Blade Length opnions?

[Formerly Nervous]

I was wondering.. Ive seen a few opnions onthe super large folders, most that they are unnecessary.. but.. now that winter is aproaching us, and alot of ppl are wearing heavy clothing, tough nylon coats.. several layers of clothing if different materials and different thinknesses..what do the subscribers think is the best composition for an all around defense blade?



Ive allways been a fan of 4" blades on folders.. at least for defensive purposes.. Id like a well built 5" but that pushes legal issues as well as carry and concealment issues. Most Spydies are around 3" .. and all though I love my first spydie (my delica) I think it a tad short for the drag needed to cut through multiple layers of a coat and clothing. I guess the serrated blades would assist greatly.. but im not at all a fan of serrations.. its just a prefrence issue, and prbably what im used to.

My next purchase will most likely be a Police model. But Id love to hear perspective on what others think about this. I know with fire arms.. the common thing to do in winter is to move up in caliber.. because you can conceal the larger weapon more eaisly and because the bullets need more penetration and kenetic energy for the heavier clothing(not to mention the crap they have in the pockets that the bullet may come into contact with)

You're correct in the observation that a longer blade will drag more edge through the target which would either make a massive/deep wound channel if applied under ideal conditions from the base of the edge to the tip, but if all one can manage from an unorthodox position under stress is catching the target with the last inch or so, at least a small cut could be applied as opposed to a total miss.

For your winter clothing scenario, I think you've got the right idea all the way. I'm guessing you are also wearing heavier clothing or layers? If so, concealability of larger(but legal) bladed knives should be easier. I don't know what your legal limits are, or what you personally consider 'pushing' the limits are, but I feel you aren't pushing until you hit the exact limit, IMO. If you can only carry 4" blades, I suggest you carry a few in different locations on your body.

I personally love the police model but I have noticed that the military has slightly better cutting/slashing geometry. The Starmate is also a great choice, it has a stouter blade and just feels tough through and through. With the Civilian you could get a lot more cutting edge in a compact blade, but thrusts are sacrificed and most of the Civies are serrated(I'm not crazy about serrations either) and on top of serrations is the aggressive hook/claw tip which could potentially snag or get stuck on something between the top layer of clothing( like a winter jacket) to the flesh. Even if you keep your grip on the stuck knife, remember every second your weapon arm is extended out towards your opponent, it is a major target for either a counter cut or a grapple. A good practice is to put yourself in an opponents place and find out what you would do if say, their blade got snagged up somewhere in your heavy jacket with little or no damage to you.

As far as opinions on whether larger blades are neccessary or not, everyone is coming from our own perspectives because that is the only thing we know for sure. If a 6'+ person says a 2" blade is all they really need, then I'll have to take their word for it, I don't know what that is like. I'm not 'blessed' with a large frame, I'm only 5'7" and I've learned from sparring people(mostly taller than me) over the years that what is practical and right for me in the area of weapons is that when facing a bigger opponent, I'm going to want a bigger weapon cause every shot you take could be fatal.

For those of you who don't know what it's like to face off with larger opponents, try to imagine fighting a mountain lion or wolf, they are armed with short natural blades and can be highly agressive, would you want a folder or a bowie or a machete?
Now how about facing a lion or bear that's taller/bigger than you(I've known guys almost that big). 2" blade, or something larger?
I've accepted that if I'm going to be attacked, It'll most likely be by someone larger than I, and more aggressive, add on that a weapon that most likely doesn't conform to local legalities(bowie, dagger, etc.) and I have an obligation to myself to be armed as far as my jurisdiction will allow, and if I still fail, so be it, I did all I could legitimately do.

take care,
Ken

[Dijos]

keep in mind that if it's cold out, you'll be wearing gloves, and I'd rather have a huge handled knife in my gloved hands which, with few exeptions, means a bigger blade

[Formerly Nervous]

Ok.. so it would seem that if it is practicle and legal to carry a bigger blade.. then, in general, it would be a preferable option to carry the bigger blade.
Now, in relation to Spydies..there are only a hand full of options that have a blade length of 4" or greater. Not that these options (chinook, and police) arent good options they do seem somewhat limiting.

If you meant the variety of choices of blades in that class, you are right. Sal has expressed in several instances that they(Spyderco) are generally heading towards the smaller blade sizes in future production pieces. I guess I'm one of just a few that have urged them to not neglect the need for models in that size class. the Police and Military have apparently been good sellers for a long time as examples. On the bright side, Spyderco is introducing more fixed blade options in the future, most of which are 4"+ that I know of, and it is much appreciated.

The Endura is also great choice for that size class as well, I carry mine as a left hand blade. Nice for utility and many people carry these for self preservation.

Ken

Edited by - KenN on 11/30/2001 11:55:37 AM

[Formerly Nervous]

I have to agree on the Endura.. in fact I think that will be my next purchase.. since I've fell in love with my Delica. I am a little torn between a Military, Police or Terzoula at this time with heavy concideration of the Chinook. I wish I had a dealer here that actually had a decent stock selection of these knives for a side-by-side compairison.
I cant wait to see the Street Bowie.. Im hoping the handel is more flat in nature, like a blank wrapped with cord or simply had some flat scales on it. I believe a 5" bowie design would be awsome for the streets. Hey.. thanks for you input and time.. its apriciated.

[Michael Janich]

Dear Nervous, Dijos, and KenN:

Congratulations on a very cool thread with lots of well-reasoned input.

Two additional suggestions as winter hits and clothing gets thicker:

1) Take a look through your closet or go down to Goodwill and get an old winter coat for testing. Just like patterning a shotgun to find out how it REALLY shoots with a particular load, it's a good idea to know how your knife REALLY cuts on various media. In MBC classes, I demonstrate on "Pork Man" (one of the lesser-known superheroes) -- a 3-4 pound pork roast, butterflied, tied around a 1-inch dowel with butcher twine, and wrapped with several layers of plastic wrap. This provides a pretty good simulation of a human upper arm. Make the dowel long enough to secure one end in a vise or Workmate. Dress it up in the sleeve of the winter coat and, VERY CAREFULLY cut at it to see how your knife does. Don't load up to cut with great power, but rather make your cuts simulate the type you could really pull off in the dynamics of a fight. Examine each cut and work scientifically to determine the effects of things like loose vs. tight clothing, seams, buttons, etc. Also try thrusting and note your results. This is a great reality check that will probably cost you less than $20, yet provides priceless insight. If you're really on a budget, you can also make good targets from rolls of paper towel or foam rubber wrapped around wooden dowels and secured with stout twine and/or duct tape.

IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTE: LIVE-BLADE CUTTING SHOULD ONLY BE ATTEMPTED BY ADVANCED PRACTITIONERS WHO HAVE HAD THE BENEFIT OF TRAINING WITH QUALIFIED INSTRUCTORS. IF YOU ARE NOT HIGHLY SKILLED, DO NOT ATTEMPT ANY LIVE-BLADE CUTTING TESTS. SPYDERCO AND MICHAEL JANICH DISCLAIM ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY INJURY OF ANY KIND THAT MAY RESULT FROM THE USE OR MISUSE OF THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS FORUM.

2) Remember that when the going gets tough, the smart adapt. If your favorite targets are now safely (or at least more safely) snuggled beneath a big fat coat, adjust your tactics to go for more available targets. One favorite target in my MBC classes is the thigh, just above the knee. This is rarely covered by a coat, fabric tension is usually pretty high (making a good cut more likely), and the result of severing the quadricep or tendon insertion for same is an immediate collapse of that leg. It's not "defanging the snake" per se, but the effect is just as desirable. Fingers and hands are also viable substitutes for wrists and forearms.

Stay safe,

mike j