Spyderco and the Byrd Line.

[Vincent]

The way In see it, we buy Spyderco Knives for different reason, some such as quality materials, as well as new exotic materials. We buy them because they are very well made tools and a very good price in comparison to other brands.
Some things which people like is G-10, handle Liners and the Lock back lock,,etc...

Though now all of that is offered at a 5th of the price with the Byrd line. The Liners, the Lock back and the G-10. All Materials that you used to pay a premium for. You even get 8C13CrMoV steel which is not all to bad. So you get it all and you get High Quality Manufacturing to ensure safety.

So to the average consumer you must ask. What is the point of buying a product from the Spyderco line. If you can get all the same feature at a 5th of the price. There really is no point, and we all know price is always the determining factor for folks.

Possibly the average user would see the difference between a Byrd and a Spyderco, in the materials such as S30V with a compression lock, but that is still expecting alot. My worry comes to the knives made in Seki, the Delica, Endura, Calypso jr and other FRN models will soon, just not be considered anymore. This is because if you can get G-10, or the same FRN,. the same lock, and a comparable steel, and great manufacturing at half the price, why spend the extra money. Now to the Average user, steel does not matter, nor do most see the difference, to some people $20 is still insane for a knife.


Another point I don't get is, if we look at the new G-10 Delica and Endura's they are about the same price as other Spyderco G-10 models. They are 2x more expensive as the FRN versions and 4x more expensive as a Byrd that has the same makeup.

I know I am not bringing up all the points and I understand the inclusion of manufacturing costs. My point is that, to Joe schmoe whom shops at walmart or Amazon.com, they don't know, nor will ever care. I also, dont think people equate Byrd separate of Spyderco. They look at them as one company.

IU hope I didnt get anybody mad from this thread. But I do feel that, eventually, just like our economy, we will only have the super cheap knives and the super expensive knives. There will not be the Middle ground, the knives that have been best sellers that have made spyderco, such as the Delica and Endura,

[Murdoc]

....and it will quickly get worse with a Tenacious around for MSRP $50 :eek:

round hole = Spyderco. No more Byrd involved at all. Is it a good knife? Maybe. Is it a real Spyderco? I honestly can't decide, but I'm in doubt. (Of course it is, it has the Round Hole, hasn't it!?)


Dennis

[spydergeorg]

....and it will quickly get worse with a Tenacious around for MSRP $50 :eek:

round hole = Spyderco. No more Byrd involved at all. Is it a good knife? Maybe. Is it a real Spyderco? I honestly can't decide, but I'm in doubt. (Of course it is, it has the Round Hole, hasn't it!?)


Dennis

I am new Spy fan, without experience, but I do not know about any Spyderco (round holed) knife made in China before from 8Cr13MoV steel.

Is it a begining of a new era? (Tenacious made in China, you can see on the picture in the catalog)

[bh49]

t like our economy, we will only have the super cheap knives and the super expensive knives. There will not be the Middle ground, the knives that have been best sellers that have made spyderco, such as the Delica and Endura,

I am afraid, that this is just a tip of an iceberg. :(

[KaliGman]

Vincent,

The knife afficianado will see the difference in the two (I know that I do). I don't think that the average person equates the Byrd and Spyderco lines as "one big happy corporate family." I know that almost all law enforcement officers with whom I deal have never heard of the Byrd line until I mention it.

A couple things that also need to be considered is name recognition/branding and warranty. Spyderco is known for very high quality, high performance knives. It is kind of like BMW--every year the car magazines do a comparison test with some other car (Infiniti, Cadillac CTS, etc.) and the BMw M3, and, mostly, the M3 wins on "that intangible feeling of quality" or "it is a BMW." Take a good look around Manhattan and you will see a whole bunch of people who buy BMWs not for the performance, but because everyone has told them how great the cars are and it is a status thing for some. Many of the general public who like to buy quality products will go with a name--and Spyderco has name recognition. Since the Byrd line is marketed by Spyderco, some may say the name recognition will spill over. In general, to go back to the car analogy, this is not necessarily true (the "Chrysler TC by Maserati" was a POS and it didn't sell, and Mercedes did not exactly bring the Chrysler brand up to lofty heights before unloading it).

