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Clay Kesting
10-30-2001, 12:00 AM
G'day Mike,



Thanks for replying to my query about Kubotan manuals so promptly. I must say I did get a surprise when you answered my email to Paladin <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.



I aplologise for this post being a bit off topic, but I'm a real newby in this area and I know I'm among friends here <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>. I'm old enough to carry a cane without raising too many eyebrows and I intend to train with and carry one as my main street defence. My interest in Kubotans was as a back-up. I don't have the MA background for joint locks and such but would like to be able to use a miniMaglite for striking. I have read that James Keating's &quot;Reverse Grip Knife Fighting&quot; video translates well into strikes with a blunt instrument such as a miniMaglite or pen (or the butt of my Chinese Folder<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>). Would this be the way to go or would I be better off with one of Tak Kubota's books or Ted Lucaylucay's tape?



Take care,

Clay



p.s. Anybody else feel free to jump in on this, I know there are a lot of knowledgeable people here.



Don't worry that the world might end tomorrow, in Australia it's tomorrow already.

hy
10-30-2001, 08:40 PM
Clay, stop advertising the fact that you're old enough for a cane!!!!!.....you're still very spry for a senior!!!<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle><img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Michael Janich
10-30-2001, 08:50 PM
Dear Clay:

Once you understand the angles, just about any blade technique can also be performed with a kubotan or hammerfist strike. If you're going to invest in a book or video, I'd suggest getting one on the topic at hand. I'll do some research and see if I can find some specific sources for you. I've heard the Lucaylucay video is pretty good, but have not personally seen it. You can find it on www.cfwenterprises.com. I'll have to find a source for Kubota's books.

There are also some interesting sections on koppo-jutsu in the book &quot;Stick Fighting&quot; by Masaaki Hatsumi and Quintin Chambers. The rest of the book deals with the jo and would fit with your cane-fighting methods.

I'll get back to you in a few days.

Stay safe,

mike j

Clay Kesting
10-30-2001, 09:15 PM
Hy, reckon I'll just have to feign a limp, old football injury you know <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>. It is going to look a bit strange carrying a cane on the days when I ride my daughter's fold-up scooter home from work. See ya Friday, and don't worry I won't embarrass you, I'm coming by push bike not scooter <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle><img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.

Mike, thank you very much for your help. Amazon have Kubota's books including a second-hand copy of Kubotan Keychain. Due to our horrendous exchange rate I'm wary of buying anything which isn't going to give me what I need. I've seen the Masaaki Hatsumi book referred to elsewhere and it may well be what I'm looking for. Basically I'm just an old bloke who's looking for a few straight forward moves to keep himself and his family safe on the street and travelling.

Thanks again,
Clay

Don't worry that the world might end tomorrow, in Australia it's tomorrow already.

Clay Kesting
10-30-2001, 09:49 PM
In searching the net I've come across a book by Bruce Tegner called &quot;Stick Fighting: Self Defense.&quot; It seems to cover the yawara and handstick as well as the cane. Does anybody know anything about it or Mr. Tegner?

Clay

Don't worry that the world might end tomorrow, in Australia it's tomorrow already.

mr. v
10-31-2001, 12:59 PM
Hey, Clay--

I've got &quot;Official Kubotan Techniques&quot; by Kubota and Peters. . .if that's the book you referred to earlier I can offer the following:

This book focuses much more on Law-Enforcement Officer techniques than on self-defense. Most of the material involves using the Kubotan to facilitate 'wrist locks and control holds' in scenarios including handcuffing, come-alongs, vehicle extractions, and others.

There are sequences illustrating a response to punches, a kick, wrist grab, bear hug, full nelson, and rear choke, but it's a small fraction of the overall book.

Hope that's useful. . .
Vince

earthworm
10-31-2001, 02:22 PM
Tegner was one of the first Americans to write seriously about the martial arts back in the 60's.I'd call him sound.?Where'd you find the book-I want a copy!
J.J.Truncale(Pro-Systems,POB 261,Glenview,IL
60025-0261.www.samuraiway.com)has a system specific to the curve-handled cane.I've seen his videos &amp; am impressed.

Clay Kesting
10-31-2001, 10:03 PM
Thanks fellas,

Vince, that's exactly the sort of thing I need to know. I saw that book at Amazon and Shomer-Tec and was wondering if it would fill the bill. Kubotan Keychain is the first book and I'm hoping it might be more self-defence oriented.

Earthworm, I found Tegner's book at Asian World of Self Defence. Here is the link: http://www.awma.com/index.cfm?action=productdetail&amp;product_id=8985. Amazon says it is out of print so it'll be interesting to see if AWMA have it in stock. Perhaps I'd better order it just in case they only have one copy <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.

Clay

Don't worry that the world might end tomorrow, in Australia it's tomorrow already.

earthworm
11-01-2001, 07:55 AM
Clay:I just reread your inital post.Try a Websearch for'police bookshelf'or'massad ayoob'(Police Bookshelf is Mas' company) as they have at least one book on useing the Maglight as a defensive weapon.Paladin Press,Delta Press or Loompanics would also be good sources to check.www.gunvideo.com has a tape'Mastering the Walking Stick'-that's gonna be my Christmas present to me!

hy
11-01-2001, 09:58 AM
Clay...massad ayoob's webpage is www.ayoob.com.....just to save you a bit of trouble.....musnt make the old coot with a cane do any more work than necessary....<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle><img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Clay Kesting
11-02-2001, 06:10 PM
Well, I'm not having much luck <img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>. I tried to order the used copy of &quot;Kubotan Keychain&quot; through Amazon but the seller does not ship internationally. Then I went to order Bruce Tegner's book from AWMA but they want $25 for shipping overseas, too much for a $10 book. I did find some diagrams on Don Rearic's page, which are a good start and the sort of thing I'm looking for.

Earthworm, I had a look at the Maglite book on Massad Ayoob's website but it seems to be aimed more at the large D-cell torches. I've ordered a copy of Ted Truscott's video (Sochin on the forums). His system is aimed at the over 55's which sounds about right for me <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.

Thanks again for all the help.

Clay

Don't worry that the world might end tomorrow, in Australia it's tomorrow already.

Edited by - Clay Kesting on 11/3/2001 5:41:40 PM

Bill Burns
11-02-2001, 06:34 PM
I can speak from experience about the Kubutan book by John Peters and Tak Kubota. I was certified as a Defensive Tactics Instructor by Mr. Peters. The techniques taught in the book are effective with either a Kubotan or Mini-Mag flashlight. If you purchase a Kubotan, try to get one without the ridges. If used, the potential exists that you could severely damage or even sever nerves in the hand. (My personal opinion in this is: If the bastard lays hands upon you and suffers an injury as a result, it is his tough s#$t. However, as a voice of reason in an ever litigation friendly world, I cannot recommend the ridged model)

Bill Burns
11-02-2001, 06:35 PM
I can speak from experience about the Kubutan book by John Peters and Tak Kubota. I was certified as a Defensive Tactics Instructor by Mr. Peters. The techniques taught in the book are effective with either a Kubotan or Mini-Mag flashlight. If you purchase a Kubotan, try to get one without the ridges. If used, the potential exists that you could severely damage or even sever nerves in the hand. (My personal opinion in this is: If the bastard lays hands upon you and suffers an injury as a result, it is his tough s#$t. However, as a voice of reason in an ever litigation friendly world, I cannot recommend the ridged model)

aero_student
11-03-2001, 10:55 PM
I ventured into the realm of woodworking and used my neighnor's lathe to turn one today. It seems like a very effective one. Hopefully I'll be able to make some out of ironwood.

mark
11-06-2001, 07:31 PM
Hi
I am a ASP instructor in Arizona
ASP makes a Kubaton/pepper spray combo that is great as a dual function weapon
if you are interested

wayfarer
12-02-2001, 02:34 PM
Clay,

Combat and training canes, as well as training materials can be found at www.canemaster.com. The canes are low profile, but designed and fabricated as fighting tools (larger crooks for neck takedowns, subtle squaring of the shaft for pressure point manipulation, carved gripping areas etc.). The site is well designed and informative.

You might also seek training in Hapkido (a Korean martial art) for cane and short stick techniques.

Regarding the Kubotan/maglite issure; I've had a Kubotan keychain confiscated at an airport (this was prior to Sept. 11), but no one looks twice at the mini maglite.

Edited by - wayfarer on 12/2/2001 2:36:32 PM

Clay Kesting
12-03-2001, 12:44 PM
Wayfarer,

Thanks for replying to my post. I have already spent way too much time drooling over the Canemaster canes and was ready to order one until I realised that, once the cost of shipping and our exchange rate was taken into account, even the cheapest cane would cost about AUS$120 <img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>. Instead I picked up a locally made walking stick for AUS$30. The crook isn't open enough for hooking but I really only want it for striking anyway. It's supposed to be made from jarrah which is a West Australian hardwood with similar properties to purpleheart so it should go the distance. I'll train with it and give it a few solid wacks to see how it holds up. I'd still like to get a Canemasters eventually.

Interesting comment about your Kubotan being confiscated. They are prohibited weapons in one state here (Victoria) and I expect other states to follow suit. I was looking at the Streamlight BatonLite but they've apparently engraved &quot;Baton&quot; on the side of it which sort of defeats the purpose. The Mini Maglite OTOH seems to be an &quot;invisible&quot; weapon like the cane.

Take care,
Clay

"The trouble is that you think you have time."

wayfarer
12-03-2001, 05:03 PM
Clay,

Mas Ayoob turned me on to the Maglight c-cell flashlight. It's shaft is slimmer, it's lighter and held in a hammer grip with the thumb or forefinger on the switch, the shaft will extend along the outside of the forearm. Choose a length that stops just short of the elbow. (That's the 4-cell model for me.) As an aid to elbow strikes and forearm blocks, it's quite effective and seldom raises eyebrows.

later,
wayfarer

BRAM
12-06-2001, 03:52 PM
Gee Clay, if you like kubaton why not try a Gunting DRONE..( sorry no CRMIPT out yet!)
Its a modern day Kubaton with a bit of balisong thrown in..Actually thats what I'm teaching the Leo &amp; federeal agencies right now..Impact Tool stuff using the Drone as a Kubaton replacement..
The LEO community in print has called it the best less than lethal tool ever designed..
Sorry Taky..better mousetrap's been built..

There's more surface area, curves and angles to hit &amp; use..

Ted Lucaylucay's tape from Unique is very good on Kubaton style techniques..He uses the olisi Palid as more of a striking tool..since its Filipino oriented..

Happy holidays ..be safe!!
whatever tool you choose to use, use it wisely!!

Clay Kesting
12-07-2001, 02:47 AM
Bram,

I've thought about it long and hard and still might buy a drone. However I have a couple of problems with it.

The first is legal. This is from the list of prohibited weapons of one Australian state (Victoria): &quot;Sticks or rods of any material designed as weapons to be applied to the pressure points of the human body, including the martial arts weapon known as <b>Kubotan </b> .&quot; I think this would make even the Gunting drone illegal. I expect that my own state will eventually follow suit as the states try to keep their legislation uniform in this area. Even if it isn't expressly prohibited, I'm still uncertain about explaining why I was carrying the drone as it has no other use than as a weapon. In an altercation without witnesses, the protagonist who was &quot;armed&quot; can easily become the agressor in the eyes of the law. OTOH I can usually find a &quot;lawful reason&quot; for carrying a knife, no one is likely to question a MiniMaglite and I can always develop a limp which necessitates me carrying a cane <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.

The second problem is more practical. I'm not sure how I could actually carry the drone. I still need my pocket(s) for my utility knive(s) and I rarely wear a jacket so a belt sheath is out of the question. OTOH I still need to think this out more as I can't always carry my cane i.e. riding my bike to work <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>, and I don't carry the MiniMaglite during the day. I'm still thinking of a Stinger to carry all the time although I have the same legal concerns with that as the Gunting drone. Maybe an olisi Palid version of the Gunting would be an alternative?

If I did decide to go with the drone, is it necessary to purchase all of your tapes or are some tapes more specific for the closed use of the knife. Alternatively, what about coming to Australia for a seminar? <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

One last question (I promise). Is Ted Lucaylucay's tape suitable for someone with no MA background.

Thanks for your help.

Take care,
Clay




&quot;The trouble is that you think you have time.&quot;

Edited by - Clay Kesting on 12/7/2001 2:53:40 AM

wayfarer
12-07-2001, 08:32 AM
Clay,

You say you never carry the maglight during the day. Why? I always have at least one flashlight on me as well as the microlights on my key chain (red for night vision and clear for color discernment. I'm a lighting videographer; these come in handy checking settings on the camera or serching for gear in the bottom of the run bag). What if you don't get a chance to go home before dark? Don't you ever need to find something in the back corner of a closet, under a piece of furniture or equipment?

I always have a MiniMag or Craftsman (push button on the barrel just behind the lens housing) in my weak-side hip pocket. Having a flashlight on you at all times is not only defensible, it's a good idea.

later,

wayfarer

Edited by - wayfarer on 12/7/2001 9:51:31 AM

Clay Kesting
12-07-2001, 12:29 PM
Wayfarer,

You're right of course. I actually do always carry a flashlight, but it's a Photon on my keyring along with a Mini Fox 40 whistle and a Leatherman Micra. It's just that I haven't yet worked out a way to comfortably carry the MiniMaglite. Weak side hip next to the wallet sounds as though it would work.

Thanks for all the good advice.

Clay

"The trouble is that you think you have time."

BRAM
12-07-2001, 01:03 PM
Clay: Steve Drayton is moving from UK back to OZ in March...just outside of Syndey..
He's a CSSD/SC-Gunting instructor..
and hes bringing DRONES to home..
hes @ blue.roo@ntlworld.com
You could play with him..
Yes hes gonna have access to Gunting-Olisi Palids..but if its as you describe. all things might not be legal for any self defense..
Beter not carry cane masters..they are specifically for selfdefense and to hurt the opponent so by the rules and definitions you stated the decriptions and ads will or can be used against you..
get a pig cane instead...
its cheaper, stronger and obvioulsy a walkig or working cane not a self-defense tool..
If Kubatons are illegal, they are in many spots here as well..specifically named by the way..
then you're in one of those fuzzy warm OZZY spots..
take care of your safety foirst mate..
to hell with the blokes in power..
ROFL..

see ya!

Michael Janich
12-07-2001, 04:33 PM
Dear Clay:

Here's an idea...

Since you're already carrying a Leatherman Micra and can easily justify constant carry of a multi-tool, why not upgrade to one of their Sideclip models. It's only 4 inches long closed, but it could still serve as a very functional stainless steel Kubotan. The clip would allow quick access and very convenient carry. Although the time you would spend opening the tool to expose the pliers in a self-defense situation would probably be better spent vacating the area, if you were to get them out, you'd have a very formidable thrusting weapon and the capability for some truly evil pinching and crushing.

I know a couple of noted knife guys who have played extensively and very successfully with the idea of fighting with multi-tools. With a little practice and imagination, I'm confident you could satisfy your self-defense (and handyman) needs while gracefully sidestepping your legal restrictions.

As a side note, multi-tool cases are also an excellent camouflage for defensive folders. They attract less attention than knife cases or knives clipped to the pocket and can be used very effectively to carry serious blades in anal-retentive environments. When I was in the Army, I used to carry a Benchmade balisong in a multi-tool pouch while in uniform and never raised an eyebrow. Several of my private students work in very PC corporate environments where open carry of knives is frowned upon. In such situations, multi-tool pouches can provide a very useful and low-profile carry alternative.

Food for thought...

Stay safe,

mike j

Clay Kesting
12-07-2001, 04:43 PM
Bram,

Wow, that's great news. I'll contact Steve and organise something when he gets back here. That sort of makes my mind up, I won't do anything more until I've had a chance to work out with him.

I agreee with you comments about the cane. I have a heavy locally made cane which I reckon will serve the purpose. All I have to do is work out an alternative use for the drone/olisi palids. Perhaps the drone could be explained away as being specifically designed for making Vegemite sandwiches <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.

Thanks again for all your help.

Clay

"The trouble is that you think you have time."

Clay Kesting
12-07-2001, 09:09 PM
Mike,

Sorry you must have posted while I was replying to Bram and I missed it. I like the Sideclip idea. I've seen someone suggest carrying the Kershaw tool as a really savage fist load. It has the advantage that you don't need to open it. What I'd like to do is to develop some techniques that I can use with what ever is available whether it is a torch, a multi tool or the butt of whatever knife I'm carrying at the time. I've got a few ideas but I need to get some training.

Clay

"The trouble is that you think you have time."

Steve Drayton
12-16-2001, 02:05 PM
Hi Clay, just wanted to know if you got my email ok ?
Steve

Clay Kesting
12-16-2001, 06:57 PM
Steve,

Thanks mate, I did get your email. My apologies for not letting you know sooner. I'm very much looking forward to the chance to train with you. In the meantime I'm working out with Ted Truscott's cane video and I've just ordered a copy of Masaaki Hatsumi's &quot;Stick Fighting.&quot; BTW have you been following the changes to the laws here and, if so, how do you think the Gunting will fit in? It seems the &quot;test&quot; for self-defence has been simplified but the carrying of weapons (specifically guns and knives) is still not allowed. I'm not sure how that affects other &quot;weapons&quot; which are not mentioned in the &quot;prohibited weapons schedule.&quot;

Clay

"The trouble is that you think you have time."

hy
12-17-2001, 05:50 AM
Clay, as long as a weapon is not mentioned in the nsw prohibited weapons schedule, it would probably not be a crime to carry it unless they could fit it into one of the existing categories. However, the problem is that the nsw act is very tightly worded......i'm very interested in Mike's suggestion regarding using a multi tool for self defence. Mike, could you elaborate a bit more on that? Thanks.

Steve, i'm also interested in undertaking some gunting training upon your return to Australia. Btw, do you also teach weaponless self defence?The reason is that my job makes it very difficult to carry even a multitool on my person most of the time. I'm afraid that that in the event of any altercation, it would be hard to explain why i'm carrying something like a gunting drone or even a crimpt due to the fact that in Australia, ignorance of the law is not a defence.


Edited by - hy on 12/17/2001 6:01:37 AM

Clay Kesting
12-17-2001, 12:25 PM
hy,

I'm not Mike, but I'll have a go at answering anyway. A multi-toll can be used as an impact weapon for hammerfist blows in the same way as a kubotan or koppo stick. A balisong can be used in a similar way but you know we can't carry one of them even if it was made by Spyderco <img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>. A tool like the Gerber, which opens quickly would be an advantage, or the Kershaw as I mentioned previously, as this would make it longer and give a smaller impact area. BTW aren't lawyers allowed to carry torches? <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

I just reread Mike's post and I see that he also suggests the possibility of using the pliers for pinching and crushing. I just got the shivers thinking how much that could hurt a pinky.

See you this arvo.
Clay

&quot;The trouble is that you think you have time.&quot;



Edited by - Clay Kesting on 12/17/2001 12:38:10 PM

Michael Janich
12-19-2001, 05:46 AM
Dear Clay:

Thanks for offering your thoughts on my behalf. I've been out of town for a few days so I'm a bit slow to reply. I really appreciate your support.

Hy, Clay is right on the money in his explanation of the basic uses of a multitool for self-defense. The simple way to look at it is holding something in your hand that provides a hard striking surface that won't feel pain like your hand does. Hammerfist and ridgehand strikes now become very powerful and the impact is focused on a very small area.

A bit more complicated technique is to grip the tool mostly with your fingers, wrap your thumb around a handy body part (like your opponent's wrist or fingers) and squeeze to apply pressure with the sides of the tool against nerve centers. (You'll see good examples of this in Hatsumi's book).

