SD Question: No Knife Allowed, What's Your Next Choice?

[Bolster]

I've been reading the threads on knife arrests, confiscations, knives not being allowed on ships, etc. If you are in a situation where you can't carry a gun or a knife, and you think you may need to protect yourself and/or family, what's your next best option for a SD tool? Anything goes, from shiny kung-fu product to tools from Home Depot to bare hand, but practical suggestions are appreciated.

Now I realize the efficacy of these options depends entirely on training. So, to be specific, I'm asking what YOUR non-knife option would be, given your current training (or lack of same) and your preferences. (No need to remind me that training is everything, I already know that.) Do you ever EDC your "next option" (assuming it's not bare hand) or do you ever carry it as a complement to your knife?

[spyderdog]

I have zero training with anything. I normally carry a surefire E2D flashlight along with a knife. I think a bright light could at least cause a slight hesitation in someone coming after you, and you can deliver a pretty good blow with some of these flashlights.

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: Flashlight over 60 lumens. One that's suitable as a fist load and has a tail switch not a twist switch. one that doesn't have a silly ninjafied name is even better:spyder:

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: These are also beyond amazing, pretty much nigh indestructible, and will pass any security checkpoint in the world, especially if you sand off the lettering. http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?follow-pro=2&vwcatalog=csstoreonline&catalog=csstoreonline&query=sharkie&x=0&y=0

[Th232]

Personally, I carry an impact karambit (need to get a new clip for it though). Other than that, flashlight, various little nasties like a Comtech Stinger derivative, stuff like that.

[Stenny]

My pick would be a hardened expandable baton. Yes, I EDC it.
But if some place prohibits knives, it will probably prohibit batons as well. So my next pick would be some good, strong flashlight, optimally with strike bezel, aka cookie cutter.

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: I have and carry a e2d but I'm looking to get an e2e as it's less ninjafied in appearance and won't eat through my pocket as fast. The more weaponized in appearance an object is the more likely it is to get taken at a checkpoint as the guards get more savvy. Usable as a weapon is different from designed to be used as a weapon. I no longer think a crenulated bezel's marginal increase in striking concentration is worth the scary fightin' designed look and the word "defender" engraved on the side. YMMV;) :spyder:

[Dr. Snubnose]

Things I might use: Work Boots, Belt, Eyeglasses, Credit Card (my favorite in the top shirt pocket), Kubotan, Flashlight, ASP Baton 5" model, Umbrella, Walking Cane, Briefcase, Magazine, Newspaper, Towel, Paracord, Pen, Book, Travel Wrench Karambit, Yo-Yo.....Doc:D

[yablanowitz]

I have carried a Parker stainless Classic every day for over thirty years that would make a pretty good stabbing tool if needed, and I carry a Coast Tac Torch that is in that 60 lumen class, but I don't consider either to be a weapon. For that matter, I don't consider my knives to be weapons any more than any other object.

If the place in question does not allow guns or knives, I have no need to go there. Sure, I could improvise with something else, but I and I alone am responsible for my safety. If a place tells me I am not allowed to carry any means of defending myself, they are telling me I am not wanted there. They are telling criminals that there is a supply of unarmed victims here, and I will not be one of them.

[KaliGman]

I would carry a Surefire flashlight (I have several to choose from and would probably carry two and some spare batteries). The lights can be used to temporarily blind attackers and as striking tools, as already indicated here. In reality, I carry the lights more as lights--it if is dark and someplace you are traveling looks dangerous, light it up and see what is there. This way you can avoid trouble rather than confront it.

I love batons, but, if gun and knife carry is verboten, then carrying a baton or stick is usually straight out as well.

I happen to like ink pens, as in I have a lot of them. I am not particularly attracted to some of the really high dollar ones (like Mont Blanc, classic Waterman pens, etc.) but have a few different brands around. In general, I like Sensa, because of the gel grip (I tend to over grip a pen when doing a lot of writing and the gel grip is very comfortable and prevents writers' cramp). When I fly internationally and am not allowed to bring my firearm, baton and a ton of other goodies on board the aircraft as I do when flying domestic as a federal agent, I usually put one of the thin, fairly inexpensive chrome Cross pens in my breast pocket. These are not my favorite to write with, but beat the devil out of cheap giveaway pens and are capable of inflicting some nasty and deep punctures. With kali training, such a pen has a myriad of uses, and, for that matter, there are any number of common objects found around a household (or airliner) that can also be used to augment your "arsenal."

What I generally rely on is training and self awareness. Tools are nice and I carry them if possible. Awareness gets you out of most things, maturity gets you out of others (as I grew up I found myself less willing to go to dangerous places simply because I could or to fight for "status" or perceived insult). If things get really bad and I have to fight, in the particular scenario that you are proposing, in many instances I would finish things empty handed and never draw a device. If I can't avoid trouble, I am basically hoping that it decides to get up close and personal where my years of empty hand training and the skills it developed can be effective. At very close range, I will draw a device if possible or necessary, but empty hand is faster as I don't have to draw anything. Hopefully, the bad guys get close and have good taste in firearms so that I am happy with the tools they just gave me after they are on the ground bleeding:eek:. Oh--the last line there indicates two other things to cultivate--aggressiveness and confidence. Do not be overly macho or stupid, but, when there is no recourse but to fight: fight as aggressively as possible and put your attackers down hard and fast; your mental attitude should be one of supreme confidence--you should have already won this confrontation in your mind because doubt equals hesitation, hesitation equals failure in this environment, and if you believe you are beaten you are beaten.

[David Lowry]

:spyder: Flashlight over 60 lumens. One that's suitable as a fist load and has a tail switch not a twist switch. one that doesn't have a silly ninjafied name is even better:spyder:

Exactly. I learned this just last Friday night.

I now have a Surefire 6P. It's pictured below.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/davidlowry/EDC9-21-07.jpg

I also agree with KaliGman. I think ink pens can do crazy damage!

[bigkahunasix]

I wear steel toed work boots daily, and carry the following:

Cross pen in shirt pocket

6P in belt holster

E2E or E2D in jacket pocket

Perrin change sap- (TSA friendly)

Traditional crook handle cane- doctor ordered but handy just the same

and of course, my best weapon- my brain

BK6

[Lostification]

I was just about to say a solid fine point ink pen along with a surefire over 60 lumens or higher with a metal strike bezel. But I guess everyone beat me to it. :D

Make sure if it's a pen, that it has a good lock and a fine point. Even a fine point won't break, not many people realize how tough pens are.:o

[Stenny]

Well, it just occured to me: As far as "passable through a checkpoint" goes, I would pick steel toed boots and a solid pen.
If worst come to worst, anything heavy/long and flexible/pointy/full of corners and edges... and even some things that don't fit into any of these categories. :o

[Chucula]

As far as I am concerned, any object that I can handle is a potential weapon. In most cases, my first option is my fist. Then I have my bookbag (laptop and a few notebooks). After that, it is whatever I find in the environment.

I have no training and no skills. :D

[224477]

expandable baton /ASP/, kubotan, plastic impact weapons like Stinger or knuckles, blackjack or sap..
I would say the options are rather endless.

[butch]

dirt and a rock

cave man blind (dirt in eyes) and strike
2nd and slower to deploy would be belt wraped fist
and if they are unarmed
remember one of the fastest way to stop a fight is braking arms and legs (less your the black knight from monty python)

[Th232]

Things I might use: Work Boots, Belt, Eyeglasses, Credit Card (my favorite in the top shirt pocket), Kubotan, Flashlight, ASP Baton 5" model, Umbrella, Walking Cane, Briefcase, Magazine, Newspaper, Towel, Paracord, Pen, Book, Travel Wrench Karambit, Yo-Yo.....Doc:D

Read: everything.

Right Doc?:D

[malice4you]

I almost always am carrying my knives - but the few times when I don't, I have pens and a flashlight on me. I also carry keys, but I'd go for the flashlight and pen (parker with a stainless steel outer casing). I also wear steel toed boots 99% of the time that I'm out. Being 6'2" probably doesn't hurt either....

I also am a photographer, and I will sometimes have a monopod with me (a one legged tripod). They are great for stabilizing the camera indoors while using fast (but heavy) lenses, and are made of aluminum. I've brought them through security checkpoints multiple times without question, since I am a press photographer. I also have been allowed to bypass security in some places. I wouldn't suggest them for most people, but if I have one on me, and i'm feeling threatened, it would make a very effective baton/club/baseball bat type of device. A few nights ago, I was walking back to my car after covering a football game in an area that's not quite the nicest, I had approx $13,000 in camera gear on me at the time, my cameras were hanging off my neck, and I had my 120 lumen LED flashlight in one hand, and my heavy duty monopod in the other. I also had the rescue 93 and tasman in my pockets.