If you look at the packaging on the Byrd line, you will see the warranty is good for one year. Look at the warranty for the Spyderco line---do you see a limited timeline there? For the "hard use" people, having that lifetime warranty is a major plus.

Will some business be siphoned off by the Byrd line? Absolutely, but this is the same business that would be siphoned off by a lower end knife from another manufacturer. Spyderco is trying to compete in the field of lower end (but good quality) production knives as well as in the higher end of the production knife market. Personally, I think it is a pretty good business model (but what do I know, I'm a government employee) and Sal seems to believe it is the way to go. The one thing that bothers me is the Tenacious--the Byrdeco / Spyrd. It doesn't seem to fit the strategy of the two lines being separate. Here is hoping that it all works out well.

[mrappraisit]

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Sal stated the Tenacious was made as response to big box sporting goods type stores requesting a :spyder: at a certain pricepoint. I think that the Native II didn't get chosen because the manufacturing capacity at Golden is maxed out.
I have worked in American manufacturing, and it is getting harder and harder to compete with foreign companies. If the Tenacious means that Golden and Seki made models will continue to exist, then so be it. I personally think that it may bring more people into the fold to appreciate high quality knives, but I guess that remains to be seen. I am sure this will remain a hot topic no matter how it all plays out.

[Agent Starling]

The one thing that bothers me is the Tenacious--the Byrdeco / Spyrd. It doesn't seem to fit the strategy of the two lines being separate. Here is hoping that it all works out well.
I haven't looked closely at the catalog yet, but when I read this, I thought, "uh, oh, a hybrid...the shape of things to come?"

I certainly hope not. I hope it remains a case of "never the twain shall meet", where the two lines are concerned.

Agent Starling

[David Lowry]

I'm just going to wait and see. As I get older (only 34 right now) I realize how beneficial "wait and see" is in a lot of circumstances.

[araneae]

I am hoping that Chinese made Spydercos represent only a very small fraction of the Spyderco line. While I will most likely purchase the Tenacious, I would prefer to see Golden or Seki stamped on my Spyderco.

My experience with the Byrd line has been a pleasant one, but I just don't feel quite right about a Chinese Spydie.

[MANIXWORLD]

This was something i wanted to ask before with regards to the TENACIOUS model on Spyderco-china produced?
i do own one BYRD MEADOWLARK and its not bad at all.
but if i compare a Spyderco DELICA to a BYRD knife,the Spydie wins hands down.
I love all Spyderco bladesteel.
the BYRD bladesteel tends to rust quicker.
you pay more for the Spydies,but you are getting better materials and notice to detail.

[Zenith]

You raise some valid points.

Hopefully one of the points you raise, which i fear, about the extremely cheap and extremely expensive knives never comes true.

I love my d4 and frn. I feel frn is a good material thats been under rated a lot for some people and hope it will never dissipear.

[The Deacon]

The knife afficianado will see the difference in the two (I know that I do). I don't think that the average person equates the Byrd and Spyderco lines as "one big happy corporate family." I know that almost all law enforcement officers with whom I deal have never heard of the Byrd line until I mention it.Depends on where "Joe Average" shops. Some online dealers, and darn near every eBay seller listing Byrds, advertise them as "Spyderco Byrd" or "Byrd by Spyderco". And I'm sure Spyderco's decision last year to put both product lines in the same catalog, and to have a single website for both increases the number of folks who do associate the two brands. From my days in the gun business, and from having some LEO friends over the years, I learned that any assumption that an LEO knows or cares anything about the "tools of their trade" is likely to be wrong. I'd faster ask one for advice on what pen to buy than what knife or handgun they'd recommend.


A couple things that also need to be considered is name recognition/branding and warranty. Spyderco is known for very high quality, high performance knives. It is kind of like BMW--every year the car magazines do a comparison test with some other car (Infiniti, Cadillac CTS, etc.) and the BMw M3, and, mostly, the M3 wins on "that intangible feeling of quality" or "it is a BMW." Take a good look around Manhattan and you will see a whole bunch of people who buy BMWs not for the performance, but because everyone has told them how great the cars are and it is a status thing for some. Many of the general public who like to buy quality products will go with a name--and Spyderco has name recognition. Since the Byrd line is marketed by Spyderco, some may say the name recognition will spill over. In general, to go back to the car analogy, this is not necessarily true (the "Chrysler TC by Maserati" was a POS and it didn't sell, and Mercedes did not exactly bring the Chrysler brand up to lofty heights before unloading it).That's the other problem. IMHO, BMW has kept its image not because it does not have a "low end" brand that is linked to it in the public's mind, but by not marketing an "entry level" BMW significantly lower in quality than their regular line. There are, for example, many folks who buy Cadillacs knowing full well that GM owns the brand and also makes Chevrolets. So I think the Byrd line is no real threat to Spyderco's reputation. However, the "unknown quantity" right now is the Tenacious. That knife will have Spyderco's name right on it, so if it is not "as good" as the rest of Spyderco's line in the areas of fit, finish, and durability, those shortcomings will reflect directly on the Spyderco name.

As for Maserati, I don't think their reputation, at least in the US ever recovered from being associated with Citroen.


If you look at the packaging on the Byrd line, you will see the warranty is good for one year. Look at the warranty for the Spyderco line---do you see a limited timeline there? For the "hard use" people, having that lifetime warranty is a major plus.True, and therein lies the rub. Assuming the Tenacious will carry the same warranty as the rest of the Spyderco line, the question becomes, will its quality be good enough that it does not harm Spyderco in two ways, by being a drain on W&R, as well as by lowering the perceived quality level associated with the Spyderco brand name.


Will some business be siphoned off by the Byrd line? Absolutely, but this is the same business that would be siphoned off by a lower end knife from another manufacturer. Spyderco is trying to compete in the field of lower end (but good quality) production knives as well as in the higher end of the production knife market. Personally, I think it is a pretty good business model (but what do I know, I'm a government employee) and Sal seems to believe it is the way to go. The one thing that bothers me is the Tenacious--the Byrdeco / Spyrd. It doesn't seem to fit the strategy of the two lines being separate. Here is hoping that it all works out well.I'm trying very hard to withhold judgment on the Tenacious until I have one in my hands. I know the Japanese don't have an exclusive on quality workmanship. The Volpe showed that the Italians are capable of beating them in that department and the S has demonstrated that the Taiwanese are capable of at least matching them. I'm hoping the Tenacious will prove the Chinese equally capable. I'm also enough of a realist to know that significant "sub assemblies" for one or more of the Seki built models could already be coming from subcontractors in China. The Japanese electronics industry has been doing that for years, but we only hear about it when something goes terribly wrong. Remember those laptop batteries that were going up in flames.

[Blackhair]

My main worry with the Tenacious is the use of the round hole.

The Comet Hole used in the Byrd line is, I feel, as much an indicator of quality as the round hole. The Byrd line are gateway knives; they are good knives, but still not up to the standards of real Spydercos.

The opening holes on Spydercos (and Byrds) are, I feel, the fastest identifier of the knife's quality. If you see that comet shaped hole, you know that the knife is a good knife. But if you see the round hole, you know that that knife lives up to a higher standard. I know once I got my first Delica, I immediately felt more proud, somehow, of using my knife.

The Tenacious will shake that up, I fear.

I feel that's it easier to explain "Well, it's made by Spyderco, but it's part of their Byrd line, so it's not quite the same"; than it is to explain "Well, it's Spyderco, and it has the round hole, but it's made in China, and has Byrd steel, but it's the only one of their main line that has that, so you shouldn't judge their other knives because of just that one".

Really, I see the Tenacious as a Byrd with a round hole.

I understand where Spyderco was going with this, I really do. Spyderco is bound by the need to sell product, and they occasionally make some choices that are designed towards getting their product out there and selling it, no matter what.

I hope that this helps get more people into Spyderco, I'm just concerned about how this will reflect Spyderco's image.

They're basically trying to make a regular Spyderco knife that will draw less knife-knowledgeable people into Spyderco, the way that the Byrd line does. The only thing is that the Byrd line is just that, the Byrd line. People expect it to be a slightly lower quality.


I have conflicting interests relating to this knife. On the one hand, I appreciate high-quality knives, as well as Spyderco standards, and I cringe at the thought of the Tenacious bringing down Spyderco's name (for whatever reason. Et al, preconceived notions about China...). On the other hand, I work in retail, so I understand exactly what Spyderco is trying to achieve with this knife.

Do I think that this knife was a good marketing decision? Absolutely. If people buy it because of the round hole, and then work their way up to better Spydercos, then Spyderco wins.

Would I recommend this knife? Probably. It will be a gateway knife, just like Byrds.

Will I be buying this knife? I seriously doubt it. Due to the fact that, to me, the round hole exemplifies a higher standard, and if I wanted a blade with Byrd steel, I'd buy a Byrd.

Time will tell whether or not the Tenacious was a good decision, I hope that it does well, for the sake of Spyderco.



Wow, that was a long post. If you read it all, you get a cookie. :D

*Received Cookie*

[sal]

Hi Vincent,

Naturally we share all of your concerns.

First of all, you have to remember that we work for the customer. It will be the desires and demands of the customer tht determine our directions.

We also have to deal with the competition. More and more "low cost Chinese models" are trying to look like Spyderco. the new knife buyer doesn't have the knowlege or experience to tell the higher quality. that is something that customers must learn in time. That's when they gravitate towards the better product, assuming they can afford it.

Also, our high quality makers are not increasing in capacity, they are decreasing. I'm sure you have noticed that their prices keep increasing. this means fewer and fewer knives and higher prices.

As mentioned, the "Tenacious" is an important test bed. Once we know the maker can consistently make a quality piece, then we begin the steel refinement process.

We do not create a design and hand it off to the experience of the maker. We have to teach the makers to make product our way. ALL of our makers had a learning curve. NONE of them could make what we wanted the way we wanted it when we started with them. They ALL have limitations on their abilities.

If you have some wise suggestions or directions that we're not seeing, I'm always listening.

sal

[Agent Starling]

Wow, that was a long post. If you read it all, you get a cookie. :D

*Received Cookie*
Thanks for the cookie, Blackhair!:)

I agree with what you wrote...I hope the Tenacious doesn't hurt the Spyderco line, Spydercos being such an excellent line of cutlery...of course, I will take a wait and see approach as well, but at the moment my gut feeling is...I hope Spyderco doesn't--of necessity--have to go the way of the Tenacious with the rest of their line...OTOH, I well understand that this is a business and companies must do what they must in order to continue to thrive...:spyder:

Agent Starling

[ghostrider]

As far as the byrds are concerned, I don‘t see them hurting the Spyderco line much. I know that some collectors think that it will hurt the collector value of some of the Spyderco‘s, but I‘m not sure how that relates to the company itself. I don‘t really compare the byrds to the Spyderco‘s since the byrds are going to attract a different type of buyer. IMHO. When the Cara Cara/Meadowlark came out, they were different from the Endura/Delica in both size and shape. Admittedly, the difference was a slight one, but they were different. With the release of the E4/D4, that difference is even less. Still, even though there isn‘t much difference in size and shape between the Cara Cara and E4, there is still a big difference beyond size and shape. To the type of people who buy the byrd line, that difference is probably a none issue. There are actually some people who wouldn‘t pay more than $5 for a knife, and think that anything more is “just paying for hype“. They don‘t see a difference between the “gas station knife“ and a Spyderco, and for them, there probably isn‘t any difference.

Another thing to consider is that while many of the people who buy a byrd knife wouldn‘t shell out the cash for a Spyderco, there are some who will “graduate“ to Spyderco after experiencing a quality knife in the byrd. OTOH, there are also those who bought Spydercos in the past, even thought they realy didn‘t want to spend that much on a knife, and now see the byrd line as a happy alternative. It will be interesting to see how it works out in the long run.
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Sal stated the Tenacious was made as response to big box sporting goods type stores requesting a :spyder: at a certain pricepoint. I think that the Native II didn't get chosen because the manufacturing capacity at Golden is maxed out. ...I think you mean "Native", since it‘s the only knife in the Native series that is made in the USA. The Native II was made in Seki.