"Illegal" Spyderco

[twca]

Proving that myth and misinformation can persist for more than a decade, I wandered around knife dealers today in Toronto, Canada and was told by three separate merchants they no longer carry Spyderco AT ALL because "they are illegal".

This apparently stems from some ancient early 1990s-era attitude that Enduras and Delicas, once loose at the (admittedly non-adjustable) pivot, could be "flicked" open with the wrist. Due to Toronto police enforcing what I suspect is actually an incorrect interpretation of "gravity knife" laws, people were indeed charged accordingly. One vendor says he was requested by police to stop sales of the knives several years ago, and he complied.

I'm frustrated for a few reasons:

1) I don't understand why this situation persists in Toronto (or perhaps it's Canada as a whole) when the Spyderco model line has duly evolved. There's no way education can correct the problem?

2) There is no way on earth to "flick" open a Dragonfly. It is also an "illegal" Spyderco knife due to the unadjustable pivot?

3) There is no rhyme or reason to what is being enforced. One of these these stores had a black coated, waved Emerson CQC7 under their counter. Another store had a La Griffe style neck knife. Has common sense actually evaded our fine retailers to this extent? These knives are okay, yet a Delica is a Bad Knife to sell? (this is not a slag of Emerson, they're fantastic knives, but come on, a black waved tanto CQC7 is "okay" while a Delica is "illegal"? Ridiculous!).

I posted this for two reasons, first to see if any Canadian/Torontoian :spyder: fans have any information as to why this situation persists and what's been going on.

The second is to see if Sal or any others at Spyderco are aware this terrible old myth persists in my city/country and is literally keeping these fine products, some of the most obvious utility knives made, out of stores while Emerson products are sold without anyone batting an eye. Is Spyderco stepping up to the plate for their products?

Thanks so much,

T.

[swingshot]

Folding knives are often labeled by authorities as Gravity knives even if that was not intended for that purpose. It happens in many jurisdictions across the world. I'm sure there are Spyderco dealers elsewhere in Canada though.

Lack of Rhyme and reason is about correct - it stems from a fear that swtichblades are somehow more dangerous than other knives, and 'gravity knives' are considered Switchblades by association.

I'm inclined to blame Rebel without a cause.

I'm not sure there's anything that could really be done - you can't reason with fear, and even if one person had the power to reverse the status of Spydies in Toronto, they probably wouldn't for fear of damaging their job security.
Drawing a comparison with readily available Emersons would probably just result in Emersons being labeled illegal too.


It stinks, but i think you're stuck with it.:(

[twca]

I'm not sure there's anything that could really be done

I disagree, could it not be somehow made clear to dealers (or law enforcement) that these models no longer have non-adjustable pivots? I can't imagine Spyderco enjoys this kind of attitude toward the entirety of their product line.

[Joshua J.]

The problem here is that Canadian law is worded very loosely in regards to what a prohibited knife is. Technically if you read it right (or should I say wrong) you could make a case for all folding knives being illegal.

This comes from section III of bill C68 in the Canadian criminal code.
"prohibited weapon" means
( a) a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, or
( b) any weapon, other than a firearm, that is prescribed to be a prohibited weapon;

It could be said that since all folding knives can be flicked open “automatically” (it’s only a matter of how hard you try) they are all illegal.
That’s generally not how the law is interpreted but it could be. In any case there’s always part (b), if they say it’s illegal, it is.

I think it wouldn’t be a problem to remove the part that says “or centrifugal force” because most one hand opening knives can be opened just as fast without flicking them.

[Thalestin]

I live in victoria BC, and have not run into this kind of problem. Possibly it is because of the raising crime rate in toronto, but i really dont understand it to be honest.

[The Mastiff]

It's the canadian government and the laws, not the retailers or spydercos fault or responsibility to do something about it.

