What about the burr?

[bell]

I have used the Sharpmaker with great success, not hair popping success but I am a hero with the MIL and family with kitchen knives. Wanting to get even better, I began reading about sharpening. One constant theme is the burr.

With the sharpmaker however, because you are doing both sides at the same time, a burr will never emerge. Maybe this is not a big deal cause the knives come out plenty sharp. But there is this little voice that says, "you need to raise a burr".

[yablanowitz]

In my pigheaded opinion, raising a burr is how you know for certain you have removed more steel than you needed to. About the only time I try to raise a burr is when completely reprofiling at a new angle while simultaneously repairing a chipped or nicked edge. Usually when I do that, I'm trying to get rid of fatigued steel, so I hog off a bunch.

[bh49]

With the sharpmaker however, because you are doing both sides at the same time, a burr will never emerge. ".

I am not so sure about this. A little while ago, when I started to use sharpmaker I was able to put very sharp edge, which didn't last long and I posted question about it on BF. IIRC Cliff Stamp replyed (and I believe that in most cases he knows what he is talking about) that even alternationg strokes with sharpmaker you are still raising very uneven microburr, which need to be removed. Somebody gave me a link to discussion about burr removal, where I found a Jeff Clark's technique, which I am using for more than a year and this improved sharpness of my knives a lot.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3152114&postcount=14

By Jeff Clark
"Here's how I would handle this with the Sharpmaker. Scrub your rods with hot water and sink cleanser, rinse. Put the medium rods in the "40-degree" (20-degree honing angle) slots in the Sharpmaker base, rotated to hone on the flats. Lay a D-cell flashlight battery on its side and use it as a fulcrum to support the center of the Sharpmaker base--like a teeter-totter. Tip the base to the right and lightly stroke on the right hand rod (which is now at around a 40-degree angle from vertical). Tip the base to the left and lightly stroke on the left hand rod. Repeat this process for only the minimum number of strokes to remove all trace of the burr. Use very light pressure and alternate left/right sides.
The next part of the process is to put on a true edge that is as thin as you want. I suspect that your freehand honing is giving you a more accute edge than you are getting with your standard Sharpmaker angles. So step one is to forget about using the "40-degree" setting. In fact, don't even use the "30-degree" setting on the Sharpmaker as-is. Move the medium rods into the "30-degree" slots, but rotate them to hone on the edges of the rods. Replace the battery fulcrum with a white Sharpmaker rod fulcrum. This time you are going to tip the base to the RIGHT and hone on the LEFT hand rod (which is now at under 10-degrees from vertical). Likewise you will tilt the base to the left and hone on the right hand rod. Use light pressure so that you don't bend the edge of the knife as you stroke the narrow edges of the rods. Only do about 10 strokes (5 per side) alternating left/right as you go. Do this the minimum number of strokes until the edge feels extremely sharp and slices paper effortlessly. Rotate the rods to use the flats and do about another 10 strokes using light pressure. Switch to the flats of the white rods (switch to using a medium rod as your fulcrum) and do another set of 10 light strokes. To give the edge a little more strength (and to compensate for a tendency for the edge to bend away from the rod as you hone) you want to finish honing at a higher angle. You could remove the fulcrum and just use the basic "30-degree" (15-degree honing angle) of the Sharpmaker. But humor me and try using a lower angle. Take one of the Sharpmaker brass guard rods and use it as a fulcrum under the center of the Sharpmaker base. Again you want to tilt-right/hone-left and tilt-left/hone-right, but you want to use almost zero pressure against the rods as you hone ever-so-gently. You do this maybe only 6 strokes (3 per side alternating). If you had some Spyderco Ultra-fine grit rods this would be the time to use them."

[JD Spydo]

If you use the diamond rods/stones for the 204 Sharpmaker and just do one side at a time you will raise a burr. It is inevitable if you do it that way. Because if you ever get to watch the RAZOR EDGE video that comes with the RAZOR EDGE Sharpening system you will see that is the procedure that they show you for proper re-profiling.

I see what Yablanowitz is talking about because when you get right down to it technically he is right on. However unless I am doing a major re-profiling job on a knife that has been through "hell & gone" I very rarely raise a burr anymore.

Also with all of these newer super alloys we are making cutlery with now a days it is getting tougher and tougher to raise a burr without literally working your tail off.

If you follow the protocol either on the video and/or booklet that comes with the 204 Sharpmaker you will have excellent results if you follow that protocol to the T. Sharpening is a skill. It's not as easy as falling off a log. It truly takes a lot of practice to get the methodology down pat.

The best advice I can give is to practice on a lot of your older USERS before doing one of your new Spyders with super blade steel.

[Lostification]

OORRRRR, instead of all this stupidity, you just send your knife back to the factory for resharpening and use a backup knife in that 2.5 weeks time. Hehe! :o

I've ruined too many knives, already. :p

[bh49]

OORRRRR, instead of all this stupidity, you just send your knife back to the factory for resharpening and use a backup knife in that 2.5 weeks time. Hehe! :o

I've ruined too many knives, already. :p

Just get a sharpmaker, it will be fun.

[Lostification]

Well, they ain't exactly cheap!

I suppose one could sell the sharpmaker if it doesn't work out. :o

Right now I ruin my knives with Arkansas stones.:D

Oh, btw, just a quick question. How does one get rid of a burr anyhow? From pictures I have seen, it literally looks like your purposely blunting the newly sharpened edge. Is that right??? O_o

[Bolster]

"Lay a D-cell flashlight battery on its side and use it as a fulcrum..."

I just have to say, my emotional opinion here, is that this sort of gerrymandering and McGyvering is so very, very wrong--unless you LIKE to McGyver (I don't). We shouldn't have to introduce these additional variables, like see-sawing over a battery, into the equation. The Sharpmaker base should take care of these issues for us. The Sharpmaker needs an update.

Until there's a 21st century Sharpmaker, I use 3, yes 3, different sharpening jigs. Sharpmaker, Lansky, and Edge Pro. Each does something well that the others can't.

Sharpmaker: Excels at light, utility-edge sharpening especially on hard-to-sharpen shapes, such as serrations, kris, and etc. Downside is that it allows unseen user wobble. Moving human arms simply aren't accurate to within a few degrees, which is the achilles heel of the Sharpmaker. I find it easier to get "scary sharp" with the other two jigs, but Sharpmaker will take me to a good useable edge and it's very convenient (once the reprofiling is done). Another downside is its well documented inability to reprofile efficiently.

Lots of people dis the Lansky but nothing can touch it for precision and accuracy and repeatability on small blades (provided you do your OWN trigonometry, don't rely on the Lansky settings, or you'll likely be grinding much steeper angles than you think, particularly on deep leaf-style blades). Downside is it's not convenient for a quick resharpen. To do a good job you should reclamp exactly the same way; I actually take photos of clamp positions so I can do this (a hassle). Also it does poorly with large blades. And the coarse diamond stone wears much more quickly than it should.

Edge Pro is great for accurate reprofiling, if the knife grind is cooperative. By cooperative I mean big and flat. Harder to use on smaller blades, difficult on complex shapes (tho it will handle most of them) and virtually impossible on recurves and serrations. There is no clamp, so you must rely on your hand to do the clamping, which introduces human error. If I could only have one sharpener this would be it, but it isn't perfect, or even close to it.

So my message is this: there is no one ideal sharpening jig, and we can't expect the Sharpmaker to do it all well. Although it could do much better with a few more angles in the base, and a way to remove the wrist-wobble problem.

Strong opinions, yes. Remember my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

[bowarrow2000]

I freehand all of my knives. That is the way you got your knives sharp back in the old days. For serious reprofiling the blade goes almost flat to the stone. I do keep a eye on the bevel on both sides to make sure it stays even until I feel like enough steel has been removed. Then I raise the blade up to 20 deg. (+/-) and go for the cuttting edge. I use DMT benchstones, they are simple to use and easy to clean. It's not rocket engineering but it works. Even the rounded edge on an old crock jar does a fair job.

[Lostification]

In reply to Bolstermanic-

Orrrrr


OORRRRR, instead of all this stupidity, you just send your knife back to the factory for resharpening

lol

[Bolster]

Send back to the factory for a resharpen? Hmm, 15 minutes here, or two weeks waiting for the shipping to and from Golden. Let me think about that.

(I couldn't help but notice your sad icon that you are waiting for your Delica to be factory resharpened).

[Lostification]

Hahahaha, yes, I know. One and a half weeks to go still.:rolleyes:

Dont mind me, I'm just playin. :D

[MAT888]

In my pigheaded opinion, raising a burr is how you know for certain you have removed more steel than you needed to. About the only time I try to raise a burr is when completely reprofiling at a new angle while simultaneously repairing a chipped or nicked edge. Usually when I do that, I'm trying to get rid of fatigued steel, so I hog off a bunch.

To some agree i feel the same. However i would like to put some remarks.

As we are are spoiled with new sophisticated high HRC stainlesses the burr question is an issue when reprofiling and not touching up a little less sharp edge. The older stuff knives with less HRC and soft carbon steels tend to be treated in a harder fashion and indeed more fatigued material should be removed.

The newer steels to me seem to take an easier almost unnoticable burr on ceramic stones as they do on diamant stones.....

So i tend to maintain them on diamond stones and very light no pressure Polishing on Ceramic stones and leather.

:o

[bh49]

Well, they ain't exactly cheap!


True. Sharpmaker + shipping about $50. Ship knife to Spyderco and back five times is $50 also. I am sharpening my EDCs in average every two weeks + kitchen knives, so within two months it is paid off. :cool:



Oh, btw, just a quick question. How does one get rid of a burr anyhow? From pictures I have seen, it literally looks like your purposely blunting the newly sharpened edge. Is that right??? O_o

Basically, you created edge on the corners of stones, but with little burr.
Set up flats, increase an angle. Make couple very light passes on each side and than continue to polish edge at correct angle. It works very well for me.

[MAT888]

If you really have screwed up cut into the stone twice each side /if you don't have diamond stones take some coarse sandpaper strapped to some flat wood or something else flat.. look if you got rit of all the "off "looking stuff, after that about 45 angle each side 2 light passes on the greys. What a pity resharpen again. But you got rid of the weak material.

Good luck :eek: :cool: :p

What use is 10 blunted knives stached away in a drawer... I try to investe in learning and getting equipments to get them working again.

[Simple Man]

One of the main, consistant comments I notice from first time Sharpmaker owners is that by the time they got it it was long overdue. In my case, it turned my EDC Spydies from "ehh okay" sharp to past factory sharp.

It also renewed my desire for Spydies because I had just about forgotten how sharp they were out of the box, and hence how sharp a knife I could carry on a day to day basis. For me I became less afraid of using them, because that factory sharp would not be gone forever once I had used the knife a bit.

My point is that yes, it costs around $50, but to be able to carry a factory sharp knife once, the first time, versus being able to carry a factory sharp (or better) knife every day for the next 3, 5, even 10 years is well worth the price.

[jaislandboy]

I don't have one yet but the Byrd Duckfoot sharpener should alleviate the "wobble" that can sometimes occur with the 204 sharpmaker.......
but you're stuck with a "coarse" diamond grit though.....I spend most my time stropping on leather however, just to maintain the factory sharp edge of my clipits.... If aggressive reprofiling is needed, diamonds are needed for these harder "super steels".... :rolleyes: