attacted my a civilian

[TheTacticalOne]

On december 05 2001 i was walking home from work as i'm lucky enough to live about 3 blocks from work. It was about 12am an i was dead tired because i had to work open to close. I took a shortcut through a parking lot i new i shouldn't have gone through as its a hangout for the local crips gang and being a shaved headed whiteboy the first thing most of them think is that i'm a skinhead(I'm not my wife is black for gods sake). Any way some little hood rat that was about 6'5 and a good 225 pounds come up to me and asks me to give him my wallet and movado. I told him to leave me alone and to **** of, he then showed me a nice shiny aluminum handles civilain and again told me to hand over my stuff. i acted like i was reaching for my wallet and grabbed my HK USP 40 he saw it and took a slice at my shooting arm ripping into my upper arm right through my tricep and completly through my bicep. and this is through a leather jacket. i managed to keep my firearm in my hand and got off a shot very close to center mass. he dropped and i ran to my house and called the police and did my best to take care of my arm until i could get to the hospital. when all was said and done no charges were pressed against me , bad guy lived but is going to jail for a long time if convicted( he had 2 ounces on heroin a handgun as well and the armed robbery charge), my prognosis on my arm is full recovery in 12-16 monthes ans there is alot of muscle and tendon damage. i'm OK i guess i'm just concerned if i did the right thing my using my gun when i could have just taken the loss of the 200 or so bucks in my wallet some credit cards i could have canceled and my watch and not come close to taking a mans life. Did i do the right thing?????





PS- Sal glessar your slashing design of the civie is perfect as soon as the tip of that blade penatrated all th eflesh and muscle behing the point was severed and it is the most painfull wound imaginable i can honestly say i will never carry my matriarch because No matter what happened to me i would never want to inflict that type of pain on someone. I'll stick to my chinook











Funny i'm scared to death of spiders but own 54 spyderco knives..hmmm

[kraziekurtis]

I think you did the right thing because who knows he may have killed you after you had given him the money.You never know until you do something...and that something could always be a mistake but you can only learn from mistakes.I have a feeling if I was in the same situation I would have done the same thing <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

It's a shame that the Civilian and the likes can end up in the hands of people like that..you should have shot him in his spine.


You wouldn't want to share any of those 54 Spyderco knives would you? <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Welcome to the forum!

Best of luck to your recovery!

[Eclipse]

I am glad to here that you are still alive.

You did the right thing. A knife is as deadly as any handgun. You protected yourself when it was necessary to do so.

Was the $200 in your wallet worth a life. Yes. It was worth his life. He put himself in that situation not you. He threatened you with a lethal weapon. Your response was within the law and morally correct.

When people argue that the money a person carries is not worth someones life that is not true. If you gave him that money you would lose respect for yourself. You might think of yourself as powerless. A robbery takes more than the money in your wallet.

Shooting someone should never be taken lightly. It is normal to question your actions. You should know that you did the right thing.

If you wish to hear from a group of like minded people please go to www.thefiringline.com.

Hope you are healing up well.

Zach


Edited by - Eclipse on 12/7/2001 10:30:20 PM

Edited by - Eclipse on 12/8/2001 1:03:03 AM

[Eclipse]

I want Kurtis to remember that a knife or a gun has no will of its own. It has no malice, no hate, and no spirit. Any weapon can be used for good or evil. It is the person behind the blade that decides the course it will follow.

I like your attitude Kurtis especially coming from one as young as you.

Please note that one only shoots to stop the threat. That is what is the law states and should be followed.

Zach

Edited by - Eclipse on 12/7/2001 10:38:00 PM

[panguero]

TheTacticalOne,
Glad to hear that you survived the attack. I take it from the name of the gang that you live in LA. Do you work in a pharmacy? Are you licensed to carry a hand gun? If not, I am amazed that the boys in blue didn't slap you in the pokie on a technicality. Perhaps you were licensed and that was that. Perhaps you are not, and they overlooked this technicality due to the circumstances; which I feel is justice served(IMHO). Tell us more if you can.

I feel you did the correct thing. You'll review the incident over and over for years to come and there is no better turn-out than to have the both of you alive; you free and clear and he in jail.

Now the damage to your body is a total bummer. Do you have use of that injured arm now? KK has a good point and Eclipse sounds well informed on this topic. I do feel that materials have a certain level of spirit and vibe in them. Lots of energy locked-up in molecular structures. And Eclipse has good advice.

You'll never know if the assailant wouldn't have offed-you anyway-just for fun, or to gain favor in his gang. Hopefully, his buddies learned a lesson. We can hope so. Hang-in there.54 Spiderco Knives? Wow.

[TheTacticalOne]

thanks for the kind words guys. to answer a few questions. i line in Windber PA just outside johnstown and i work in the restauant buisness as a manager. i have absolutly No use of my right arm for 4-6 months while the muscles heal. The slach completely severed my right bicep muscle into 2 pieces and came close to doing the same to my tricep. i also lost just over a pint of blood. my healing time will be 4-6 monthes healing time maybe longer if the tendon damage is bad and another couple of monthes of physical therapy. i spent a LOOOOOOOONG time in the hospital getting my arm fixed it took 67 stitches to close the skin after the vascular surgeon got done. I am one sore puppy who now has to learn how to be left handed for a year or so. Good thing spydies are ampidextrious. i think i spelled that right<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Funny i'm scared to death of spiders but own 54 spyderco knives..hmmm

[TheTacticalOne]

thanks for the kind words guys. to answer a few questions. i line in Windber PA just outside johnstown and i work in the restauant buisness as a manager. i have absolutly No use of my right arm for 4-6 months while the muscles heal. The slach completely severed my right bicep muscle into 2 pieces and came close to doing the same to my tricep. i also lost just over a pint of blood. my healing time will be 4-6 monthes healing time maybe longer if the tendon damage is bad and another couple of monthes of physical therapy. i spent a LOOOOOOOONG time in the hospital getting my arm fixed it took 67 stitches to close the skin after the vascular surgeon got done. I am one sore puppy who now has to learn how to be left handed for a year or so. Good thing spydies are ampidextrious. i think i spelled that right<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Funny i'm scared to death of spiders but own 54 spyderco knives..hmmm

[TheTacticalOne]

thanks for the kind words guys. to answer a few questions. i line in Windber PA just outside johnstown and i work in the restauant buisness as a manager. i have absolutly No use of my right arm for 4-6 months while the muscles heal. The slach completely severed my right bicep muscle into 2 pieces and came close to doing the same to my tricep. i also lost just over a pint of blood. my healing time will be 4-6 monthes healing time maybe longer if the tendon damage is bad and another couple of monthes of physical therapy. i spent a LOOOOOOOONG time in the hospital getting my arm fixed it took 67 stitches to close the skin after the vascular surgeon got done. I am one sore puppy who now has to learn how to be left handed for a year or so. Good thing spydies are ampidextrious. i think i spelled that right<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

[TheTacticalOne]

thanks for the kind words guys. to answer a few questions. i line in Windber PA just outside johnstown and i work in the restauant buisness as a manager. i have absolutly No use of my right arm for 4-6 months while the muscles heal. The slach completely severed my right bicep muscle into 2 pieces and came close to doing the same to my tricep. i also lost just over a pint of blood. my healing time will be 4-6 monthes healing time maybe longer if the tendon damage is bad and another couple of monthes of physical therapy. i spent a LOOOOOOOONG time in the hospital getting my arm fixed it took 67 stitches to close the skin after the vascular surgeon got done. I am one sore puppy who now has to learn how to be left handed for a year or so. Good thing spydies are ampidextrious. i think i spelled that right<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Funny i'm scared to death of spiders but own 54 spyderco knives..hmmm

[Hoosierdaddy]

TheTacticalOne,

I'd have to agree with Eclipse and KK, the point is you're still here for your Wife and Family. It doesn't matter if it was 20.00, he could of taken your life in a second. Do you think he would worry about this? A few years back I was involved in a similar incident, I took a mans life. Because of the circumstances I did not go to jail. I still have occasional nightmares. It's something you learn to live with. Count your blessings! So many people are not as lucky and skilled as you, you did what you had to! Welcome to the forum, sorry your first post was not so pleasant. Hope your arm heals quickly!

[yog]

TheTacticalOne.
Sorry to hear about your missfortune, although I definately think you did the right thing.
It is not the amount of money that counts, it is the fact that someone threatened you with physical violence and / or death. Just think what would have happened if it was some other unarmed but principled person that had tried to stand up to this crip. Instead of nearly taking a life, you could well have been saving others.

Good luck on your convalescence .

"Walk softly, but carry a big stick."

[Hoosierdaddy]

TheTacticalOne,

Had a nightmare last night after posting, not your fault, but reflected more on situation. 100 different scenarios could have played out, the main thing is you didn't panic and empty your magazine into the culprit,a lot of people do. You fired one shot dropped him and got away. You sound very competent and proficient with your weapons, a great trait. So many people think because they can hit a bullseye or metallic silhouette everytime or beat the clock they would do good in a similar situation. Most times they would be wrong. When you have someone shooting back or able to inflict great bodily injury it's a whole new ballgame. And it's not like playing paintball either! The shooting I was involved in did not turn out so well! I was shot, not fatally obviously, but a 7 year old boy was injured. His wound was not life threatening and he fully recovered. He was shot by the culprit. I did not initiate the confrontation but the end result was an innocent victim was hurt and could have easily been killed. Could it have been avoided? Possibly... again 100 different scenarios could have played out. Talk it over with your Wife, your friends, co-workers, anyone. Don't keep it bottled up inside you. Seek help if you think you need it! One more thing... not to make you worry, but if this slimeball was in a gang, watch your back!! Good luck!!

[Dav]

What kind of leather jacket? I assume you're talking about a nice 'fetal lamb skin' one and not a thicker motorcycle jacket?

I was telling my Father about this thread and he replied &quot;I dunno about those ancient weapons, kid. No match for a good blaster at my side.&quot; Paraphrasing Star Wars perhaps. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

It was a good thing that you had a gun, I doubt a knife fight would have been as pretty - not after his initial strike.

Not to make light of your circumstances, but I can't help thinking what would happen to the rest of us (me!) were we under similar circumstances?

I'm sure I'm in the minority on this board when I say I've never fired anthing more powerful than a BB gun. This being taken into consideration, how would my small amount of martial arts training and one medium sized spyderco measure up? Would I realize that I was out-gunned and throw him my valubles? Run?

&lt;shudder&gt;

I'm sorry to hear about your plight, rest and heal well. <img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Dav

[sal]

Hi Tactical One. Welcome to the Spyderco forum and thanx for the story. I'm really sorry that you had to experience the cut. I think you did the right thing.

I guess it's easier to understand why I've always tried to keep them low voume and difficult to get.

I hope your wounds heal well.

sal

[kraziekurtis]

Is that why there isn't a photo of the Civilian or Matriarch on the online catalog Sal?

[Knife Knut]

Kurtis, yes that is the reason.

[kraziekurtis]

OK thanks....I figured it out finally! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

I am only gonna carry my Matriarch when I am going somewhere alone when it is dark.

For the other times it will just sit in my display case being displayed proudly! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

[Mark1955]

You should have double tapped him in COM.

[golem]

&lt;...how would my small amount of martial arts training and one medium sized spyderco measure up? Would I realize that I was out-gunned and throw him my valubles? Run?&gt;
In my opinion, in most situations, the key factor to win a street fight is not the technique, but the will of killing the enemy. Those bad guys make them-selves bad guys because they hesitate less to wound or kill people than you and me. So, if you believe that you life worths much more than the robber and the money in your wallet, and you don't have a super weapon like a gun, I would recommend not to fight. Fight only when you feel that your life is in danger and won't hesistate of killing.

[ruxton]

welcome to the forum,
i think you did absolutely the right thing, i would have done the same in your situation. sorry to hear you were on the receiving end of a civilian, thats one mean knife. get well soon!
MAT

[tortoise]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=180400&amp;pagenumber=3

Hold up guys, check this thread first.

[panguero]

Interesting thread. I am still waiting for TTO to answer this question from a previous querie:
TTO
&quot;Are you licensed to carry a hand gun? If not, I am amazed that the boys in blue didn't
slap you in the pokie on a technicality. Perhaps you were licensed and that was that. Perhaps you are not, and they overlooked this technicality due to the circumstances; which I feel is justice served(IMHO).Tell us more if you can.&quot;

[ruxton]

hmmm casts serious doubt on his story doesn't it, i'll reserve my judgement till i hear both sides tho
MAT

[CalypsoKid]

I feel that when one is being robbed, one is wise to just give up the goods to avoid being hurt. I never carry the kind of money that would be worth laying my life or even my health on the line. By using checks and credit cards, I don't have to. OTOH, if you are attacked, fight with everything you have until the enemy is vanquished or you can run. Just let 'em take it, you can always get more money or whatever.

~C

[seth]

Here's a quick overview of TTO's story elements that point to fabrication.

The attack ocurred late on Dec. 5th, by the 7th, he's clear of all legal issues, out of the hospital and able to keyboard his story.

If his bicep was completely severed, how did he manage to walk out of the hospital within two days? Meanwhile back at the keyboard, he was browsing on BF.com on Dec. 5th and 6th.

It's not likely that the Prosecutor's Office is going to throw out the possibility of charges this quickly. It usually takes at least a week or two to complete the the investigation. Media attention for a shooting of this kind would have stirred up at least a paragraph in the Major regional papers and on-line editions.

Note the total lack of emotional fallout from the aftermath of the attack and shooting. TTO indicates no fear of retaliation or repercussion. The fact that he almost was killed and he nearly killed someone makes no register on his emotional level. Instead, he's more enthalled with in effectivness of the Trufram Civilian -- odd.. wouldn't say for someone who almost lost a limb?

The BG mugger, was carrying a 9mm handgun, but choose to threaten his victim with a knife??

The real threat to a post such as this, is how anti-knife people would react to this myth. Consider.... if word got around that Spyderco had designed a knife that could sever arms. Next thing you know; law makers would jump on this to prohibit &quot;purpose designed knives&quot;, because they 'heard' about a case of that happening.

That's why I make effort to call TTO to task, his poor attemp at internet fame and sympathy only severes to discredit those folks that take self-defense as a serious matter. It can also hurt good companies like Spyderco.

TTO has been logged-on over at BF, but has at yet to reply to any of the challenges. Meanwhile, a call to the local newspaper newsrooms in PA and DC, show no such report of a incident the night of 5-6 Dec.

-Seth

[CalypsoKid]

I'd hate to call someone a liar but I agree that TTO may be a creative author and not a victom at all.

I wondered why would someone with 2oz of Heroin (worth many, many thousands of $$, I suppose) expose himself to getting caught by mugging.

Also, a sharp knife would produce a less painful wound because fewer nerves would be affected.

TTO, what city did this happen in?

~C

[TheTacticalOne]

Ok let me get a few things clear as i see on Bladeforums and here there is some doubt to my honesty.

1. I Live In PA i list DC as location simply as a matter of not wanting people to have too much info on me i'm paranoid that way i'll leave it at that

2. I do carry a licensed firearm either a HK USP40 OR USP45 mark 23

3. I'M still In the Hospital and no i will not disclose what hospital for fear of retaliation from my attackers friends/family

4. Just because i'm posting doesn't mean i'm home ever hear of a laptop and there is a phoneline in my room that i have permission to use my computer on

5. Let me clarify a few details on my arm. There is very little tendon damage. none that will require a surgeon. My bicep was about 85% severed meaning there is only 15% on th emuscle intact. the cut also went through about 30% of my tricep. i have been through the surgery to reconect the muscle tissue and will be discharged sometime next week

6. If i were going to bullsh*t a story about this attack it would have been some hollywood movie BS where i managed to take out the BG and a few of his friends , reload and take aout a few more. cauterize my arm with my hot gun barrel and walk home like nothing happened. but thats not what hapened.
I posted a brief few paragraphes about what happened. that was all except for my sentance about whether i did the right thing by discharging my weapon of even pulling it in the first place

7. The reason i have not been posting responses in the forums that i made the original post in is because after people started to attack my honesty character and integrity i decided to let it wander and see were it ended up and quite honestly i don't think i've ever been more offended in my life. the ONLY time i have ever been untruthful on the forums is when i state i'm from DC and i due that to protect myself as i stated above i am overparanoid about personal info over the internet.

8. its not in any newspaper or TV because i wouldn't allow it because i wasn't attacked by a single*****hole looking for a quick few $$ i was attacked my a gang member and have a wife and family to worry about them not having to worry about them getting attacked. so it was kept out of the news. its not luke reporters have ESP they only now about things like this if someone calls and tells them about it.

any other questions i will answer through email at MBQUARTRX7@aol.com

PS this will be posted in its entirety in all 3 forums this topic is posted in

Funny i'm scared to death of spiders but own 54 spyderco knives..hmmm

[Hoosierdaddy]

Seth,
C/K,

I was thinking the same thing!! TTO I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but it does sound questionable. The press and news are like Vultures, anything going on they will know about it! They use police and emergency scanners and something of this magnatude would definately be in the papers or on tube. The first amendement is why they will write this, it's news, and negative news about firearms AND knives. They all jump on the bandwagon for this type of news. My folks are originally from Pa. The two newspapers there are Post Gazette and Pittsburgh Press, anyone want to check archives? TTO send a picture of your arm-stitches to the forum, no face or distinguising marks. That would be a start.

[kraziekurtis]

Is it hard to type allllllll of that without the use of one of your arms?

Edited by - kraziekurtis on 12/10/2001 3:22:57 PM

[ruxton]

fair enough, i feel that he's telling the truth, sorry for doubting you. i wish you a speedy recovery.
MAT

[bell]

You did the wrong thing. Your mistake was to go through the parking lot at that time. I live in LA and would not go within a mile of Crips turf with a bazooka in my pocket. Now you know better.

[copilotboy]

I also read this on the BF and I seriously doubt the validity of the story. No evidence has been supplied, so I can't allow myself to be fooled. It seems to me that someone merely wanted a little attention. Until I believe that TTO has the power to control the press and also to shoot a firearm with a severed bicep, I will not believe.

[kraziekurtis]

bell,

People can carry bazookas in there pockets now? <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

[seth]

Now the rest of the story....

TTO finally confessed that the whole story was made up. He doesn't seem to feel much regret for his scam; moreover, Painting Sypderco in a negative light caused him no concern.

Here's the confession:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=180400&amp;pagenumber=3

Edited by - Seth on 12/19/2001 6:31:37 PM

[Hoosierdaddy]

Seth,

Thanks for posting that, it's a shame people get off doing things like that!!

To TheTactlessOne,
The truth will always come out.

I think it was Ken Cook that refered to him as &quot;TheTheatricalOne&quot;
Right on guys!!!
For some good reading check out B/F!!!
I really hope you do apoligize to Sal!!

Edited by - Hoosierdaddy on 12/19/2001 7:17:31 PM

[Gatekeeper]

The last post he made was a tactical tantrum at best.

[bell]

kk:
Thanks for your response. I really enjoy your posts. Feliz Navidad y un abrazo muy fuerte.

[Brian]

Hoo boy, I've seen angry mobs more subdued than that thread. All in all though, he should have known better than that and I now think he should be banned entirely from Spyderco &amp; Bladeforums.

&quot;Where were you when the world stopped turning...&quot;