The canadian people voted the government into office and can vote them out if they want. It must be the will of the people. The majority anyway. Essentially you'll have to work to change the government and the way it enforces and interpets laws by changing the mind of the current office holders or voting new people in that more reflect the will of the people. Personally, I think the government there is working and does reflect the will of the majority. Joe

[twca]

I live in victoria BC, and have not run into this kind of problem. Possibly it is because of the raising crime rate in toronto, but i really dont understand it to be honest.

Maybe except this issue has been around since the Endura 1 days, this is old old information no longer even relevant to the current product line. I wouldn't think it would be attributed to any recent crime issue.

[twca]

The canadian people voted the government into office and can vote them out if they want.

We did. Doesn't mean this one will change it though. I never suggested that Spyderco had a duty to do anything, I asked if this ancient issue is known and if they are *interested* in doing more about it, big difference. As for retailers, I do think they should be better educated about the situation.

[The Deacon]

It's obviously not a nationwide issue in Canada, we have a number of Canadian members who talk of local brick and mortar shops that sell Spyderco knives.

Logically, knives with adjustable pivots would be more, rather than less, attractive to someone who wanted to be able to flick them open, since the pivot could be easily loosened.

It does appear to be something Spyderco MIGHT be able to straighten out with the Toronto Police. However, this may not be the best time to get Sal's attention, as I believe he's either preparing for a trip to Europe or already there. So don't feel insulted or ignored if there is no immediate "official" response to this.

[Jordan]

It is a pervasive myth in our culture that a weapon is an entity in and of itself capable of evil, that is the source of any and all legislation that limits the ownership and use of inanimate objects that are capable in certain conditions of inflicting pain or trauma, whether or not their intended use is entirely different. Realistically, a good hunting rifle in the right hands is far more dangerous than a tommy gun... and a buck knife and a switchblade are just as capable of causing death or severe laceration. But each of the latter options has a cultural stigma that has caused them to be considered not only illegal, but immoral. As far as most Hollywood-fed sheeple are concerned, only thugs and gangsters carry automatic knives in the civilized world. Therefore, it isn't the interpretation of legislation you have to combat, it is the persistent archetype of the switchblade armed malcontent.

I was involved in a psychology project a few semesters ago, my group gave subjects a score card and a stack of photographs. We had taken pictures of just about everything we could find that WE felt was associated with an emotion in the array between fear and endearment, or an idea which evoked an emotion in that spectrum... animals, buildings, plants, people, clouds, you name it. I included photographs of my throwing knife, my switchblade, one of my spydercos (police), my rifle, and my camp ax in my part of the stack. We asked people to go through all the pictures as quickly as possible and circle a number from one to five (one being the most frightening, or unpleasant and five being the most endearing or pleasant) We surveyed 50 people. First we surveyed 25, and then we switched the order of the pictures and surveyed the other 25 (to try and remove bias... for instance, when we showed a picture of a bird before a picture of a bee, both were positive most of the time, and vice versa, the bee is invariably negative) Almost every single one of them marked 1 (most frightening) for the switchblade while most marked either 3 (neutral), or 2 (somewhat frightening) for both the rifle and the camp ax. The spyderco scored mostly 2s and 1s... since I know this crowd is gonna ask. The project was about people's level of comfort with various items and ideas. Point being, even though the rifle and the camp ax are by FAR more dangerous items, people associate an Italian stiletto with a negative idea. Idea's can be remarkably hard to fight tw, no matter how unfair the associations with them can be. In answer to your query, no, I do not believe it would be possible to make it clear to law enforcement or dealers that a semantic difference makes the legislation in existence void as far as spyderco knives go. I mean, really, just telling people that the knives in question now have adjustable pivots sort of translates into, "Well, now people have to adjust them slightly to make them into flick knives."

I'd say swingshot pretty much has it right... one of those unfortunate things about life that we must bear with and move beyond. You can usually get better prices shopping online anyway.

Really sorry to hear about the whole ordeal though.

[TazKristi]

Proving that myth and misinformation can persist for more than a decade, I wandered around knife dealers today in Toronto, Canada and was told by three separate merchants they no longer carry Spyderco AT ALL because "they are illegal".

This apparently stems from some ancient early 1990s-era attitude that Enduras and Delicas, once loose at the (admittedly non-adjustable) pivot, could be "flicked" open with the wrist. Due to Toronto police enforcing what I suspect is actually an incorrect interpretation of "gravity knife" laws, people were indeed charged accordingly. One vendor says he was requested by police to stop sales of the knives several years ago, and he complied.

I'm frustrated for a few reasons:

1) I don't understand why this situation persists in Toronto (or perhaps it's Canada as a whole) when the Spyderco model line has duly evolved. There's no way education can correct the problem?

There are several issues at hand and to be honest, it can depend upon the day and the person making the decision. Canada is part of my territory, I've seen all kinds of things from accounts all across Canada.


2) There is no way on earth to "flick" open a Dragonfly. It is also an "illegal" Spyderco knife due to the unadjustable pivot?

3) There is no rhyme or reason to what is being enforced. One of these these stores had a black coated, waved Emerson CQC7 under their counter. Another store had a La Griffe style neck knife. Has common sense actually evaded our fine retailers to this extent? These knives are okay, yet a Delica is a Bad Knife to sell? (this is not a slag of Emerson, they're fantastic knives, but come on, a black waved tanto CQC7 is "okay" while a Delica is "illegal"? Ridiculous!).

I posted this for two reasons, first to see if any Canadian/Torontoian :spyder: fans have any information as to why this situation persists and what's been going on.

The second is to see if Sal or any others at Spyderco are aware this terrible old myth persists in my city/country and is literally keeping these fine products, some of the most obvious utility knives made, out of stores while Emerson products are sold without anyone batting an eye. Is Spyderco stepping up to the plate for their products?

Thanks so much,

T.

We are aware, but unfortunately, there is little that we can do. We've met with the Canadian Government, but to my knowledge, not any one specific province or city. However, you have more power in this area than we do. If only due to the fact that you are there. I would recommend that you speak with the Police in your area and find out their interpretation directly from them. I can say that I do have a Dealer in Toronto who actively purchases from us and our Distributors. I honestly haven't heard anything from them regarding this being an issue in Toronto.

I'm out of the office until late next week, but I believe I have more than one account in Toronto. I'll let you know.

So, yes, I think we are stepping up to the plate. :) Hopefully you do too.

Kristi

[Bowie Man]

Hey TWCA,

The information you received was false and misleading...take it from a Toronto Copper. There are quite a few stores in the City of Toronto that sell Spyderco knives in abundance, and Cops are some of their best customers.

JoshuaJ provided accurate quotes from the Criminal Code in regards to whats illegal, those being automatic knives or those that open up with centrifugal force.

Canadian Customs however, is a different story. Officers (not Police) will quite often test out knives coming into the country from all manufactures (custom/production) to make sure they abide by the standards set out by the Criminal Code. If these knives fail for whatever reason (loose pivot/screw etc..) they will be deemed illegal and confiscated. Knives using pivots such as Spyderco and Cold Steel are more at risk to fail the test due to the fact that they can be flicked open using centrifugal force. This does not make the product itself illegal, only the individual knives that are chosen to be randomly tested. Pivots are difficult to work with, but screws can be tightened....problem solved.

TazKristi,
I know some of the guys that you deal with in Toronto, they're very good to us. I'm not sure where the tradition originated...but if you're a Copper anywhere in Canada/USA, you carry a Spyderco. That's all there is to it.

Hope this helps you out a little TWCA ;)

[JD Spydo]

What it boils down to is the fact that the USA and Canada both are slowly but surely becoming POLICE STATES. Silly, stupid and ridiculous laws such as a knife that opens easy does absolutely nothing to protect the public as they say>> it only gives them a flimsy reason to invoke more tyranny :( .

Here at one time both countries were a beacon of freedom throughout the rest of the world. Now neither country can boast of being free. We are to the point to where we are micro-managed down to even having our water flouridated and our food irradiated :( .

It's time we get involved in the political process folks or we will see a day that owning a Ladybug will even be a felony :(

[Bowie Man]

What it boils down to is the fact that the USA and Canada both are slowly but surely becoming POLICE STATES. Silly, stupid and ridiculous laws such as a knife that opens easy does absolutely nothing to protect the public as they say>> it only gives them a flimsy reason to invoke more tyranny :( .

Here at one time both countries were a beacon of freedom throughout the rest of the world. Now neither country can boast of being free. We are to the point to where we are micro-managed down to even having our water flouridated and our food irradiated :( .

It's time we get involved in the political process folks or we will see a day that owning a Ladybug will even be a felony :(

Considering that you live in the most free and democratic country in the world, where you virtualy have the ability to do anything you want...that's a very bold statement to make.

I invite you to attend any Police funeral and use words such as "Tyranny" and "Police State". Because we don't die for our country, we don't die for our families...we die for you. A complete stranger.

Thanks for holding us in such high regard.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Considering that you live in the most free and democratic country in the world, where you virtualy have the ability to do anything you want...that's a very bold statement to make.

I invite you to attend any Police funeral and use words such as "Tyranny" and "Police State". Because we don't die for our country, we don't die for our families...we die for you. A complete stranger.

Thanks for holding us in such high regard.

Bowie Man...with all due respect (and I'll let JD speak for himself) I don't think that what you thought you read was what JD was trying to say...I certainly did not read it that way....Both countries yours and mine have laws on the books that are outdated and ridiculous...here most of these outdated and ridiculous laws are not enforced with the gusto that your customs officers seem to apply...so some laws here are really a non-issue...but we all must remain vigilant so as not to lose are precious freedom and liberty...that being said I can inertia open any knife including a Dragonfly and even the Jester and Ladybug and I would defy any court after watching a demo of such to define those knives as switchblades or gravity knives...Doc:D

[John G.]

I encourage everyone concerned about loosing their rights to carry pocket knives in America (like what is happening in the UK and Canada) to support the new NRA-like group lobbying for our rights. Go to KnifeRights.org/membership to read more and sign up.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I encourage everyone concerned about loosing their rights to carry pocket knives in America (like what is happening in the UK and Canada) to support the new NRA-like group lobbying for our rights. Go to KnifeRights.org/membership to read more and sign up.


Good Post John G....Good Post!!!.....Doc:D

Best $28.00 you'll ever spend....

[dedguy]

On the subject of graity knives what exactly are they really supposed to be? I had always assumed that the term refered to balisongs.

I also do not understand how a switchblade, automatic, or baliong is in anyway more dangerous than any other knife. In fact I would think just about any fixed blade would be more dangerous. I've heard it said that the laws against such knives are laws against groups not the knives themselves.

[Dr. Snubnose]

On the subject of graity knives what exactly are they really supposed to be? I had always assumed that the term refered to balisongs.

I also do not understand how a switchblade, automatic, or baliong is in anyway more dangerous than any other knife. In fact I would think just about any fixed blade would be more dangerous. I've heard it said that the laws against such knives are laws against groups not the knives themselves.

dedguy:
A gravity knife is a knife which can be opened solely by the forces of gravity or centripetal force. One method of opening is where the blade exits out the front of the handle point-first and locks into place. Another form is like a switchblade, but instead of a button or spring, the knife is "flipped" out of the handle, and locked into place. To retract the blade back into the handle, a release lever, or linerlock is pressed. Should the knife be equipped with a spring to open the blade, it is then referred to as an Out-The-Front Automatic knife or OTF for short, or a switchblade if it exits out of the side. Knives commonly mistaken for gravity knives include OTF automatic knives, the switchblade and the butterfly knife (or balisong)...Doc:D

[JD Spydo]

OK folks let me clear the air and explain in detail what I meant on my previous post on this thread.