I'll use whatever I can to my advantage - I am not trained in fighting, but I'll put up a hell of a fight if I need to.

[Agent Starling]

When I can't use my lightsaber, why, I simply rely on Jedi mind tricks! ;)

At minimum I like to have 2 means of SD, ASP pepper spray/Kubotan thing on my keychain. Add-ons are honeycomb, Surefire flashlight if it's nite time, stinger, and a kubotan and pepper spray separately instead of the combo, and when I can remember I like to add in my common sense as well! :D

Wherever I can I do carry a knife plus some or all of the above. Always reassuring to have Plans B, C, D, etc.

Agent Starling

[whitefeather]

When I can't use my lightsaber, why, I simply rely on Jedi mind tricks! ;)
Agent Starling

Yea what she said.

Seriosly though I carry a Viagra Ink Pen

[Dr. Snubnose]

Originally Posted by Dr. Snubnose
Things I might use: Work Boots, Belt, Eyeglasses, Credit Card (my favorite in the top shirt pocket), Kubotan, Flashlight, ASP Baton 5" model, Umbrella, Walking Cane, Briefcase, Magazine, Newspaper, Towel, Paracord, Pen, Book, Travel Wrench Karambit, Yo-Yo.....Doc






Read: everything.

Right Doc?:D

Yes Will...Everything!!!....and Anything!!!!...Doc:D

[Mr Blonde]

Palm sticks or similar object all the way. I've had the good fortune that the Koppo stick was standard part of my Ju Jitsu curriculum, to lay a good foundation. Many hours spent on the mat with my sparring partner without the supervision of my teacher enlightened us to the true potential of the palm stick. :D

I consider a sturdy pen and small flashlight nothing other than regular gentleman's accessories, like a watch (I picked up some wrist-strikes that are surprisingly effective, from a ninjutsu guy) and hankerchief. Try to train how to use walls, doors and floors too, the options are endless.

Wouter

[dete]

tactical flash light

[ozspyder]

So many everyday objects to choose from.....(not counting EDC knives, batons and guns)

When in office clothes, I usually will have a metal pens of some description within easy reach, a bunch of keys on a large keyring and a small flashlight with keys makes a deliciously dangerous fistful to deal with. (I have stabbed someone in the leg with a pen before, and yes ! they are very strong, and yes, they didn't bully me any more after that :rolleyes: )

When going out I will usually pack a palm sized very bright flashlight with crenellated bezel, same keyring full of keys. Not including knife...an umbrella, botte of water and a wallet full of coins even.

One option which I have thought of using is my belt which has a metal buckle and a metal tip/ end. That makes a very nice weapon to use as a flail to keep them at arms length and inflict some sjambok style damage before they descend on you (and they will if they are determined enough). I always try to wear this belt when going to events involving large group of people (concerts/ pubs/ clubs etc.)

When walking in carparks or past buildings/ walls/ cars, I will always have my hands wrapped around the flashlight or keys or anything I have on me....umbrella/ manbag etc.

As with the previous comments, my past teachers have always mentioned that if you take away their intention to surprise you...you end up surprising them, and mostly they do not have a backup plan to harm you....you then have the upper hand. Then you use all means to get out of the sticky situation...... fight like a girl, pinch, slap, bite, scream...whatever it takes :p ;)

Empty hands, knees and elbows and training take over after all your 'weapons' have been lost in poor retention or once you've been disarmed :eek:

Cheers
Dan

[zenheretic]

Since we have some SD pros on this thread, the new flashlights with strobe ability. Does the strobing really work better for disorienting and taking out night vision of perps?

[Lostification]

As far as I am concerned, any object that I can handle is a potential weapon. In most cases, my first option is my fist. Then I have my bookbag (laptop and a few notebooks). After that, it is whatever I find in the environment.

