Edged Weapon Tactics / Counter Tactics

[Darren Laur]

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[Carlos]

Hi Darren,

Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.

[SpyderNut]

Welcome aboard, Darren.

That is some interesting info you put in there, good to know.

One thing, how long did it take to type all that? Wow.


Spydernut

[CalypsoKid]

&quot;There is a commonly held view that a person armed with a knife is less dangerous than a person armed with a firearm.&quot;

Did you see Indiana Jones and the Lost Arc? I don't want to disparage knives as weapons but I'll take the firearm anyday.

~C

[thorin hammer]

Thanks for the info. It makes me want to train even harder.

Some laws permit, what honor dose not.

[Hoosierdaddy]

Speaking of movies,

In &quot;Above The Law&quot; (Steven Sagall) five guys (Mafia) surround Sagall, he has gun drawn ready to shoot anyone. One guy says &quot;he can't shoot us all&quot;, Sagall immediately shoots him and says anyone else?

You can't do that with a knife!
A firearm will level the playing field when faced with multiple attackers!
I will never be without a knife PERIOD.
There are times when I carry a firearm, there are times when I don't.

Before somebody tells me that only happens in movies, you're right. If it does happen to me in real life, I hope I'm prepared!

&quot;That which doesn't kill me, only makes me stronger&quot;

[Kahz]

Which movie is it where Steven Segal gets rid of the &quot;bad guys&quot; with a credit card knife? <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Of course, it's Segal and all the women want him just for that. Take that from me... <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Kahz

[Lsaulog]

LOL Kahz!

I kinda knew you felt that way about Segal! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> He is SO attractive when he runs! <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Anywho, I carry at least one knife on me at all times. Yes, even in boxers and a T-shirt! Whenever I go out, I carry my firearm along with my Spydies. When I can't carry my firearm, I rely on my SS Police, Starmate, Native &amp; Endura. If I need to go light, without my firearm, I'll just carry my Native or Starmate and a Dragonfly or Cricket.

I agree with Hoosierdaddy &amp; CalypsoKid. I'll take my firearm anyday over a knife. You cannot dispute the sheer defensive capability of a firearm over a knife. However, I think knives and firearms complement each other. I take both when I can, I take my Spydies when I can't carry my firearm.

"Hope for the best. Be prepared for the worst. You'll never be disappointed."

[Hoosierdaddy]

Darren,

First off I don't know if you're trying to educate us or plug your business. I guess it doesn't really matter.

As far as your statistics...
In the U.K. handguns are outlawed, I believe long guns (shotguns only) are allowed.
So the statistics you quote (7 out of 20) may seem high, but not to a country with no hanguns!
More criminals will feel safer using &quot;edged&quot; weapons against unarmed victums! That is a proven fact!
An &quot;edged&quot; weapon is a general term, it can mean a broken bottle, a nail in a piece of wood, a sharpened piece of plastic or metal, etc. It does not always mean a knife.
I'm not sure of the gun laws you have in Canada, if guns are outlawed than edged weapon crimes will be on the rise.

You say a knife is an effective weapon...
The key phrase is &quot;within its range&quot;
&quot;It will never run out of ammunition,&quot; this is correct. You have to be close enough to use it. The number of people killed by knives that were thrown at them are probably real low!
I guess I could dissect a number of statistics in your post, I don't feel necessary to do so.
Darren, don't take this the wrong way, it's not really directed at you.
There is an old saying &quot; Figures lie and liars figure&quot;
You can use statistics in a number of ways!
Politicians use them often. Enough said.
You have to take what people say with a grain of salt! Use their information and form your own opinions. Don't agree with people &quot;blindly&quot;!
Hell if knives are so effective why doesn't our Military use them exclusively instead of guns!!!
Some points to ponder!!

Kahz,
I'm sorry but Segal just can't act!
He's like Chuck Norris!
Sorry to Dis him!

[bildrac]

Hoosier,

You brought up a valid point, to question statistical information, and yet per the old logical adage that reminds us to &quot;always check your premise,&quot; you conclude your post with a non-sequitor, &quot;...if knives are so effective why doesn't our Military use them exclusively instead of guns!!!&quot; Uh, that's the proverbial &quot;apples and oranges&quot; dude. Guns are applied one way, grenades another, and knives in yet another way; understanding the tool is paramount, know its strengths and weaknesses, and know how to apply them effectively. To say, &quot;That's like bringing a knife to a gunfight,&quot; is a situational paradox. A knife against gun scenario, up close and personal, a gun could prevail if its user deploys his or her weapon effectively, or a knife could prevail if it's wielder is more proficient in its use. In a gun vs. knife scenario where there is some separation and gun is holstered, knife wins; or if knife is sheathed, well, probably gunner guy wins. Hell, maybe gunner guy doesn't have the resolve to shoot; so sheathed knife guy wins by default. Maybe it's dark and gunner can't see his assailant and is gutted, knife wins; or maybe knife guy is plainly visible and so makes an easy target, blam, ending his obvious delusion of the knifes superiority in that situation. A knife isn't specifically superior to a gun per se, nor is vis-&#224;-vis the gun, it’s purely situational, a tool is a tool is a tool, so the right tool for the right job... and train appropiately and effectively.

Edited by - bildrac on 12/20/2001 11:15:12 AM

[RYAN]

Awesome information. The statistics alone are almost jaw dropping. <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> You have to love the amount of education on this forum. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> Thanx for the informative post Darrin.

[4 s ter]

I like to keep in mind the old quotation (attributed to both Mark Twain and Benjamin Disreali)

&quot;There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics&quot;

or another anonymous quotation

&quot;You can prove anything with statistics&quot;

I'm not saying that any of the above statistics are wrong - only that every statistic can be used to support a variety of conclusions. It all depends on the author's objective(s)

David

Edited by - 4 s ter on 12/20/2001 2:30:38 PM

[Hoosierdaddy]

4 s ter,

Thank you, that was the point I was trying to make. It's not accurate to quote knife type statistics when handguns are illegal.

bildrac,
I did not start the &quot;apples to oranges&quot; comparison, only wanted to expand on it! You're right, each has its place.

Darren,

Sorry if I came across insulting, I am a strong gun advocate. I like to speak my mind, even if no ones listening!
BTW Welcome to the Spyderco Forum!
Also you did enlighten me on some points of interest. Thank you

[Kahz]

Hoosier,

I agree, he can't act, but his movies are still fun to watch, especially when he fights. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

No Oscar or Cannes material... <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

About statistics and being a &quot;statistician&quot; myself (yes, a lot of that in my expertise area), I reserve my comments but 4ster has a valid point. Statistics can be made to do whatever the analyst wants them to do. Make sure to review the resouces and how they came up with those figures (which tools, and what kind of analysis was done, along with the objectives).

Kahz, just for the fun of it!

Edited by - Kahz on 12/20/2001 3:28:26 PM

[4 s ter]

Kahz

Spydie-fan and statistician - I wonder what percentage of the North American female population shares the same two characteristics?

:o)

[Kahz]

4ster,

&quot;Statistician&quot; in quotes. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> I studied Marketing and a boooooooring MBA, but I took as many classes in statistics as a major in statistics takes in the US (more than 30 credits in all). My specialty is quantitative market research methods, that's why. But I know there are many female market researchers out there. Don't know about many SpyderLadies, though, and Joyce is still SpyderQueen. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Kahz

[Michael Janich]

This is an interesting thread. If you haven't seen the responses to an identical post on the MBC forum, you may want to check them out as well.

I always find it interesting when the gun/knife issue comes up. Gun guys (usually the most vocal group) provide the standard &quot;just shoot the S.O.B.&quot; response to any standard street attack. Knife guys provide the standard &quot;never jams, never runs out of ammo&quot; response, and the debate rages.

We've clearly established that statistics can be used to support just about any position, so to make them relevant at all, they must relate to your personal situation in some significant way. So with this in mind, an interesting experiment is to conduct your own survey of friends and acquaintances. Determine how many of them regularly carry knives, how many of them regularly carry guns (and could therefore REALLY &quot;shoot the S.O.B.&quot; as they claim to be able to do), and how many of them regularly practice their skills with these weapons in such a way that they would have a chance in hell of employing them effectively on the street. I've been doing this kind of survey for years and consistently found the following:

1)Knife carriers vastly outnumber gun carriers.
2)Most &quot;shooters&quot; don't ever carry guns.
3)Very, very few knife or gun folks train consistently.
4)Many knife and gun owners have never participated in any organized training to learn to use their weapons.
5) The weapon most frequently brandished by most people is a big mouth.

I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone else, but for me, the most convincing arguments always come from people who are truly serious about the subject they are discussing. I don't mean to offend anyone or step on any toes, but a more useful discussion might be to objectively consider your true personal security habits and preparedness, discuss it in detail, and figure out a way to make it better. As much as I enjoy Steven Seagal movies (at least the first few), I think an objective personal assessment would be a much more worthwhile pursuit than trying to learn how to fight from a movie starring a guy wearing a coat three sizes too big.

Stay safe (and smart),



mike j

[Kahz]

Michael,

Good post, I quote you: &quot;I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone else, but for me, the most convincing arguments always come from people who are truly serious about the subject they are discussing. I don't mean to offend anyone or step on any toes, but a more useful discussion might be to objectively consider your true personal security habits and preparedness, discuss it in detail, and figure out a way to make it better.&quot;

So, what can you share with us about your own personal habits and how you make them better?

Personally, I have not YET learned any formal defense/offense techniques with knives and I don't know how to properly use firearms, so I am _willing and able_ to learn anything you or others might want to share. Currently, I am helping as moderator at the Self Defense Forums regarding women and self-denfense issues (you are all welcome to join in, BTW), so I am actually getting more informed on the subject and very excited about learning new things.

My personal training has been in martial arts, primarily TKD and Hapkido and, even though I am no longer in a school, I still keep my skills as sharp as I can through lone practice. Also, I don't get myself into situations which may endanger me _willingly_ but, anything can happen and being mentally sharp always helps, especially nowadays with the current political situation in the US.

So, share your thoughts and knowledge. Even though many of us here digress and joke and get along as pals, I am sure most of us can carry a decent conversation. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Kahz

[CalypsoKid]

&quot;never jams, never runs out of ammo&quot;

Blade breaks though, ask Joshua Haynes.

Your best bet is to stay out of areas where there is the danger of being assaulted.

~C

[Hoosierdaddy]

Michael,

I agree with Kahz, that is a good post!
It is important for people to realize, just because you have a knife or gun you are not invincible! Don't let it give you a false sense of security.
I'm 6'5&quot; tall 225lbs. I intimidate the hell out of people because of my size. If I ever have an altercation with someone I would not pull my knife, mainly because I don't feel proficient enough to use it properly!

As far as item #5... I resemble that remark! I wouldn't say I have a big mouth, I just talk a lot.

The best weapon to possess... it's not a knife or a gun... it's your BRAIN!! People should use it more often! Don't get yourself into situations where you need to defend yourself or others.

As far as the segall reference... it was only used as a &quot;for instance&quot; I don't go around like TheImaginativeOne and daydream about me taking out the bad guy.

[Clay Kesting]

Since this has become a discussion on self-defence might I suggest that, if you haven't already done so, take a look at Marc &quot;Animal&quot; MacYoung's website: http://www.diac.com/~dgordon/. This is one of the most useful resources on the subject that I've found on the net. What comes across loud and clear is that self-defence starts well before the use of any weapon. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>The weapon most frequently brandished by most people is a big mouth <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
Contrary to what most people might think, Marc makes it clear that &quot;verbal aggression&quot; will encourage rather than avoid a physical attack.

Clay

"The trouble is that you think you have time."

[bildrac]

Hoosierdaddy, I again want to reflect that I very much agreed with your assessment concerning the validity of questioning statistical information, amen to that, much too often the statistics quoted are just plain fallacious and or skewed. I didn’t mean to disparage what you wrote, being that I did come across harshly concerning the X vs. Y debate; rather, and in my own bluntly affected manner, I just wanted to emphasize the importance of understanding one’s defensive tool. Michael Janich made a very good point, rather than debating pros and cons of one or the other, it is indeed a good idea to discuss the relevance of “personal habits,” and along that line, I don’t recommend strict paranoia per se; but I do preach the consistent practice of “hyper-vigilance” when out-and-about, and general “environmental awareness” all the time, even and especially at home where many of us are apt to relax our guards.

[Michael Janich]

Dear Kahz and others:

Thanks for your comments on my posting. I will take your suggestion and offer my thoughts on personal habits as they relate to self-defense. However, because this topic is more in line with the theme of the MBC forum (and that forum loads faster on my computer), I'd prefer to post them there. Please look for a thread called &quot;Personal Habits and Self-Defense&quot; very soon.

Thanks again for your interest.

Stay safe,



mike j