First of all I have always liked Bowie Man and have always enjoyed his posts here on the Forum and as far as I'm concerned I still feel that way about him. I don't know him personally as I have gotten to know many of you personally but I deem him a good Forum member none the less.

However "Bowie Man" I think you very much MISUNDERSTOOD the point I was trying to make on that post. First & Foremost there was absolutely nothing on that post that could have in any way, shape or form been construed as a "put down" or a derogatory comment against Police or any first responders at all. For crying out loud I have LEOs in my own family :(

But with the recent passing of all of these draconian acts and executive orders we are seeing a rapid erosion of our freedoms and liberties not only here in the USA but I have seen it happen in Canada as well. My statement was meant to provoke thought about how much we as citizens have virtually been painted into a corner with so many un-necessary laws that we are in a virtual legal quagmire in this day and age. Many citizens feel like the system as a whole has turned on them and I am one that feels that way. My post was about the ridiculousness of many of these anti-knife laws.

These restrictive laws concerning knives of all kinds do absolutely nothing to help protect the public at large. If anything it gives the criminal the upper hand. But I don't see how anyone could have interpreted my post as being a slam against POLICE. The POLICE don't make the laws. It's the government officials that write and pass these laws. I will take a stand for liberty and freedom till the day I die. Our soldiers overseas are not fighting so we can have more draconian and restrictive laws. They are fighting for our freedom and our way of life. There was nothing in that post aimed at LEOs what so ever. I sent Bowie Man a PM explaining in detail as to what I meant. However I will stand on what I said. GOD Bless you all. :)

[Bowie Man]

JD Spydo,

Thanks for the PM. Everyday all I hear is that we are a---oles, racists and liares. Even when good people get tickets for legitamate reasons they change their attitude towards the Police. You don't get de-sensitized to it... just the opposite, you are always on the defensive trying to justify your actions.

After re-reading your post and PM, I realized that you were not intentionally putting down Police Officers but the "system" dictating the actions of the Police.

Sorry that I jumped the gun Joe.

[foggy]

I also do not understand how a switchblade, automatic, or baliong is in anyway more dangerous than any other knife. In fact I would think just about any fixed blade would be more dangerous.

Isn't the swichblade somewhat more dangerous because the spring loaded blade can be shot into someone without any hand motion at all? That being said I don't realy understand why a AO or "flick knife" would be any more dangerous than someone who can open a :spyder: quickly.

I have a friend who realy likes his gerber gator so he drilled the blade and added a thumb stud. Does this now make it a "dangerous" knife?:confused:

[twca]

I'm out of the office until late next week, but I believe I have more than one account in Toronto. I'll let you know.

Please do send a PM if you can. I'd really appreciate it.


So, yes, I think we are stepping up to the plate. :) Hopefully you do too.

Oh, I plan to, don't worry. Not one to complain and not act. The current situation isn't acceptable!

[twca]

The information you received was false and misleading...take it from a Toronto Copper. There are quite a few stores in the City of Toronto that sell Spyderco knives in abundance, and Cops are some of their best customers.

Hey Bowie Man,

Thanks for the post, it means a lot. If you could PM with any locations it'd be a big help. I'd like to think :spyder: has an excellent reputation among TPS guys!

[elt1]

Happy to say that out here on the West Coast there are more than a few stores that sell Spyderco products.

Being an LEO officer I also find knives of all kinds on different people, including Spydies. While many others flick open, I've yet to find a Spydie that does....

[The Deacon]

Isn't the swichblade somewhat more dangerous because the spring loaded blade can be shot into someone without any hand motion at all? That being said I don't realy understand why a AO or "flick knife" would be any more dangerous than someone who can open a :spyder: quickly.

I have a friend who realy likes his gerber gator so he drilled the blade and added a thumb stud. Does this now make it a "dangerous" knife?:confused:The only knife where the blade can be "shot" into someone is a ballistic knife where the blade is literally launched from the handle as a projectile. They are the one category of knives I have no problem with being made totally illegal to own.

An OTF auto could only injure you if the front of the handle was closer to you than the length of the blade when it was opened.

Interestingly, one of the first applications of the principle of the automatic knife was a device called a fleam, used by doctors in the days when "bleeding" was considered a medical treatment for certain ills as an alternative to leeches. The spring mechanism was "cocked", the handle was placed against the skin, and the "trigger" activated. The very small blade then made a cut more precisely and uniformly than would have otherwise been possible, and the patient was less likely to flinch because they could not see it coming.

The opening motion of a switchblade is identical to that of a regular folder, so I would not consider it a very effective weapon

Switchblades, OTF autos, and at least some gravity knives can be opened without any hand motion beyond the "motion" of pushing a button or moving a lever.

It does pay to remember that back when almost all the state and federal laws regarding automatics and gravity knives were being written those were the only knifes which could be consistently and easily opened with one hand. For that reason, at least some lawmakers today would be more than happy to extend the restrictions against autos and gravity knives to include any and all knives which can be opened one handed. From a purely legal perspective, that would make as much sense as repealing the existing laws, since, as you pointed out, such knives are no more difficult to deploy quickly than the "evil" switchblade. From a purley political perspective, it would be a lot more attractive than repeal, since it could be "spun" as "anti-crime" and "anti-violence". For that reason, it pays to be very careful where, and to whom, you argue the illogic of the current situation. As an old co-worker of mine would say "things can ALWAYS get worse".

Consider this for a moment. I don't think the Capital Region of New York is particularly "violent", but the chances of a week going by without the local newspapers and TV reporting at least one "stabbing" are slim. There is a better chance of me being hit by lightening than of two weeks without such a report. Now granted, you know and I know that the "weapon" in most of these incidents was a kitchen knife, a pair of scissors, a letter opener, or some other household object. But it seems like the only time the weapon gets described is when it is a folding knife, hunting knife, or the dreaded SWITCHBLADE!!!.

I would imagine statistics in other parts of the country are about the same, and that the media there follows a similar pattern as to what gets publicized and what doesn't. What impression do you think those almost weekly stories create in the minds of the "average voter"? Now consider that the folks who need to support legislation to either ease or increase the restricitions on knives are elected, and most want to be re-elected. Which position do you think looks more attractive to them?

[merciful]

Things like this really annoy me, as I'm very much inclined with the classic "guns don't kill people..." faction. The knife laws here in Canada are much easier to deal with than the myriad state/local restrictions in the USA: as (I believe) was more-or-less covered above, we can't have have automatics of any sort, or knives which open via gravity (or "centrifugal force"), balisongs, or push-daggers. Any sort of folder is technically fine, and there is no restriction on blade length.

I did lose a knife to Customs once, as they declared that it could be opened "centrifugally", with the dreaded wrist-snap. The officer admitted to me that it was a stupid distinction, that the assisted-opening mechnism was quicker, safer, and more reliable; and told me the next time to make sure I had the dealer tighten the pivot.

I've also had a senior RCMP officer pass along to me through a relative that he didn't think any cop around here would have any concern what sort of knofe I used to cut up someone trying to rob me in the street; and anyway, I've always considered the law to run a very poor second to necessity in a serious situation.

Even should the law change (which is very unlikely here, considering the preponderance of wide-open spaces, outdoorsmen, and our strong centralised government), I'll carry whatever I damn well please. No-one is supposed to be carrying a knife in the UK now and people are still stabbed in the street: but I'm no sucker.

[swingshot]

As an old co-worker of mine would say "things can ALWAYS get worse".





Too true. In Denmark the U.K Pen knife isn't even legal for carry. :mad: