Carry Options

[Clay Kesting]

G'day Mike,



You mentioned in a previous thread that you usually carry 3 folders and I was wondering what positions you find most useful and whether they are tip-up or tip-down. OK I know the Delica is tip-up <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> but what about the Tempests?



I've been experimenting with IWB carry after reading your comments in &quot;Street Steel&quot; (thanks hy). I usually carry IWB when I'm wearing shorts but with jeans I've found that the clip sits right on the seam of the waistband causing it to stick out too far and get caught on unsuspecting objects <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>. The only position which avoids this problem is over the appendix (or where it used to be <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>) as the knife is at an angle and the clip doesn't reach the seam. However that's not the end of my problems as I usually wear a belt which is great for hiding the clip but makes it difficult to withdraw the knife if it is tip-up (which I prefer). It's not such a problem with tip-down as I can just grasp the top of the knife, particularly if there is a lot of knife showing like the Military, but with tip-up the thumb is deep below the waistband and there is nothing for the opposing finger to grasp.



At the moment I move my knife around depending on what I'm wearing, in the pocket with jeans, IWB with shorts or trousers with slash pockets. However I would like to find one position which worked no matter what clothes I had on. At the moment the appendix postion seems the most likely although it may require changing to tip-down. I also like the small of the back but it also seems to work better tip -up and there's still the problem of the clip riding on the seam. Maybe I should push for longer clips (or buy a different brand of jeans). Am I the only one who has a problem with this?



Clay



"The trouble is that you think you have time."

[hy]

Hi Clay, I know you addressed the question to Mike but just throwing my 2 cents in due to an abundance of spare time...<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>...hope you don't mind.

i think IWB would be best when you know that you aren't going to be using the knife for a while(eg when going for a meeting with your accountant or lawyer/ functions like dinner parties etc). In addition, you would be wearing slacks in those sorts of situations which makes it easier to carry IWB.

The only other situation when i'm carrying IWB is when i'm going to the gym or running....wearing shorts makes it easier to accss as well.

I've found it difficult to access both the tip up as well as the tip down when wearing jeans (usually Levis). I carry the native nowadays and wish that it was tip down as i prefer to spyder drop it. For me, the best thing to do is to adjust my carry style according to the situation.

Would be really interested to see what Mike thinks.

&quot;A lawyer with his briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns&quot; - Don Vito Corleone

Edited by - hy on 11/30/2001 4:33:38 PM

[Michael Janich]

Dear Clay and Hy:

Thanks for the question and your patience in waiting for my reply.

I have tried just about every variation of carry that you can think of and keep coming back to three. In order of preference: 1) tip-up carry clipped to the top of the pocket 2) clipless carry in the back pocket, edge down, point to the right, and 3) open folder or fixed blade in a neck sheath.

Carry clipped to the top of the pocket puts the knife close to my hand and keeps it below an untucked shirt. It also allows me to draw to different positions -- either straight up to position for a strike with the closed knife, straight to an opening, or just to sneak the knife into my hand. The latter is especialy useful because the typical stick-your-thumb-in-your-pocket hanging around posture puts your hand right on the knife. As the hand comes out naturally, the knife comes out almost invisibly. From there, a silent opening will get me ready if things go sour, and a silent and stealthy closing will allow me to put the knife away without alarming anyone around me.

Both my Tempests ride clipped to my pockets, though the lack of a left-hand clip requires some changes on the left-hand side (I designed it for reversible left-right tip-up carry, but MOD insisted they were smarter than I am).

My feelings on tip-up/tip-down have been expressed pretty clearly in my articles and on this forum, but in a nutshell, tip-up allows you to grasp, draw, open and use the knife with almost no adjustment to your grip. Although many Spyder-drop fans claim the same, this opening typically ends up with a pinched foil grip on the blade that is only good for a moderate cutting action on the initial stroke. To prove your draw-open-cut action, do it with a folding trainer an hit something resilient. If your grip stays together and you're hitting hard, you're doing something right.