For quick-opening tools (my favorite was the Gerber, which I carried for years until someone &quot;liberated&quot; it), the jaws of the pliers provide either a crushing or puncturing surface and, with a little practice, can be manipulated to open slightly before a strike -- as often recommended with the balisong. Open the pliers slightly, make contact with the jaws on a soft fleshy area, then squeeze. Triceps and inner thighs work best and will quickly rid you of an attacker. In fact, done properly, he may even burn up on reentry into the atmosphere.

Hope this helps.

Stay safe,


mike j

Clay Kesting
12-19-2001, 12:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>In fact, done properly, he may even burn up on reentry into the atmosphere. <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
LOL <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle><img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle><img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle><img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

"The trouble is that you think you have time."

Steve Drayton
12-19-2001, 04:08 PM
Hy
I can certainly teach you some empty hand self defence. I to started my martial arts journey in TKD and in it is a good foundation. However it certainly didn't hold all the answers for me. Enter stage left Bram, who really did open my eye to see a reality that I had previously missed completely. Along with some illusions shattered. So that was when the next stage of my journey began. CSSD/SC works on principals of reality, to be effective keep it simple. CSSD teaches knife, stick and empty hand.

Hy and Clay as I have been in the UK for the past 11 years I am not currently up to date with NSW and Australian knife laws could please suggest some reading, links or sites that would bring me up to date with current legislation

Many Thanks

Steve

hy
12-19-2001, 07:27 PM
Clay, Mike, Steve and everyone, thanks for all the useful information and answers.......Bram, thanks for developing the gunting....when will the crimpt be out?????......can't wait to play around with a gunting drone when steve gets back.......should be fun...

Steve, check the following link out for info on NSW weapons laws.... http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/wpa1998231/sch1.html

The crimpt Might not be covered under these provisions, though it would be difficult to say.


The next link is the Qld law on possessing a knife in a public place......http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/disp.pl/au/legis/qld/consol%5fact/wa1990107/s51.html?query=%7e+knive

Hope this helps.

Edited by - hy on 12/19/2001 7:28:08 PM

Clay Kesting
12-21-2001, 12:21 AM
Steve,

Here's a link on carrying knives in a public place in NSW: http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/campaigns/psa.cfm

In practice I don't worry about that one too much, I reckon my age and appearance give me some immunity and I can usually come up with some sort of reasonable &quot;lawful&quot; excuse. I do tend to choose a smaller knife if I'm going out at night especially in the CBD. I only carry a knife for utility so it doesn't matter much to me. The law mainly seems to be used to target gangs and youths hanging around known trouble spots.

What concerns me more is the draft list of prohibited weapons drawn up by the Vic government. As I mentioned in an earlier post it expressly prohibits Kubotans but is also worded to include anything designed to be applied to pressure points, so it may well make the Gunting illegal. I think NSW may well follow suit as the states try to adopt uniform legislation. We seem to be moving in the same direction as GB which is not surprising since we have a pommie Chief of Police <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>. I have the Vic legislation in a .pdf file which I can send you if you are interested. The laws relating to self-defence have changed recently but I can't find the details on line yet.

Clay




"The trouble is that you think you have time."

Steve Drayton
12-21-2001, 10:39 AM
Thank you gentlemen for those links found them really useful spent last night reading through things and couldn’t find anything that would make the Gunting illegal to carry. Predominately looked Weapons Prohibition Act 1998 for NSW. Also in the Queensland Weapons Act 1990 - SECT 51 I couldn’t find the definition of a pen knife. Are there any other acts that cover these areas that I should be looking for?

Small in my opinion is best when it comes to folding knives. They’re less threatening to the sheeple, can do most utility tasks that a larger folder can do and both ethically and morally we don’t want to stab anybody anyway. If u do, do not pass go, do not collect $200 you’re going straight to jail. Can you use a small folder in a self-defence situation? You bet and very effectively. If you’ve read some Bram’s stuff you’ll understand what I mean, if not check it out. All fun stuff for me to share when I come back.

Clay please do send the legislation from Victoria I would be really interested.

Wishing everyone a safe and happy holiday season

Steve