I have no training and no skills. :D

I agree with you. Except instead of the fist, I use my leg/knee's/elbows. I use my arms to protect my head and to disrupt my oponents balance. I particularly LOVE the back kick, but, the chances of landing one are low unless your target is a predictable swinging punching bag.:D

So, in a real fight, I'd protect my head, get in a lock up and deliver good knee's and elbows, choke you out, or break a bone. ^_^

If you guys go to youtube and search for street fights, you might find it quiet funny how many people fight. 90% of them wildly flail there arms about; if they swing their arms any faster they might have lift off. Especially funny how they stand up straight with their legs together and wonder how they got pushed to the ground.:p

[KaliGman]

Since we have some SD pros on this thread, the new flashlights with strobe ability. Does the strobing really work better for disorienting and taking out night vision of perps?

Zen,

I was told by all the flashlight representatives who wanted to sell me something (this was at one of the major SWAT/LEO expositions) that there was all kind of research on this that proved that it worked. Since they wanted money, I took all this at face value, of course:rolleyes:.

What I have found through experience (hey, you have to try the new toys sometimes) is that the lower power strobes didn't seem to do much more, if any more, than the regular lights. A good "tactical" light is very bright and works pretty well without the strobe. I did find that, in powerful lights (over 200 lumens or higher) the strobe effect was disorienting beyond just having your eyeballs seared. The constant on and off shock to the optic nerve makes you a little dizzy (or at least it did this to me). Of course, this was just the non-scientific sample of my two eyeballs, results may vary:). I would rate it as more debilitating than the regular light but in no case would I rate either the regular light or the strobe a guaranteed stop. Hope this helps.

[Mr Blonde]

Since we have some SD pros on this thread, the new flashlights with strobe ability. Does the strobing really work better for disorienting and taking out night vision of perps?

WHile not being a pro, I did some exercises with strobe lights (Jetbeam light) and it is more disorienting for an attacker. However, most lights require that you jump through several levels before you get to the strobe which makes it useless to me for SD. Kind of like having to open a nailnick folder for SD. Some lights can be programmed to give the strobe as a primary level.

Furthermore, the disorienting effect of the strobe is not limited to the attacker, the defender should practice to overcome the 'feedback' of the strobe beam. The surprise effect of an automatic strobe is really effective though, but a manual slower strobe (possible with any momentary switch flashlight) also works much better than a steady beam. Remember to move whenever you deploy the light.

Wouter

Wouter

[Michael Cook]

Since we have some SD pros on this thread, the new flashlights with strobe ability. Does the strobing really work better for disorienting and taking out night vision of perps?


:spyder: Mr. Janich gave an extremely impressive demo at last weeks seminar with strobe flashlights. At normal fluorescent room lit conditions the strobe effect completely took away his partners depth perception and reduced his peripheral vision to the point that while looking forward he didn't see a hook punch till it was about one inch (!:eek: ) from his head. He said in hostage rescue exercises two trainees can come in strobing the perp, one shuts his strobe off and just walked around in a wide arc right up to the perp and was able to put his training gun up to the perp's head before he even saw what was happening. Really quite impressive!

Strobes also stop perps from being able to trace the light backwards to the light holder adding safety when clearing dark rooms. :spyder:

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: I just weighed my indestructable sharkie marker, 69 grams!:eek: This thing really makes an impressive fist load! At $4.99 it's the most potent checkpoint friendly tool I've found!:spyder:

[Dr. Snubnose]

:spyder: I just weighed my indestructable sharkie marker, 69 grams!:eek: This thing really makes an impressive fist load! At $4.99 it's the most potent checkpoint friendly tool I've found!:spyder:

Just wanted to know if you have one of those pocket protectors for that sharkie marker:p ....Doc:D

[Jenner 515]

Well, since the only martial art I know is having fought Golden Gloves, one or two of these might help the punch (ABYSS model Titanium )

[Jimd]

A Surefire flashlight and a stout, metal pen. Ouchies!

[Bolster]

...nice item. I just purchased several of the Sharkies at Knifesite for $3.60 each. And (finally) the sharpmaker ultrafine stones. Woohoo!

[stonyman]

Kubatons, flashlights and pins or any other improvised object that can be found. Many folks discredit the objects that are already at their disposal. Any and everything. A belt, a book, etc. Your mind only limits the possibilities. I believe the earlier post already addresses many of these already. Take care and be safe!:D

[Kaizen]

I carry a Night Ops Gladius flashlight as an EDC. It has nearly 200 lumens.

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: I took some 250 grit sandpaper to my sharkie today, now it's sterile of pesky brand lettering:cool: :spyder:

[224477]

Jason Bourne was using a BOOK in the latest Bourne Ultimatum :D
Might work well, but no paper back, hard cover ones...

[Lostification]

Jason Bourne was using a BOOK in the latest Bourne Ultimatum :D
Might work well, but no paper back, hard cover ones...

Didn't he also use a magazine in the first Bourne Identity? He also used a Bic pen in that one, too. That might have been the thing that gave us all the idea of using a pen for SD, haha!

[224477]

Didn't he also use a magazine in the first Bourne Identity? He also used a Bic pen in that one, too. That might have been the thing that gave us all the idea of using a pen for SD, haha!

Magazines are a good choice, rolled up ones...
You would not believe how many magazines they are giving out on planes, for free!!! :D

[Stenny]

I think he used a rolled up magazine in the second movie, but I may be mistaken... However, I loved the "towel versus razor" fight in the last one.

[Bolster]

Wanted to bump this thread and say "thank you" to all who responded, I learned a lot, particularly that I needed to be carrying a modern flashlight at night. Unfortunately now I am hooked on flashlights, but oh well, I'm certainly safer.

[ASHTXSNIPER]

I carry a handgun everywhere. Today I had a Beretta 92, a Kahr P40, and a Ruger SP101 on or around me. I would use one of them. If I cant carry my gun somewher I wont go.

[Stenny]

Bolstermaniac: Yeah, I got hooked too. Gathering money for something nice, not overly tactical :/.

[Echo63]

I almost always am carrying my knives - but the few times when I don't, I have pens and a flashlight on me. I also carry keys, but I'd go for the flashlight and pen (parker with a stainless steel outer casing). I also wear steel toed boots 99% of the time that I'm out. Being 6'2" probably doesn't hurt either....

I also am a photographer, and I will sometimes have a monopod with me (a one legged tripod). They are great for stabilizing the camera indoors while using fast (but heavy) lenses, and are made of aluminum. I've brought them through security checkpoints multiple times without question, since I am a press photographer. I also have been allowed to bypass security in some places. I wouldn't suggest them for most people, but if I have one on me, and i'm feeling threatened, it would make a very effective baton/club/baseball bat type of device. A few nights ago, I was walking back to my car after covering a football game in an area that's not quite the nicest, I had approx $13,000 in camera gear on me at the time, my cameras were hanging off my neck, and I had my 120 lumen LED flashlight in one hand, and my heavy duty monopod in the other. I also had the rescue 93 and tasman in my pockets.

I'll use whatever I can to my advantage - I am not trained in fighting, but I'll put up a hell of a fight if I need to.

i know what you mean about the Monopod, my Velbon CF pod would make a nice striking weapon if needed
speaking of camera stuff, my Canon 1d would make a average impact weapon if needed, and i have heard of somone damaging a canon 300mm f4 by whacking an offender who was trying to steal their camera bag

when im not allowed knives, i always have a bright light,keys, a metal pen, 2 fists, 2 feet covered with steel capped boots.

[malice4you]

i know what you mean about the Monopod, my Velbon CF pod would make a nice striking weapon if needed
speaking of camera stuff, my Canon 1d would make a average impact weapon if needed, and i have heard of somone damaging a canon 300mm f4 by whacking an offender who was trying to steal their camera bag

when im not allowed knives, i always have a bright light,keys, a metal pen, 2 fists, 2 feet covered with steel capped boots.

One of my favorite comments about the build quality of a Canon 1D was along the lines of: The camera is very solid. If someone were to try to rob me, I could probably beat the robber with the camera, then take picures of his bruised and battered face.
I've read reports of this type of thing happening multiple times, with the cameras surviving with minimal damage. Then again, I've also heard of a 1D with a 500 f4 lens mounted, getting dropped, and the lens mount being ripped out of the camerawhen the camera hit the ground...so don't trust the body too much ;) (lens survived fine, amazingly enough)


I've met a member of the military who was in Afghanistan as a photographer, their position was overrun by enemies, and his sidearm jammed or ran out. He swung his camera (nikon film body, F5 I believe) around and hit the attacker with it. Stopped the attacker....

I persoanlly would be happier hitting someone with a $40 monopod than a camera and lens that costs a lot more than $40, if I've gotta use camera gear as a weapon... :p Course, me brandishing a monopod in one hand, and a Tasman SE or Endura CE in the other would hopefully convince someone to back off....