With that said, my back pocket carry IS designed for a Spyder-drop (blade grip/handle swing) opening. Reach in the pocket with your palm toward you, find the blade hole, withdraw the knife and drop the handle to open. The reason this works for me is that the knife I use is a Delica, which is small enough to allow me to open and cut with a three-finger Filipino grip without having to adjust first. Also, this is a backup and used mostly for utility purposes.

If you don't have a consistent pocket style in your wardrobe or spend a lot of time sitting, I also like neck sheath carry (actually, I've been carrying my Ronin design pretty consistently lately, so increase my total carry to 4). This requires a two-hand action to draw (left hand clears the shirt by pulling up and out, right hand reaches underneath), but can be very fast and very comfortable.

The main reason I don't like IWB carry for a folder is that I can't be as sneaky about my draw and it's easier for someone at close range to foul the draw because it requires a more dramatic arm motion (i.e. lifting the elbow higher). It also doesn't work as well from disadvantaged positions (if you really want to test your draw, get a trainer and try drawing while you grapple. You'll quickly discover that any bend in your waist -- a common occurance in grappling -- makes IWB carry and drawing pretty uncomfortable.). By canting the knife into the crease of the hip (often called a &quot;groin-line&quot; carry or &quot;felony&quot; carry), it's more comfortable and the draw angle goes further back instead of up. This works pretty well if you're thin and if the knife's clip position gives you enough handle to grasp. Compared to pocket carry, it also protects the knife from a grab by your opponent.

The bottom line is that daily carry of a weapon is a serious commitment and must become part of YOU. Since we are all different in various ways, it makes sense that carry styles should differ as well. As I say in my MBC classes, &quot;I don't care if you fight like me, as long as you fight WELL.&quot; Train hard and test your carry method with a good folding trainer to see if you can perform under realistic, stressful conditions. Real performance is always more important than theory.

I hope this helps.

Train hard, be sneaky, stay safe,

mike j

[Clay Kesting]

G'day Mike,

Thank you for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply (hy, mate I appreciate your comments also). Your comments have cleared up a number of issues for me.

It seems that I will have to put up with different carry positions depending on my clothes for the day. This is not the same problem for me as it might be for others as my knife is not my primary weapon and will only be drawn as a last resort. In fact the times when I'm most likely to need to defend myself are the times when I'm least likely to have a knife at all. The law here prohibits carrying a knife in a public place without a lawful excuse and, while I can find plenty of excuses during the daytime, it's pretty hard to think of a lawful excuse if your going out for drinks and dinner. Under those circumstances you would be in a difficult legal postition if you used your knife to defend yourself. OTOH who's going to worry about an old man with his cane <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.

Clay

"The trouble is that you think you have time."

[hy]

Mike and Clay, thanks for all the constructive comments. Mike, out of curiosity, are your MOD Tempests plain edged, serrated or partially serrated? It's just that i've found that a 50/50 or 60/40 edge works best for my style of cutting as I tend to do a lot of slicing cuts starting with the back part of the blade first. ALthough I've only used my knife for utility purposes so far, i was just wondering what about your opinion on such a cutting style for self defence. Thanks.

[Michael Janich]

Dear Hy:

I carry one plain edged and one 50/50. The 50/50, in my experience, cuts better because it allows you to start the cut with the heel of the blade (the portion of the edge nearest the handle) and draw the entire edge through the target. This works very well going through clothing because the serrations open the material and the rest of the edge finishes the job without snagging as fully-serrated blades sometimes do.

I hope this helps.

Stay safe,

mike j

[Knife Knut]

Michael, how is Sal's sigmate project working out?

Knife Knut on a shoestring budget.

[Michael Janich]

Dear KnifeKnut:

I'm not familiar with that one. Sal always has a lot of projects in the works and it's hard to keep up. Maybe you should start a new thread and ask him directly.

Stay safe,

mike j

[Knife Knut]

Whoops! I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing; Sal has nothing to do with this patent, as I first thought.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&amp;r=1&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;co1=AND&amp;d=ft00&amp;s1='Sigmate+ shaped'&amp;OS=&quot;Sigmate+shaped&quot;&amp;RS=&quot;Sigmate+shaped&quot;

I will make sure Sal sees this.

Edited by - Knife Knut on 12/5/2001 5:21:42 PM