

Dear Sheeple:

You bank on the Sky Marshall, I'll bank on the Sky Marshall AND my own abilities.

By the way, if you take your spare tire out of your car you can improve your gas mileage. After all, you'll never really get a flat...

mike j

[Spin]

As people rely more on the civil society and modernity these day, they start lossing their basic survival skills which once had been a norm for every adult and child alike. As well as skills, people tend to lose their mental ability to take charge of their own lives, their own safety and be master of their own house. Often we hear that "well that's a matter for the police to sort out" or "the Government would take care of that".

Have we forgotten that as human being we have to provide for our own safety among other things in life? Its good that the authorities are also looking after that, but what they are doing is just a respond to address a collective need. what protection we got from higher up could not stop people defending themselves and should not take away that right.

After seeing the terrorist attack on the WTC halfway across the world here, I have thought of taking some parachute lessons and keep one in my office just in case i have to jump down from my 16th floor in a fire. I would not want to wait for a chopper to rescue me in circumstances like that of the WTC.

[Ken A.]

I am concerned about a total ban on knives on aircraft. Usually the passengers outnumber the hijackers, and the hijackers may carry plastic or ceramic knives that are difficult to detect by conventional means. Therefore, a ban will certainly disarm an honest passenger. Only armed plainclothes police and perhaps supplementing at least one flight crew member with proper training and a firearm will help. These countermeasures are not in effect yet, but the knife ban is. Only the hijackers will be armed with non ferrous weapons- with helpless passengers! This rings of government committee thinking- bearing products of stupidity! I do a lot of flying and don't feel good about being a sitting duck.

[Ken A.]

I am concerned about a total ban on knives on aircraft. Usually the passengers outnumber the hijackers, and the hijackers may carry plastic or ceramic knives that are difficult to detect by conventional means. Therefore, a ban will certainly disarm an honest passenger. Only armed plainclothes police and perhaps supplementing at least one flight crew member with proper training and a firearm will help. These countermeasures are not in effect yet, but the knife ban is. Only the hijackers will be armed with non ferrous weapons- with helpless passengers! This rings of government committee thinking- bearing products of stupidity! I do a lot of flying and don't feel good about being a sitting duck.

[sal]

Hi Ken. Welcome to the Spyderco forum.

Perhaps after the fear settles some, the question of knives on planes can be addressed again.

sal

[Jeff/1911]

See what you think of this fellows idea. This link was just sent to me.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/guestcolumnists/anderson09-13-01.htm

Jeff/1911.

[sal]

Thanx Jeff. Interesting read.

sal

[Mancer]

Yeah thanx Jeff, very good article, must say I agree with what he had to say.

Seeya

MaNcEr

It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

[kjellmusic]

Anti-terrorist website: http://killaterrorist.com

[earthworm]

Amen to those who've expressed concern for our right to carry a knife(anywhere;not just on airplanes)& to those who stick-up for the old Boy Scout motto.As I ask when teaching survival prepardness classes,"Give me a good reason NOT to keep a little food,etc on hand & learn basic skills?"-to date no answer.
Re confronting a terrorist:my attitude is that if I'm convinced this SOB is gonna kill me no matter what I do or don't do,f**k it;I'm taking him with me.All he can do is kill me(which he's apparently decided to do anyway) so I want to see that he goes with me.?Would this help in the case of a suicide bomber?-who knows? There's always the chance of killing him before he can detonate,& it it doesn't no loss.

[kjellmusic]

I hope the knife companies are planning some kind of public relations campaign. Spyderco might consider donating a couple of thousand knives to the rescue workers in NYC as a contribution to the effort and also as a way to get the word "knife" out of the proverbial dirt that this situation has suddenly put it in.
If the "knife-intrested" people can organize and begin an education blitz designed to re-teach the usefulness and need for knives as well as show the misconceptions about them (I am sure that there was not one acceptably decent knife used on those planes) while the topic is on everyone's minds, then this could be the chance that the industry has been waiting for to revolutionize the "use" of knives like the "knife" has been revolutionized over the past 2 decades. Balanced discussion makes things better and maybe the muddy knife laws can even be set right.

[yog]

Unfortunatly here in the UK we have had a number of knee-jerk bans in the last couple decades, Balisongs, "combat" knives, most guns (there is now very strict control on buying and owning .22 target pistols, but very little control over buying / owning a shotgun, go figure), as a consiquence the law abiding citizens are all un-armed, but the cases of being robbed at gun point have increased dramatically.

Unfortunate it is my experience that once the ban is in effect it is not overturned or relaxed.

[yog]

An interesting read Jeff.

I would take issue with one point though, the part that implied that the people on 3 of the planes didn't have the balls to fight. There is no telling what happened up there.
It is one thing to fight when you know the terrorist is intent on killing everyone on board, but it is another to risk the lives of everyone aboard (possible bomb)when the orginal intent was to hold the passangers captive just long enough to draw attention to a cause. Did the passangers know which situation they were in ? Unlikely as this type of tactic had not been used before.

I think my mother said it best, even though she is squeemish at the best of times, she commented that if she knew that the hijackers were on a suicide mission and that there were children on board, she would fight tooth and nail even if it meant her own death if it gave the young ones a chance. Proud of you mum.

[yog]

Damn double post

Edited by - yog on 9/15/2001 6:17:34 PM

[riverworld]

Once again, our first reaction to the obvious, and reasonable, inability of the police and military to protect the populace is to disarm that very populace. Spyderco owners, welcome to the world of the licensed handgun carrier.

riverworld

[sal]

Hi Kjellmusic & Riverworld. Welcome to the Spyderco forum.

sal

[Jeff/1911]

Yog,

I also took issue with the articlist's obvious view that the folks in the "other" planes perhaps didn't do enough.

I would NEVER, EVER dare to presume what another should or could have done under those horrendous circumstances.

I believe that likely, these hostages were made to think that this was just a "usual" hijacking where there would ultimately be a controlled landing, demands for money, etc. and that they all had a reasonable chance for survival and a great deal to lose by resisting.

I suppose that never again will people be at all sure of this scenario, in a similar situation.

I did think that the author's idea for a well armed group of passengers was a comforting thought, though. I guess you'd probably then need an airplane with a Kevlar-lined fuselage.

Jeff/1911.

Edited by - Jeff/1911 on 9/16/2001 2:43:03 AM

[Gatekeeper]

I really think you could sell a lot of FRN kubotans with a cool Spyder-logo. (hint) There will most certainly be an increased demand for not-metallic weapons.
The Gatekeeper

There is no spoon!

[Gatekeeper]

sorry double post

There is no spoon!

Edited by - Gatekeeper on 9/16/2001 12:07:12 AM

Edited by - Gatekeeper on 9/16/2001 12:08:06 AM

[Rory Quinn]

When I flew back fom NYC on saturday night, I didn't really expect any trouble, but I couldn't help but be more than alert.

As regards weapons on hand etc. I was sitting two rows from a former member of the Irish army. We had met by chance in the airport and had discussed (idly) hijacking scenarios to kill time (there was a seven hour total delay). If something did happen, I figured I wouldn't have to go it alone and we'd both had some training.

I hadn't been stopped from taking onboard my maglite, which can serve as a fair CQB weapon. Also still had my heavy leather belt with it's buckle, I guess. There were a number of things which could have served as bludgeoning weapons from small fire-extinguishers to oxygen breathers (one of the passengers was ill).

My main concern would have been what if the terrorists bluffed us: i.e 'This is a bomb, we have no knives. But come closer, and we'll blow this plane up.'

Unfortunately, there would have been no option but to call their bluff and risk it. N