What can be done to prevent tip damage?

[Vincent]

What can I do to prevent tip damage. It seems on some of my Spyderco's, Lil temp and Para now have broken tips. I mean I use them as normal as possible, as to what I consider normal. No I don't only cut computer paper and envelopes. Like today I was working on building a hover craft. So I was cutting a tire in half with my Para and I guess the rubber was just to tough as It took the tip with it. My Military has never had a broken tip but I think thats because its much longer. I even broke the tip on my strider sng.

what can I do?

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: switch to a sawz-all. I fear you ask too much of your knives.:spyder:

[Qship]

This might work for you:

http://www.blackhawk.com/product1.asp?P=25-&C=C0972

Qship

[KSDbass]

^^ I find it ironic that it's pronounced "excessive"

[Vincent]

What am I supposed to carry that thing around lol. Im sure the NYC LEO's will love that.

As for asking to much from my knives. I really doubt that. I mean to think a Pocket knife that costs $100-$400 should only be used lightly and to only cut light paper and envelopes is ridiculous. The true reason I buy higher quality knives is due to locks and handles. Steels dont do much for me as I find most steels that top companies use to just all disappoint(s30v,VG-10,D 2, 154cm and others). I mean I used a cheap $10 Gerber for years that was made from there stainless steel and never had a tip break, never had chipping or anything alike.

[The Mastiff]

Vincent, if it's happening with different brands, and different steels what does that tell you? Because a knife is expensive doesn't mean the tip is able to handle prying, twisting, or applying lateral forces on it. All knives come with warnings about prying now.

I've never broken a tip in 38 years of knife use. Use the right tool for the job. If the correct tool doesn't exist, get out your file, or dremmel and make it. That is something I learned in armorers school. It's better than tearing stuff up. Joe

[Vincent]

Vincent, if it's happening with different brands, and different steels what does that tell you? Because a knife is expensive doesn't mean the tip is able to handle prying, twisting, or applying lateral forces on it. All knives come with warnings about prying now.

I've never broken a tip in 38 years of knife use. Use the right tool for the job. If the correct tool doesn't exist, get out your file, or dremmel and make it. That is something I learned in armorers school. It's better than tearing stuff up. Joe

tells me s30v is not that great of a steel.

[Padawan]

tells me s30v is not that great of a steel.

I don't mean this disrespectfully, but what it should tell you is that:

a) You're using the knife in a way that is was not intended to be used.

b) You don't understand or are unwilling to accept the trade-offs in the properties of various steels or blade grinds/shapes.

Blaming the steel isn't the answer here.

[Vincent]

I don't mean this disrespectfully, but what it should tell you is that:

a) You're using the knife in a way that is was not intended to be used.

b) You don't understand or are unwilling to accept the trade-offs in the properties of various steels or blade grinds/shapes.

Blaming the steel isn't the answer here.

hrm so a knife is not meant to cut a softer material like rubber.

[Ed Schempp]

If the tip is run off the ceramic at the tip the point will go to a radius. I tend to sharpen the tip to a 45 inclusive angle, this is from the point to .2 inches back on the edge. As the tip starts to move the edge up I relieve the back of the blade at the tip to strengthen the tip. This is like going from a D3 to D4 tip profile.

Steel is a compromise; generally the better it cuts the less ductile it is. 420 J2 will bend because it doesn't have enough Carbon to get very hard.

Rather than prying with your tip use the back of the blade as a wedge maybe with some torque to accomplish the same task...Take Care...Ed

[Bolster]

If the tip is run off the ceramic at the tip the point will go to a radius. I tend to sharpen the tip to a 45 inclusive angle, this is from the point to .2 inches back on the edge. As the tip starts to move the edge up I relieve the back of the blade at the tip to strengthen the tip. This is like going from a D3 to D4 tip profile.

I understand the theory, Ed, but I don't understand how to accomplish this. You're saying you sharpen tips at 45i and the rest of the blade at, perhaps, 30i or something, and you transition at .2 inches from the tip? Wonderful, but how do you do it? Or more accurately, how do I do it?

Also, I confess I don't understand the sentence, "As the tip starts...strengthen the tip." Say again please?

[Chucula]

Use the right tool for the job.



Nothing else to say here.

Ok...maybe one more thing: use disposable razor knives, like box cutters.

[Vincent]

Nothing else to say here.

Ok...maybe one more thing: use disposable razor knives, like box cutters.


if we all used the proper tool for the job Spyderco and every other knife company would be out of business. There is Not 1 use for a pocket knife that there is not a Proper tool for that can take its place.

[flipe8]

From the knives you described, I'd consider something with a more stout tip. A Delica IV would likely serve your intended uses quite well, or even a sheepsfoot blade. Maybe a tanto tip?

[tonyfromky]

I'd use a saw to cut a tire in half. Or some shears.

[Vincent]

I think many of you are missing the point. if I used the proper tool for every job I did, Id have a truck full of tools. Its unrealistic and I move around alot, im on a public bus right now. A pocket knife is a Versatile tool and I use it as one. Continually saying " Use the right tool for the job" is kinda crazy. As I pointed out before our pocket knives have absolutely no use.

Versatility's is the main word here. I'm pretty sure thats the reason the pocket knife was created. To fill in for other tools to make it easier on the user, so they don't have to carry 50 tools with them at all times. Im not talking abut stabbing concrete, im talking about cutting a tire which a cheap .15¢ knife would do. To me there is no proper use for a pocket knife as it is meant for versatility and its up to the user. If you feel slicing open a envelope is as far as a pocket knife should be used and anything above is abuse, then thats fine. But I feel they can be used for much more than that.




As to stout tips, thats a great selection. What other Spyderco's have bulky tips. I think they would suit me much better as the Para and Militarys tips are just way to vulnerable.

[cyberspyder]

I'd use a saw to cut a tire in half. Or some shears.

Exactly, either shears, or some hardware, BUT NOT A KNIFE.

[WORKER#9]

Dude..........

[Padawan]

hrm so a knife is not meant to cut a softer material like rubber.

You've broken a Para, a Lil Temp, and a Strider SNG. Obviously, the issue is not with the knives, but the way that they're being used. Again, I don't think anyone here is trying to be disrespectful or disparaging, but you posted a question looking for an answer, and the answer is that the blame should not be placed on the knives or the blade steel.

[markg]

Keep in mind tire manufactures have spent, what like a century, trying to come up with ways to keep nails, etc... out of tires. I consider a tire a difficult thing to be cutting, and would expect some damage to the blade. That being said...

Everything is a compromise. Case in point... I can give you a ceramic blade, that will cut and cut. Drop it on the ground and it will break. Yes, S30V is a premium steel. However what is premium about it? Edge retention, hardness? Make something hard and you can make it brittle. There are steels out there, in knives that will do some of what you are asking. For example, AUS6... It does not hold an edge anywhere near S30V, BUT... It seems to want to bend and not break. Looks like you need to find the blade profile and steel that meets your needs.

As an example. I had one of our kids, locked in their bedroom (lock jammed, and they were late for school). I tried to unlock it, disassemble it. It all failed. I got my Glock Entrenching tool (knife) and took the door down. Hacked out the doorknob, actually had to start and PRY the door frame off (it was really stuck, actually had to get the kid out the window! Yes, it was a memorable morning...) What did it do to the knife? It has some white paint on the tip. Now, it does not hold and edge as well as anything Spyderco makes, but I could beat it against a rock and it would survive. Now, not like you can carry it around daily...

I would never stick a Para Military into a tire. That tip is meant for soft things. Used defensively, or stick it into something soft, and it is great. A tire I would expect to kill it...

What knives does Spyderco make that should be better? Try the Manix, possibly the Chinook (not really sure, but as strange as it looks, that tip has pretty good metal behind it), I think maybe even the Native would stand up to some beating (and you can get two steel choices S30V, or VG-10 in the Native III).

Have you considered a multi-tool? Would that do some of the things you are asking?

[Vincent]

You've broken a Para, a Lil Temp, and a Strider SNG. Obviously, the issue is not with the knives, but the way that they're being used. Again, I don't think anyone here is trying to be disrespectful or disparaging, but you posted a question looking for an answer, and the answer is that the blame should not be placed on the knives or the blade steel.

Yeah but they all have one thing in Common S30V. My Captain will not break and I have been using it alot lately. Nor will my Leatherman Charge which is 154cm.

I am not trying to bash knives or brands, more so of trying to find a better product for my needs. Maybe s30v is just not the steel for me and I need a softer or less Carbon based steel.


Thogh back to the only use the right tool for the job. If we are supposed to do this why do you guys have pocket knives?

[LJK]

Vincent I hear what your saying. I've busted or bent a tip or three myself. Have you tried the D Allara drop point? It seems to me it would hold up better then a Millie or Pmillie for your type of use.

[Vincent]

Vincent I hear what your saying. I've busted or bent a tip or three myself. Have you tried the D Allara drop point? It seems to me it would hold up better then a Millie or Pmillie for your type of use.

I haven't tried on yet. But after watching a video of it on youtube I can see what ya mean. I think il try one.

[tonyfromky]

"Thogh back to the only use the right tool for the job. If we are supposed to do this why do you guys have pocket knives?"

I would wager that I can cut a concrete block in half with my Delica. Therefore, according to your logic, it is the right tool for the job.

[Vincent]

"Thogh back to the only use the right tool for the job. If we are supposed to do this why do you guys have pocket knives?"

I would wager that I can cut a concrete block in half with my Delica. Therefore, according to your logic, it is the right tool for the job.

no I think thats your logic. I am just asking if you don't think pocket knife is meant to be used as a substitute for other tools, the why have one. There is no job specifically for a pocket knife.

As I mentioned before the Pocket knife is meant to be a versatile tool. We all have different needs and wants.

[tonyfromky]

"no I think thats your logic"

No, it's yours. I just took it to the extreme. Just because I have a knife in my pocket doesn't mean it is appropriate for every task. I gather from your postings that you feel that a pocket knife is a suitable tool for cutting thick, tough, and potentially filthy (abrasive) rubber. Not one person here supports that decision. And you're getting a dubious result. That should tell you something. It's your knife and it's your tire so the choice is yours.

Out of curiosity, how are you cutting the tires? Straight across so you could unroll it into a strip of rubber? Cutting the sidewalls off, leaving the tread? And how many were you able to cut before the knives fail?


-=-=-=-
Be that as it may, would a Yojimbo be good for this? How about something serrated?

[Bolster]

I appreciate Vincent's question. Sure, we all know about "right tool for the job" but I'd like to hear continued constructive discussion regarding how to keep the tip on the knife under hard use situations. I'd jump in with advice, but I don't have any. Here to learn.

[Vincent]

"no I think thats your logic"

Just because I have a knife in my pocket doesn't mean it is appropriate for every task. I gather from your postings that you feel that a pocket knife is a suitable tool for cutting thick, tough, and potentially filthy (abrasive) rubber. Not one person here supports that decision. And you're getting a dubious result. That should tell you something. It's your knife and it's your tire so the choice is yours.

Out of curiosity, how are you cutting the tires? Straight across so you could unroll it into a strip of rubber? Cutting the sidewalls off, leaving the tread? And how many were you able to cut before the knives fail?


-=-=-=-
Be that as it may, would a Yojimbo be good for this? How about something serrated?

I never said a pocket knife was ok for all tasks. You mentioned cutting concrete, I don't think thats proper. I never said the knife was suitable or the proper tool for cutting a tire. I said the pocket knife is a versatile tool that takes the place of many others. I didn't have a saw, sheers or any other proper tool, the job needed to be done so I went with it. Thats the reason I carry a Pocket knife. Otherwise the pocket knife is as good as a mantel piece. If your argument is that we should just always use the proper tool for the job, im sorry to say but the chances of most knife companies being around today are slim. The idea of a Pocket knife is for Utility. I even think its definition states that. The use of that knife is up to the user if you ask me. I still think cutting a tire is fine. Like I said my Captain is a champ at it. Absolutely no damage. The only reason the other knives chipped is due to the rubber coming together. It took almost no pressure, just me pulling the knife out for the tips to break. In football have you ever heard of a Hi-Low, well i guess the rubber did that. As the rubber was overlapping each other and when i pulled the knife out, the tip just snapped off. Now I am not talking about the entire tip Its just a very small chunk of steel. Nothing that couldn't be sharpened out. It wasn't like I was prying a door open and the actual cutting didn't do the job.

As for how I am cutting them, right down the vertical middle. So think if you were drive and a huge knife came down from sky to road. Thats the way they are being cut. It was the first one that broke the Para blade, them I just used the captain in fear of more damage to the para.


My Lil Temps tip broke from cutting some boating rope. I guess it was really hard stuff. The salt water maybe. again not a huge potion. Just a very small piece.

I never had a serrated knife, but was thinking of getting a serrated Military. As for the Yojimbo, I cant say as Ive never used one.


Here are some pics of my tips.

http://vincentp.net/pics/knife/tip/DSC03250%20(Large).JPG
http://vincentp.net/pics/knife/tip/DSC03251%20(Large).JPG
http://vincentp.net/pics/knife/tip/DSC03252%20(Large).JPG
http://vincentp.net/pics/knife/tip/DSC03253%20(Large).JPG
http://vincentp.net/pics/knife/tip/DSC03254%20(Large).JPG
http://vincentp.net/pics/knife/tip/DSC03255%20(Large).JPG

[zenheretic]

Don't most tires these days have metal in them?

I'm not sure there is a right hand tool to cut tires. Ever watch that tv show called "Dirtiest Jobs"? They had an episode on tire recycling. It was all mechanised heavy duty stuff. I think shears would be next to useless in most tires.

[zenheretic]

Nice pics Vincent. If you want a prestine knife don't use it. :)

Those tiny little missing tips just happen with hard use IMO. Even good ole tool steels like shovels and picks would those tiny points. ;)

[spoonrobot]

Here are some pics of my tips.

http://vincentp.net/pics/knife/tip/DSC03250%20(Large).JPG


I've been following this thread and misunderstood how you are breaking your tips until I saw this picture. It seems like a lot of the respondents in this thread assumed you were breaking much larger portions of the knife that you actually are. You should describe it as "tip chipping," it's not as misleading (maybe it is, but it's hard to describe).

I chose to respond because what you are experiencing is something I experience too. I have had the tips chip off at least 5-6 knives of differing steels and find that the overall thickness (or thinness) of the grind is more of a factor than the blade steel.

It seems like there are a few ways to avoid damage but all of them require modification to the knife. When I broke a tip I usually just sharpened the knife regularly and it would only be a few strokes until the damage disappeared. Looks like you would be able to do the same thing fairly easily so long as the damage is only a few millimeters.

Check out the tips on the Strider and the Para, notice the breakage does not exceed the actual edge bevel.

[The General]

You need a small fixed blade in a tough steel like A2 or 12C27 if you need stainless.

Otherwise look at a brand like Columbia River who make knives from very tough stainless steels.

You can't have a steel that does everything. Something has to give and you are not understanding the limits or features of the steels.

I have chipped the tip on several knives. Never fun, but cutting the type of rubber you are talking about if it is the type used in car tires is VERY hard on ANY tool.

Someone buy this guy a crowbar and sharpen it please.:D

[The Mastiff]

Note: A2 is a carbon steel. A good one too. Not many folding A2 knives around. Joe

[SpydercoKnut]

Sir

If you broke a tip on a Strider then that is definately one tough tire you were cutting. I would try using a carbon steel like D2 or A2 or 1095.

:spyder:

[David Lowry]

Hey Vincent,

I think that it looks like you only broke off like a 1/16" of an inch or so. I dont' think that is a big deal. That's pretty darn good for cutting through a tire. ;)

Say, you'll have to make a new thread and let us know how you like the Captain. Maybe give us a little review. I want one of those now that I have experienced a Spyderco liner lock.

[Vincent]

Sir

If you broke a tip on a Strider then that is definately one tough tire you were cutting. I would try using a carbon steel like D2 or A2 or 1095.

:spyder:


Tip on a DP sng is not all to strong, I talked to its creator and it is really really common.



Hey Vincent,

I think that it looks like you only broke off like a 1/16" of an inch or so. I dont' think that is a big deal. That's pretty darn good for cutting through a tire. ;)

Say, you'll have to make a new thread and let us know how you like the Captain. Maybe give us a little review. I want one of those now that I have experienced a Spyderco liner lock.


ok dave i will a little later.

[markg]

From the looks the pictures, you are really not breaking off the tips of the knife, but really the leading forward edge.

This is to be expected with good hard use. Edges will chip, ding, roll, dull, or wear with use.

Maybe Ed's response on sharpening the tips is of value in regards to this.

[LJK]

Nice pic's but I wouldn't even consider that a broken tip. All my hard use knives look like that or worst at one time or another. I'd touch em up and keep on cutting. Check back in when you snap off a 1/4 inch or so (not that I would know anything about that :o )

[Chucula]

I was expecting 1/2 a cm missing :confused:

I wouldn't complain about that damage. I bet it is more geometry than steel.

[Mr Blonde]

After seeing those pics, I don't consider these to be 'broken tips' at all. Many of my carry knives had tips like that. In all cases I was able to restore them on my Sharpmaker. Sideways they might look microscopically 'rounded' but viewed from the spine, they're still sharp as needles. More importantly, the tips can get sharp enough again to slice out newsprint articles without damaging the surface below.


Wouter

[scout]

You could always edc a Lum tanto and never have to worry:D Minor tip damage like your pics indicate has happened to many of my knives. Ed's advice is wise as usual.

[tonyfromky]

Yah I was under the assumption a 1/4" or something was being snapped off.

The only thing I'd recommend is that you jam something in the kerf behind the knife so the tire can't close on the blade.

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: Honestly, ya might consider a sawzall reciprocating saw and a ghostbusters back mounted power unit.:cool: