Reflections on Restricted Items

[KaliGman]

This post is not directed at those knife aficionados on the forum who live outside of the United States, as the laws regarding balisongs and automatic knives vary greatly from country to country. I am sure that some will take this post as a personal affront, be offended, or get angry with me, but so be it. This message needs to be posted here, as people on the forum continue to exhibit behavior that needs to be addressed. If you are a member of the forum and are not law enforcement or military I would suggest that you not post photos or otherwise discuss your illegally owned Spyderco balisong or automatic knives, discuss how to circumvent the law and obtain a Spyderco automatic or balisong, or otherwise discuss breaking the law, Many people seem to be under the mistaken belief that, as their state law does not prohibit the possession of an automatic or balisong knife, they can legally possess a Spyderco auto or balisong. This is incorrect. By way of explanation, let us discuss the applicable federal statute and some recent history.

Here is the applicable statute (source—United States Code):

“United States Code
TITLE 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE
CHAPTER 29 - MANUFACTURE, TRANSPORTATION, OR DISTRIBUTION OF SWITCHBLADE KNIVES
Section 1241. Definitions
As used in this chapter -
(a) The term ''interstate commerce'' means commerce between any State, Territory, possession of the United States, or the District of Columbia, and any place outside thereof.
(b) The term ''switchblade knife'' means any knife having a blade which opens automatically -
(1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle of the knife, or
(2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both.
Section 1242. Introduction, manufacture for introduction, transportation or distribution in interstate commerce; penalty
Whoever knowingly introduces, or manufactures for introduction, into interstate commerce, or transports or distributes in interstate commerce, any switchblade knife, shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
Section 1243. Manufacture, sale, or possession within specific jurisdictions; penalty
Whoever, within any Territory or possession of the United States, within Indian country (as defined in section 1151 of title 18), or within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States (as defined in section 7 of title 18), manufactures, sells, or possesses any switchblade knife, shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
Section 1244. Exceptions
Sections 1242 and 1243 of this title shall not apply to -
(1) any common carrier or contract carrier, with respect to any switchblade knife shipped, transported, or delivered for shipment in interstate commerce in the ordinary course of business;
(2) the manufacture, sale, transportation, distribution, possession, or introduction into interstate commerce, of switchblade knives pursuant to contract with the Armed Forces;
(3) the Armed Forces or any member or employee thereof acting in the performance of his duty; or
(4) the possession, and transportation upon his person, of any switchblade knife with a blade three inches or less in length by any individual who has only one arm.”

Case law (judicial interpretation) and legislative action have expanded the “military” exemption to law enforcement (and usually fire/rescue) in the performance of their duties. Those who have been here awhile or who have closely followed Spyderco understand that Spyderco has had some issues with its balisongs (source American Law Newswire):

“United States Attorney Scott N. Schools announced that Spyderco, Inc., a Colorado corporation, pleaded guilty and was sentenced today to mailing butterfly knives, which are nonmailable, to pay a $75,000 criminal fine, a $125 special assessment, and to forfeit all such knives seized by the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement from its corporate offices in Golden, Colorado (estimated to be valued at over $400,000). The guilty plea and sentence is the result of an investigation by United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement ("ICE").

In pleading guilty, Spyderco admitted that from June 2005 through January 2007, it had mailed butterfly knives, after importing the knife components from Taipei, Taiwan, through the Port of San Francisco and the Port of Oakland, to Golden, Colorado. The U.S. Customs and Border Patrol had issued a ruling to Spyderco holding that these knives fit the definition of "switchblade knives" as an imported knife "with a blade which opens automatically by operation of inertia, gravity, or both" and were therefore not allowed into the United States pursuant to the Switchblade Knife Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1241-1245, and were further not to be mailed in the United States.

Spyderco agreed to issue a Notice of Recall on its internet site for these butterfly knives and to mail this recall notice to reasonably identifiable customers. Spyderco also agreed not to import, transport, distribute, manufacture, sell, introduce, or attempt to introduce into interstate commerce knives defined as switchblades under the Switchblade Knife Act, in violation of the law.

The sentence was handed down by U.S. Magistrate Judge Wayne D. Brazil following the corporate guilty plea to one violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1716(j)(1), a class A misdemeanor.

Maureen Bessette is the Assistant U.S. Attorney who prosecuted the case with the assistance of Cynthia Daniel. The prosecution is the result of a one year investigation by the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement.”

It is my understanding that the Newswire did not get all of the facts completely correct, but the gist of the matter is that Spyderco took a financial hit and had to change the way in which it was doing business in regard to balisong knives. What all of the above means to all the “knife people” on this forum is that Spyderco is complying with rulings and opinions handed down in the 10th Circuit, District of Colorado. As the District of Colorado is treating balisongs as automatic knives (switchblades), it is illegal for Spyderco to introduce into interstate commerce (i.e. to sell or ship such items outside of the state of Colorado) balisongs and automatic knives unless such knives are being sold to a distributer or dealer which has agreed to sell such items only to law enforcement or the military, or Spyderco sells the knives directly to the military or law enforcement officers. Spyderco distributors have signed agreements with Spyderco regarding this practice. If Spyderco discovers some distributor/dealer is not honoring their agreement, Spyderco will discontinue doing business with said dealer.

Spyderco is doing all that it can to remain on the “good side” of this “bad issue.” Do I like what has happened? No. Do I think that automatic knives and balisongs are going to cause any real problems out in society? No. Do I make federal law? No, but I do enforce it. This brings me to my final point in this monster-length post.

For those who have obtained the Spyderco balisongs or automatic knives and who are not law enforcement/emergency response or military, you are illegally in possession of such knives. Now, as in the peer-to-peer music and file sharing realm, where sometimes a person who had just downloaded a few songs was prosecuted, you are putting yourself at risk by posting about your illegality on a public forum. You can be sure that Immigration and Custom’s Enforcement is watching to make sure that Spyderco honors its agreements. If ICE or another federal agency decides to proceed with a criminal investigation, it would take merely a couple of subpoenas to get your IP and email addresses from Spyderco, and then your name and other identifying information from your email or Internet service provider. Some people may be charged “as an example” or sample group to show the “extent of the problem.” Do I know if this is being planned? No, and if I did I sure would not disclose it. Could this happen? Yes, I have seen similar tactics used in other investigations. Please note that, if you can’t legally possess a Spyderco balisong or automatic knife and are crowing about your ownership of such a knife on a public forum, all you are doing is putting Spyderco in the cross-hairs of another potential federal investigation and are possibly inviting yourself along for the ride. In addition, you put every federal law enforcement agent on the forum who has jurisdiction in regard to U.S. Code Title 15, Chapter 29, Section 1241 in an awkward position. Does such an officer report you to ICE, initiate his or her own investigation, or what? As for me, I will get a few of the restricted items as I am federal law enforcement. I don’t plan to be in this section of the forum much. I do hope that everyone plays nice over here. I would hate to see more bad stuff go out toward Golden for no good reason. For the record, if you have a Spyderco balisong or automatic knife and bought it in violation of the law I encourage you to dispose of it properly. Now, as Johnny Storm would say “Flame On” for I am sure to be blasted for this one.

[raven]

Hey KaliGman, I Totally Agree With What You've Stated.

My Fellow Spydie Family and Forumites, What you need to understand here, is that KaliGman is doing nothing more than sticking up for Our Beloved Spyderco and Trying To Keep You All Out Of Trouble ;) . It's hard to understand where We're Coming From, From The Law Enforcement Point Of View ... We All Also Have Our Opinions, and It's A Free Country and We Know Many Will Voice Those Opinions. KaliGman is speaking From A Federal Law Enforcement Point Of View and Probably Knows More Than Most Here regarding the Law. It takes but only a few Strategic Phone Calls and Investigation, before you know it Spyderco is taking a MAJOR Hit In The Knife Industry and Their Reputation Is In The Crapper!!! Along with that, some may get dragged into an Investigation and Possibly Charged, Attorney Fees, Bad Feelings. All I know Is It Can Get Really Bad and Just Go Down Hill in A Heart Beat.

All I ask ... PLEASE GIVE IT SOME THOUGHT BEFORE SAYING OR DOING ANYTHING. THANKS FOR LISTENING. Take Good Care All and Be Safe Always.

God Bless :)


-raven-

[tonydahose]

i have no problem with the post...spyderco needs to cover their butt. Like Rodney Dangerfield said "Watchout for number 1 and don't step in number 2":p . I figure getting to own one legally is one of the perks to putting your life on the line. My only question is the fire/rescue clearly exempt from the law like police and military...it seems like that is the grey area.

[butch]

dang and this all had to wait till i got out the corp
i i want a smallfly to play with ("play" cause i have many more useful spyders to carry)
its a shame that even after i get my carry permit for a pistol still couldn't have a fly

o well what can you do right

[jeffbr]

Thanks for the great explanation, KaliGMan. I own neither automatics nor balisongs and have often wondered about the regulations. It seems pretty cut & dry to me after your post.

It is a shame, though, that we continue to elect governments that do nothing but erode our liberties in the name of safety. Maybe some day we can win back our freedoms and be able to own these fine bladed pieces of art.

[amen74]

KaliGman. You are actually doing us all a favor by posting this. If anyone does not understand that Spyderco and Co are just covering their butts, well I don't know what to say about that.

This post was very informative and was the right thing do to. I read it twice.

[ClockWork]

All I can say is:

I cant wait till I get my Cit!!!!!
:spyder: :D :spyder: :D :spyder: :D

[Agent Starling]

Very informative post, KaliGman. My understanding is that when there is a conflict between state and federal law, the stricter law is to be followed, and that is one thing I gleaned from your post. Thanks for the info.

Agent Starling :D

[KaliGman]

Very informative post, KaliGman. My understanding is that when there is a conflict between state and federal law, the stricter law is to be followed, and that is one thing I gleaned from your post. Thanks for the info.

Agent Starling :D

Starling,

If there is a major conflict between state and federal law, in general, the federal law supersedes the state law. The Supremacy Clause of the Constitution is the basis for this.

[Brad S.]

Amen KaliGman,

I would be lying if I said I didnt want a Smallfly, but I also have decided stand behind the law and support it. Which Is why wont buy one, ever, unless I can get it legaly. I'll stand with you KaliGman.

[jeffbr]

Starling,

If there is a major conflict between state and federal law, in general, the federal law supersedes the state law. The Supremacy Clause of the Constitution is the basis for this.

Unfortunately true, although that didn't come about until the 1800's under Marshall and was counter to original intent (see 10th Amendment). We need a little less fed and a little more state right about now.

[sal]

Thanx much KGM.

Think twice, type once.

sal

[aj1985]

The first thing that really comes to mind is if Benchmade can sell the bm40 tr to Canadians why can't Spyderco sell the trainer. There could be numersous variables, but that is the first thing to come across my mind. Not a very huge or imporatant issue, but I'm just curious.


Secondly why even have this section on the forum, because It really isn't needed imo. Many of us aren't allowed to own the automatics or balisongs and those that can are Law Enforcement and Military and I doubt many of them will be discussing thiese knives over here.

Just remove the section all together, because It clearly would not be beneficial. It will also help Kristi since she wouldn't have to police this one section more than the others.

take care
aj

P.S one last question when an individual stops being in the Military or a LEO do these knives become Illegal to own or are they grandfathered in.

[KaliGman]

The first thing that really comes to mind is if Benchmade can sell the bm40 tr to Canadians why can't Spyderco sell the trainer. There could be numersous variables, but that is the first thing to come across my mind. Not a very huge or imporatant issue, but I'm just curious.


Secondly why even have this section on the forum, because It really isn't needed imo. Many of us aren't allowed to own the automatics or balisongs and those that can are Law Enforcement and Military and I doubt many of them will be discussing thiese knives over here.

Just remove the section all together, because It clearly would not be beneficial. It will also help Kristi since she wouldn't have to police this one section more than the others.

aj

P.S one last question when an individual stops being in the Military or a LEO do these knives become Illegal to own or are they grandfathered in.

AJ,

Spyderco can sell in international commerce just not interstate commerce (between states in the United States). As long as it is legal to sell automatics and balisongs within a nation outside the U.S., Spyderco should have no problems. As for Canada, although I have conversed with a few Canadian LEOs, I have not researched Canadian law (I have never worked co-operative cases in Canada like I have in some other nations), so I am not sure what Canadian law states on this matter. If it is legal to sell, then Benchmade, Spyderco, and other American companies could sell there.

As for Benchmade in general, they operate out of the 9th Circuit, District of Oregon. So far as I know, no one in that district has yet seen fit to start an investigation into their business practices, and I am unsure as to whether the "balisong as auto" definition would stand up in courts in that district. An investigation could be coming--the operative word in the previous sentence was "yet." In reality, a lot of companies, manufacturers, distributors, and retailers, are skating on thin ice in regard to the automatic knife issue. In most instances, investigators seem to have had other violations and investigations to occupy them. Will this continue? Maybe, but an investigation and prosecution could be initiated.

As for this section of the forum, you would have to ask Sal and Kristi. If it was my company, I honestly wouldn't bother with making autos and flys in the first place. Spyderco makes them because many of their LEO and military customers want them, and the company is willing to jump through the bureaucratic minefield which must be navigated in order to produce and sell these knives. A lot of bother to satisfy the customer--but that is a Spyderco trademark:D. My conjecture on having this part of the forum is that Spyderco had the choice of completely censoring everything to do with these knives, which I don't think fits in with Sal's idea of what he wants his company to stand for, or to open a forum section where all the chatter (including that of those illegally in possession of auto or balisong knives) is grouped in one place. Having everything here allows Kristi to try to monitor what is going on and allows all of the information on these knives to be grouped together for retrieval and distribution to investigating law enforcement officers, should another investigation ensue and turning over information on this forum become necessary.

As far as owning the knife when you retire or leave public service, that is an interesting question. The general consensus seems to be that if you were legally allowed to own the thing, it is now your property and will remain so when you retire or leave the military or law enforcement. This is subject to interpretation. In general, though, I don't see a whole lot of effort being put forth in trying to take these things away from a bunch of suddenly pi%$ed off retired cops and soldiers:p You never know, though. During the "high capacity magazine" ban years I was told that all of my high capacity magazines, personally owned or not, would have to be turned in if and when I left my organization. Since I had conflicting information from other officials I questioned this and it went round and round. Since the ban no longer exists (no nationwide federal ban, but some state level bans exist), the point became moot.

Take care

[JBE]

With this discussion about autos coming out maybe someone can finally answer this question for me...

As I understand, it's completely legal to buy/own one of these types of knives if your Law Enforcement or Military...

So what about the rest of us Public Safety personnel...For instance, myself, and those in the fire service?

I've been told that by being in the profession that I'm in, that it's ok for me to purchase and own autos. Others have told me different. I've never been able to secure a "definitive" answer on this. Personally, I've never tried to purchase an auto before and put my "credentials" to the test so to speak.

[The Deacon]

Thanks KaliGman.

What makes this, especially the part related to balisongs, so difficult for me, and I would imagine for at least some others here as well, to comprehend is the obvious double standard. As an example, except for New York City, balisongs made by other companies are sold openly and, I have always assumed legally, to anyone 18 or older in New York State. Most reputable internet merchants will not ship an automatic to a New York address without some proof the buyer is legally qualified but I have yet to find even one site with a similar requirement for the purchase of a balisong.

So it's a bit hard to understand why there should be one set of rules for a balisong manufactured in Colorado, and what certainly appears to be a totally different set for ones made in Oregon, Ohio, or elsewhere in the USA due to different interpretations of a FEDERAL law by FEDERAL officals.

There's also the almost amusing fact that the only exemptions noted in Title 15 Chapter 29 of the US Code are a full exemption for the Armed Forces as an entity, a qualified exemption for military personnel "acting in the performance of their duty", and a qualified exception (blade three inches or less in length) for one-armed private citizens. It does not seem to offer any exemption for law enforcement agencies or their employees at any level, including Federal.

[KaliGman]

With this discussion about autos coming out maybe someone can finally answer this question for me...

As I understand, it's completely legal to buy/own one of these types of knives if your Law Enforcement or Military...

So what about the rest of us Public Safety personnel...For instance, myself, and those in the fire service?

I've been told that by being in the profession that I'm in, that it's ok for me to purchase and own autos. Others have told me different. I've never been able to secure a "definitive" answer on this. Personally, I've never tried to purchase an auto before and put my "credentials" to the test so to speak.

Unfortunately, I can't give you a definitive answer either. It depends on interpretation. As I stated in the first post in this thread and the Deacon reiterated, interpretation within federal Circuits and Districts drives some of this. The "law enforcement" exemption is from some legislative action, establishment of enforcement guidelines, and some case law. In many instances, the exemption is stated as "Public Safety," and you should more than qualify for this. I see firefighters and EMTs needing one handed opening knives a lot more than many federal law enforcement officers, to be honest. Interpretations vary, but I don't see many LEOs hassling a firefighter or EMT much over this. Not smart ones anyway--I make it a point to try to not tick off the guys who are going to be trying to save my butt if I get shot or otherwise hurt in the line of duty:p. Circuits and Districts vary. The best opinion would be from the Chief Assistant United States' Attorney in your area (but good luck on getting the opinion!). Sorry I couldn't be more help. The interpretation thing can be a royal pain, especially if, like me, you get transferred a few times and operate in different Circuits and Districts and have to "learn the new court."

[bluemist]

bull**** is hard to interpret

[tonydahose]

i think i am just going to stay out of this forum after this post...i agree with AJ on this. What little knowledge/refinement...etc that sal can gather from positive posts to make his products better will be offset tremendously by a few bad ones...just my opinion. i will see you guys on the other boards.:)

[JBE]

Your reply was much appreciated nonetheless. I've tried several times through different sources locally, both legal and otherwise (dealers,etc.), to get a clear,definite answer but unfortunately always come up blank. Some will say yes while others say no. Apparently my job set falls into sort of a "gray" area when it comes to autos. It's frustrating as I want to be able to legally purchase, carry and use an auto without worrying if I'm "skirting" the law.


Unfortunately, I can't give you a definitive answer either. It depends on interpretation. As I stated in the first post in this thread and the Deacon reiterated, interpretation within federal Circuits and Districts drives some of this. The "law enforcement" exemption is from some legislative action, establishment of enforcement guidelines, and some case law. In many instances, the exemption is stated as "Public Safety," and you should more than qualify for this. I see firefighters and EMTs needing one handed opening knives a lot more than many federal law enforcement officers, to be honest. Interpretations vary, but I don't see many LEOs hassling a firefighter or EMT much over this. Not smart ones anyway--I make it a point to try to not tick off the guys who are going to be trying to save my butt if I get shot or otherwise hurt in the line of duty:p. Circuits and Districts vary. The best opinion would be from the Chief Assistant United States' Attorney in your area (but good luck on getting the opinion!). Sorry I couldn't be more help. The interpretation thing can be a royal pain, especially if, like me, you get transferred a few times and operate in different Circuits and Districts and have to "learn the new court."

[ClockWork]

I dont think theres a cop out there that will hassle you because of a tiny little knife if you flash a NREMT card. Be it B I or P...

... EMS personnel "Help" people, not stab them. And cops know that EMS people can get shot, stabbed, kick, HIV-ed, and baseball batted just as much as they can....

Heck... Even if we were to stab someone. The next thing we'd do is probly a damn Initial assessment, then elevate and pressure. :confused:



And dont forget the most important statement of all...

*Edited - TazKristi - Inappropriate for our Forum.

-Clock

[Agent Starling]

Secondly why even have this section on the forum, because It really isn't needed imo. Many of us aren't allowed to own the automatics or balisongs and those that can are Law Enforcement and Military and I doubt many of them will be discussing thiese knives over here.

Just remove the section all together, because It clearly would not be beneficial.

I've been wondering the same thing also. In fact, I've been thinking, why have this section at all, if only a small subset of this forum can own these knives? Or, in the alternative, why not make this forum a closed forum, where only that certain subset of people who can legally own these knives can participate...that way the rest of us don't have to look at and read about knives which we will never be able to possess...? Just a thought.

Agent Starling

[ClockWork]

I've been wondering the same thing also. In fact, I've been thinking, why have this section at all, if only a small subset of this forum can own these knives? Or, in the alternative, why not make this forum a closed forum, where only that certain subset of people who can legally own these knives can participate...that way the rest of us don't have to look at and read about knives which we will never be able to possess...? Just a thought.

Agent Starling


Now thats America!!!!!


mmm.... oh wonderful innerweb censorship!! Love it!!!

And nobody forget my wonderful buddy the Patriot act. (If there telling us that there doin that stuff.... Think about what there NOT telling us that there doing!!?)(You have to wonder? Who's reading these post?)

[VGM'S KNIVES]

I have been collecting knives for around ten years. My first knife was givin to me on my 9th birthday. I have had some type of knife on me ever sense. I really think its time for all of us knife lovers to speak up about the way the laws are. The Government always wants more control over the people as bridges are falling down all around us. :mad: The tactical knife is becoming more and more popular to the collectors along with switchblades. I live in minnesota where you can own any lengh knife or swithblade, but to carry is a crime. I dont spend 950.00 on a William Henry to use as a EDC.:) I have read storys that New York is arresting people for the assisted opening knives? If we dont all stick together and voice our opinions, who knows what the Government will take away from us next.Thanks for the great info and post.:)

[sal]

I think that civil, intelligent discussion is a good thing. Socrates is one of my mentors. Dialectic discussion often uncovers greater meaning and understanding.

It's a public forum on knife items that are "restricted". Where they are restricted? How, why, are all very difficult questions to get intelligent, meaningful response to.

Speaking out , protesting, or bitching is not as meaningful as exploring, questioning, sharing and understanding.

sal

[JBE]

I dont think theres a cop out there that will hassle you because of a tiny little knife if you flash a NREMT card. Be it B I or P...

... EMS personnel "Help" people, not stab them. And cops know that EMS people can get shot, stabbed, kick, HIV-ed, and baseball batted just as much as they can....

Heck... Even if we were to stab someone. The next thing we'd do is probly a damn Initial assessment, then elevate and pressure. :confused: -Clock

I agree 100% and there's not an LEO around here that would "hassle" me for having it. However, if I ever have to use that knife in a life-or-death situation to protect myself, I want to make sure it's legal for me to own that knife before I put in my pocket. I don't want that dark cloud hanging over me in court. It's a shame because the Embassy would be an incredible tool to have in my line of work.

I'm just glad I live in a state where there's no restriction on folder length...hence, I carry a Military.

[KaliGman]

...
And dont forget the most important statement of all...

* Edited- TazKristi - Inappropriate for our Forum.

-Clock

The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) had nothing whatsoever to do with charges against Spyderco. Does Spyderco trade in tobacco, firearms, alcohol or explosives? The applicable agency was Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), which had jurisdiction due to imported parts used to make balisongs and the sale of these knives in interstate commerce.

As for reform of laws and rules, I am all for it. There are some things that need changing. As a firearms owner and aficionado, there are many rules and laws regarding ownership of firearms that I would like to see changed. As for federal law enforcement officers puposely losing reports, lying, or falsifying evidence, I have never seen it and if I had, the officers would be doing time. I am sure there are bad apples in every law enforcement agency, just as there are in every other career, including EMTs. When you use such a broad brush and paint an entire agency as corrupt, you insult the sacrifices, hard work, and integrity of many good people who are working in that agency and there is also "spillage" over to the reputation of all federal agents and law enforcement in general. I've known too many people who went into law enforcement to help people, who have fought and bled doing that, and who were fine upstanding human beings to let that pass without comment. You need to ratchet it down a couple of notches.

[ClockWork]

I'm sure there are good people in the ATF. But the ATF isnt one person or just the 10,000+ good officers in the ATF. Its a organization. And the Organization is corrupt.
Sometimes generalization is the best way to describe it.

[TazKristi]

I'm sure there are good people in the ATF. But the ATF isnt one person or just the 10,000+ good officers in the ATF. Its a organization. And the Organization is corrupt.
Sometimes generalization is the best way to describe it.

Perhaps this post from Sal needs to be highlighted.


I think that civil, intelligent discussion is a good thing. Socrates is one of my mentors. Dialectic discussion often uncovers greater meaning and understanding.

It's a public forum on knife items that are "restricted". Where they are restricted? How, why, are all very difficult questions to get intelligent, meaningful response to.

Speaking out , protesting, or bitching is not as meaningful as exploring, questioning, sharing and understanding.

sal

[smcfalls13]

I'm likely the last person you guys would expect to say this, but restricting balisongs/automatics may end up being better in the long run, at least for me;)

It'll force me to make my own Balisongs:cool:

Just gotta look on the bright side of everything:p

Less money spent on balis means more money to make my own.:p

[Appler]

Wow. I'm amazed at how well the idea of a certain class of citizens being exempt from laws the rest of us must follow sits with everyone.

[Jakemug]

Wow. I'm amazed at how well the idea of a certain class of citizens being exempt from laws the rest of us must follow sits with everyone.

Not everyone. :cool:


We regular law-abiding-citizen-folk with no criminal record sometimes don't understand fancy federal law and it needs to be explained to us so we don't go out and do something crazy like try to add an auto or bali to our collection of knives that we've been building since we were 7 years old and end up in federal prison.

I'm glad I CAN'T own any of these highly specialized knives in question. Gosh, I wouldn't know what to do with one if it were given to me! All that weird flippin' and button pushin!

I am enjoying this new forum though and reading about all the fantasy knives out there that most of us can't even sniff without the feds swooping in.

[Appler]

Yeah, I know. I'm not properly trained and couldn't possibly control all of the extra slaughter-potential that spring loading and gravity/inertia deployment affords. Oh, wait...there ISN'T anymore firepower and no one else is properly trained, either (because there is, of course, nothing to train). I forgot.

So, unlike in the more obvious cases of, say, rocket propelled grenades, anything less than blanket illegality in this instance smells suspiciously like a reward.

[Stevie Ray]

Good comments above. Personally, the restrictions on balisongs have puzzled me in the base case. It takes lots of practice and some level of coordination to open a balisong with speed. I've never understood why they get categorized with automatic knives in some states. :confused:

[Ian UK]

They used to be legal over here in the UK I remember being able to buy them but cant remember when and why they were banned.:(

Some "5h1*" will of done something wrong which we are all paying for now!:mad:

Once again I cant see how a bali or auto is anymore dangerous its the user thats the problem, especially over here in the city's where the gangs at present are just stabbing one another!:confused:

Personally I think let them get on with it, but we are surrounded by do-gooders and soft politicians that give in to every sob story.:mad:

Bali's are gone, Samurai swords were banned last month, air guns now need to be bought in person and all the shops are miles away, where it will end I dont know, the yobs now cary screwdrivers so if caught just say they have been doing a bit of D.I.Y. for their gran or something.:mad:

Its us serious collectors that suffer!

[ClockWork]

Good comments above. Personally, the restrictions on balisongs have puzzled me in the base case. It takes lots of practice and some level of coordination to open a balisong with speed. I've never understood why they get categorized with automatic knives in some states. :confused:

Yeah ive never understood that either. I've toyed with Balis for years now, and I am no were near the level that some of the kids on YouTube are.
And even then, I think those guys would take longer to retrieve there bali from there pocket and open, than any of us with a Spyderco.

And yes, I've seen that huge fat kid do his Bali opening speed comparisons video. But I think thats kinda a Load of BS, because any movement or any little thing throws off a Bali opening.

Balis are just not that convenient or useful. I see them much more of a Toy than an actual useful knife. :confused:

Also: I wouldn't necessarily say that a Auto is "Faster" than a Manuel. Yes, in all literal sense it is faster opening. IDK about you, But it takes about the same time to pull and open a Auto, then to Pull and open a manual. I will say that with my BM 5000s, and Boker AK74 that I feel the opening is more "reliable" and theres less of a chance of me dicking it up... Does that make sence? However the MT UT6 is (I feel) easier to mess up the opening... or if my hands are sweaty or tired or something its hard to push the trigger right.

So... take that as you want,

Bottom Line; You can stab some one with a Manuel or Auto just the same. Heck, you can stab someone with a screwdriver.
Restricting one isnt going to make the people that are stabbing people; Stop stabbing people.


IDK about you, But I have never stabbed anyone, Nor do I wish too...

-Clock

[The Deacon]

Wow. I'm amazed at how well the idea of a certain class of citizens being exempt from laws the rest of us must follow sits with everyone.Or we're just realistic enough to know that, even if it were just as illegal for them as it is for us, it would make no difference. If there's any place in this country, or on this earth for that matter, where "the boys and girls blue" routinely enforce nuisance ordinances against their brethren, I've yet to hear of it.

I severely doubt any here would think worse of someone who privately engages in civil disobedience where these particular laws are concerned. I know I would not. But, at the same time, I can understand Spyderco's decision to make these knives and have respect for their concern that members openly bragging about such actions, giving "how to evade the law" advice to others, or asking for such advice, on "company property" might have unfavorable repercussions for both the "protester" and for the company.

[Jakemug]

But, at the same time, I can understand Spyderco's decision to make these knives and have respect for their concern that members openly bragging about such actions, giving "how to evade the law" advice to others, or asking for such advice, on "company property" might have unfavorable repercussions for both the "protester" and for the company.

Agreed Deac, Spyderco's just followin' the rules/laws that exist. Probably not the place for us common folk to discuss how ridiculous they may be. I'll just stay away from this new forum, since I can't "legally" own or contribute about any of the products in it. Much the same way I simply don't watch a television station or listen to radio I don't care for instead of bitching about it.

To those whom the gov't has deemed worthy of purchasing and carrying the products in question, enjoy the new section! Farewell!

[disorder]

hi all, back after another year.. and i found this mess..
well , i'm really sorry for Spyderco -'cause its integrity and ethical honesty is not to be discussed anyhow..-
what i would like to understand is ,since in italy is completely legal to buy and to hold at home ANY kind of knife, BUT you're not allowed to have it on you -without a REAL reason, i.e. camping, hunting etc- even a blade of half an inch..
i can buy from Spyderco a szabofly ? i normally receive any kind of blade (cc #141) wthout problem.. but after this thing ?
kali do you know where i could find more infos on the international side of this ?
thanks and my best regards to everyone.
Gian

[KaliGman]

hi all, back after another year.. and i found this mess..
well , i'm really sorry for Spyderco -'cause its integrity and ethical honesty is not to be discussed anyhow..-
what i would like to understand is ,since in italy is completely legal to buy and to hold at home ANY kind of knife, BUT you're not allowed to have it on you -without a REAL reason, i.e. camping, hunting etc- even a blade of half an inch..
i can buy from Spyderco a szabofly ? i normally receive any kind of blade (cc #141) wthout problem.. but after this thing ?
kali do you know where i could find more infos on the international side of this ?
thanks and my best regards to everyone.
Gian


Ciao Gian,

I am unsure of the regulations in regard to Italy. I can tell you that, in general, there is no U.S. law of which I am aware that would prevent the export of Szabofly knives from the U.S. to Europe. The Szabofly will not be part of the Collector's Club, due to the problems in regard to selling these knives within the United States. If it is legal for you to purchase the knife in Italy, which I believe is the case, then, as a resident of Italy you should be able to purchase the knife without more than the usual hassle of buying something from outside Italy. Based on my knowledge of the issues, selling to you should not be a problem for Spyderco Dealers or Distributors. I hope this helps. I wish I could be more specific, but I am not a lawyer with a specialty in International trade or U.S. Customs law. I'm just a guy who works in U.S. federal law enforcement and who tries to navigate the often troubled waters of the judicial process in order to make sure that bad guys go to prison and good guys are protected. WIth today's rules, regulations, politics, etc,. that is quite enough of a challenge for me:p

[disorder]

Hi Kali, thanks a lot for your kind answer.
i asked to my dealer -the one that sell me my cc spydies- and he said taht due to the past probs, he had to send back all the Spyderco balis, and he cant sell any of them -- that's ridicolous ,'cause all benchmade balis are still there.. i know it's 'cause the law change from state to state..
will try to find one in eu.
thanks again for your answer, my best regards
gian

[G-2]

Wow. I'm amazed at how well the idea of a certain class of citizens being exempt from laws the rest of us must follow sits with everyone.

+1000 :eek: You sure said it!

Quick question for KaliGman; are you an attorney or a LEO or both?

Thanks in advance...

[TazKristi]

+1000 :eek: You sure said it!

Quick question for KaliGman; are you an attorney or a LEO or both?

Thanks in advance...

G-2,
KaliGman is a Federal LEO with a very extensive background in LE at various levels. He and I work closely together.

Kristi

[G-2]

G-2,
KaliGman is a Federal LEO with a very extensive background in LE at various levels. He and I work closely together.

Kristi

Hi Kristi,

We found our answer; KaliGman is not an attorney. We were just currious.

Thanks to you both for your service!

[RIOT]

all this legal mumbo jumbo has put a kill to this section in the last couple of days

[G-2]

all this legal mumbo jumbo has put a kill to this section in the last couple of days

...and if that hasn't, this should:

Quoted from Restricted Forum Rules Page:
"This separate discussion forum for Restricted Models will make monitoring by Spyderco, Inc and any interested Law Enforcement/Government Agencies easier."

Good to know that big brother has the accommodated option of keeping an eye on you (after all, you need to be watched), in this day and age of warrant-less illegal wire-taps, monitored email, rendition, & US-sanctioned torture. If Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and/or Benjamin Franklin were around today, they would be... well, anybody that's ever studied US history knows what they would be...

[The Deacon]

...and if that hasn't, this should:

Quoted from Restricted Forum Rules Page:
"This separate discussion forum for Restricted Models will make monitoring by Spyderco, Inc and any interested Law Enforcement/Government Agencies easier."

Good to know that big brother has the accommodated option of keeping an eye on you (after all, you need to be watched), in this day and age of warrant-less illegal wire-taps, monitored email, rendition, & US-sanctioned torture. If Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and/or Benjamin Franklin were around today, they would be... well, anybody that's ever studied US history knows what they would be...Or it's just a more polite way of saying "Hey assholes, if you're stupid or naive enough to think that after the screwing Spyderco already took at their hands, that ICE is NOT monitoring these forums and would NOT take an interest in you bragging about illegally acquiring a Spyderco automatic or balisong, THINK AGAIN".

[G-2]

Or it's just a more polite way of saying "Hey assholes, if you're stupid or naive enough to think that after the screwing Spyderco already took at their hands, that ICE is NOT monitoring these forums and would NOT take an interest in you bragging about illegally acquiring a Spyderco automatic or balisong, THINK AGAIN".

Hi Paul, so you're a fan of the 'big brother' thing and think it's appropriate to illegally wire tap folks, to 'snoop' all their emails, to have the govt performing rendition & torture (you may want consult our CONSTITUTION and BILL OF RIGHTS so that you have your information correct).

We're not exactly sure of the point you're making, but we think the Mods will agree there is no reason to call anyone an ASSHOLE, STUPID, NAIVE or a FELON (surely you can express yourself better than that, we're guessing you're not an attorney based on your eloquent manner of interacting with us), however we've acquired nothing illegal. Unlike you who live in the Peoples Republic of New York, we reside in the FREE south. We have no cast system (you know how only LEO's and Felon's carry weapons in your area, oh and of course NY is well known for giving permits to VIP's which really re-enforces the cast system analogy). Here in the south we have what is called A LEGAL RIGHT TO PROTECT OURSELVES, and civilians are provided the right to carry weapons LEGALLY to protect themselves. We here in the south, don't have to wait to be a victim and then hope a LEO responds in a timely manner, nor do we have a cast type system which separates classes by rights (like you do where you live). Here in the south, folks are actually licensed to carry concealed weapons and allowed to defend themselves. You'll also notice the difference in crime statistics from New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Baltimore, & DC vs area's South Carolina and further South. As far as automatic knives go, you've obviously not aware of and have never been to BLADE which just took place in NY City, or any gun & knife show in the south.

To recap for you Paul, we're very sorry you feel that it's appropriate to call anyone an ASSHOLE, STUPID, NAIVE or a FELON here, and we're sorry if we offended you; reality can be difficult to deal with especially if one sees themselves as better than others. If we offended your sensibility perhaps you should check your ego at the login. The senate, & house of representatives reports on civil rights violations speak for themselves.

Have a nice day, and we hope you feel better soon.

[Agent Starling]

Is this another Tomahawk incarnation or what?

[The Deacon]

G-2, it's painfully obvious from your comments that you did not read very much of this thread. If you had, you'd realize two things.

First, that while you may not have violated the laws of your state, unless your an LEO or active duty Military, you have violated Federal law by purchasing the Embassy you're bragging about over on BladeForums and are apparently upset because you cannot similarly brag about here. Kristi has explained the how and why of that and KaliGman has explained the how and why of that in even greater detail. If you choose to disbelieve, you do so at your own risk.

As for me, your wrong again, and would know it if you had read my earlier posts. I don't like that law any more than I like the ones which make pot illegal. I just would not see the advantage to go bragging about scoring some grass or an automatic knife in a place where the chances of the wrong people reading about it if I were doing either.

You are wrong yet again about it not affecting me. While automatics are illegal in New York, balisongs are not. Frankly I don't know which pisses me off worse, NOT being able to legally buy a SmallFly or being able to legally buy a Benchmade balisong.

Personally I think Sal, and by extension Spyderco, showed enormous courage and perserverance by making the decision to produce Balisongs and Automatics in spite of the drubbing they'd taken at the hands of the Feds over the Spyderflys. So when people waltz in here and start putting them down for toeing the lines they are forced to toe instead of seeing that, I get a tad upset.

As for the comparison of state laws, have no clue where you live, but to the best of my knowlege, most Southern states outlaw the carrying of Bowie knives while New York allows me to carry one. As for your contention on crime rates, this seems to say you're wrong yet again. http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/?city1=53601000&city2=54513330

Also, I just returned from Blade, it was in Atlanta GA, not New York. I've also been to several knife shows a lots of gun shows in New York - both the city and the state. If your point is that many vendors at these shows sell knives which violate New York State law, I'm already aware of that. But none of that allows Spyderco the luxury of thumbing their nose at the Feds.

For the record, I did not call you any names. To the best of my knowledge the forum rules I was paraphrasing were written before you joined and not aimed at you specifically. On the other hand, if the shoe fits, feel free to wear it.

[KaliGman]

I find it very interesting that the members here, such as the Deacon, who are trying to keep people from incriminating themselves and possibly initiating another investigation into the sale of autos and balisongs by Spyderco, are being labeled as "minions of the evil Guvmint."

This entire thread was started, by me, in order to inform those who use this forum what the federal law was requiring Spyderco to do, to explain that there could be very serious consequences to crowing about violating the federal law, and that some of these consequences could be detrimental to both Spyderco and individual forum members who were in violation of the law. Also, people need to keep in mind that I am not the only Federal LEO who is a member of this forum, and that, unlike many forums, this forum can be viewed by anyone who is not a member. Information here is open to the public, including law enforcement. A subpoena, a 2703 preservation order, and/or other legal process could be issued based on information seen on this forum. These legal documents (not "illegal wiretaps") would then require Spyderco to give up any information (such as an individual's email address, IP address, etc.) that LEOs needed for their investigation. Anyone silly enough to have broken the law and bought a Spyderco balisong and/or automatic and then begin to talk about it in this forum is about as bright as the guy in a red Ferrari who sees a marked police cruiser with a radar unit mounted on the vehicle and doing the speed limit, and who passes the police vehicle at a high rate of speed anyway. Some things just are not going to be ignored by law enforcement.

Deacon has several thousand posts and is well known here. The vast majority here know that he doesn't agree with the law on balisongs and automatic knives. Most of the people here know, by now, that I don't believe in knife and gun control laws either. I did, however, swear an oath as a law enforcement officer to uphold the law of the United States. Also, I really don't want to debate the federal statutes and the Constitution, as interpreted by the United States Supreme Court. I have a pretty good grasp on what is rather than what people want the law of this land to be. It really isn't worth the trouble of putting on a tin-foil hat to keep the rays from the "Guvmint" black helicopters from penetrating and try to see things from some of the other viewpoints expressed here.

One thing that I would like to see is for people to join a few organizations that are designed to safeguard certain rights of self defense and/or work for change of many federal laws in other ways. Change the law and every responsible adult (or teenager or however the law would be worded) can own an automatic knife. To be honest, I would not be one of the people buying. I own exactly two autos--both collectibles. i can deploy a Spyderco or Emerson folder faster than an auto. Balisongs have certain advantages in combative and in tool usage, but autos have very few uses outside of the "cool factor." I have bought exactly two of the Spyderco restricted items: a live blade and a trainer version of the Smallfly. The trainer is going to see a lot of use in the kali classes I teach.

[RIOT]

*Edited - Inappropriate - TazKristi

[cablemonkey]

I wonder if perhaps they could be made available without the springs in them like Boker did with a number of their autos for an unrestricted market?

[defenestrate]

monkey, given the scrutiny of the ICE at this time, my guess would be that simply removing springs would not do. They would have to make it difficult to insert such a spring in a purpose-built way-if it would take someone capable of, say, cutting and hammering and quenching/etc a blade to remove a steel nub, for example, then I think it would work. Knife laws in the United States, even in the (still fairly free) south have so many twists and turns that it is easier to break them than it is to get the job done in many cases and this makes me sad. On the other hand, learn to handmake knives and get to know local LEO and you might be singing a different tune.

[Cuttingedge]

Ratio omnia vincit!!;)

[brandonreed2008]

i could have sworn that you can buy one but you cant carry it in public. i seriously doubt police would raid your house for a balisong :rolleyes: is this just another one of those "if we make a law taking these items away then less people will be hurt?" i hate those. i actually got stopped a couple days ago walking at night (i look young:p) edcing my bali (not spyderco) the cop just said he has no idea why it would be illegal and he let me and my bali on my way. i can definitely open a folder faster than a balisong and my endura wave faster than an auto. strange. we need some less ignorant people in charge

[bc]

legalize it.

[Milu]

I can legally own and carry an auto, a balisong, a pistol. However, the question I would pose is:

should stupid laws be respected?

In today's world it is much easier to pass a stupid law than to repeal it. And who is qualified to judge which laws deserve to be respected (except me of course;))?

[KaliGman]

I can legally own and carry an auto, a balisong, a pistol. However, the question I would pose is:

should stupid laws be respected?

In today's world it is much easier to pass a stupid law than to repeal it. And who is qualified to judge which laws deserve to be respected (except me of course;))?

Respected, maybe not, but if you mean obeyed, there are a number of reasons. Some of these reasons:

Individuals avoid being arrested and prosecuted.

Companies that make knives avoid seizures and paying court imposed fines.

Individuals avoid possible interaction with armed law enforcement professionals and possible use of force by those professionals if the law enforcement officers feel that the individual is reaching for an illegal weapon.

And both police officers and judges will be happy to explain to you, as you are processed through the justice system, that they are quite qualified to tell you how you disobeyed the law and can even recite the penalties you will face. The judge will even feel qualified to deprive you of your liberty for a few days, months, or maybe years, depending upon which law you have decided is "stupid" and which should not apply to you.

As you are in a foreign nation, your laws are different than those imposed in the United States. I would suggest, though, that treating the laws of your nation in a cavalier fashion might not be the smartest move in the world if you wish to continue to enjoy your liberty.

[Milu]

As you rightly say, judges and policeman are quite happy to explain it;) But my question was meant in a more general way not specifically weapons. For example pogroms in nazi Germany - where do we draw the line on wrong laws, at what point do we react, when do we stop being frightened of beng punished for breaking a law that is wrong? And I stress again it is much easier to pass a law than to repeal it.

[The Deacon]

As you rightly say, judges and policeman are quite happy to explain it;) But my question was meant in a more general way not specifically weapons. For example pogroms in nazi Germany - where do we draw the line on wrong laws, at what point do we react, when do we stop being frightened of beng punished for breaking a law that is wrong? And I stress again it is much easier to pass a law than to repeal it.Personally, I'd place the point at which getting arrested for engaging in civil disobedience to protest a bad law becomes an acceptable risk somewhere between a law which, at its worst, deprives me of the ability to legally own an amusing toy and one which sanctions genocide.

As with most things in life, that point will differ from person to person. It will also vary, at least for those with some intelligence, based on the relationship between the risk of punishment, the severity of punishment, and the egregiousness of the law. Other factors can enter into it too. I know that both my age and five years of working "in population" in prisons have made me more risk averse in that regard that I might have been thirty odd years ago.

There are, of course, some laws which can be broken by individuals with relative impunity, as long as they are broken quietly. But to claim that is civil disobedience would be absurd. The one act is altruistic, the other totally self-serving.

[DrBlade]

Is it better not understood... for who?

[tap]

(2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both.
. This would include most of the Spyderco line-up and many other folding knives .

[RJNC]

Butch had a funny point, you can carry a concealed pistol in the U.S., but not a balisong or auto if you're an ordinary citizen. You should be able to obtain a license for auto knives like pistols.

[Knife Crazied]

Does a correctional officer fall in the ALLOWED group??

[FreeRider67]

having retired from law enforcement in 95`, and what I know of technology and today's enforcement efforts; please do not boast of your illegal possessions or the methods employed to obtain them. especially when a paper or tech trail is being left. all you do is set yourself up for failure, down the road.

in the art of war... you do not boast of your weapons. you allow the other side to discover them; when it is too late. :D

keeps your toys and noise in your hands and in your minds. ;)

I can assure you that the moron that whips out an auto knife, to portray themself as a Bad Ass; would be more viewd as a Dumb Ass. yet... if Joe Citizen happened upon a vehicle accident, popped it out and freed an entrapment; no one would bust your chops over it.

it is more of a Common Sense aspect...

[FreeRider67]

Does a correctional officer fall in the ALLOWED group??

yes!!!!! and so do EMS and Fire Fighters.

I just wouldn't take it into resticted areas. you may find out what it was intended for.

you know... that Law of Unintended Consequence :cool:

[The Deacon]

yes!!!!! and so do EMS and Fire Fighters.I'd say that may (or may not) be true at the Federal level. However, I'm disinclined to think it would be true in all states at the State level. It would depend on how the exemptions in the State law were worded combined with the status of Corrections Officers in that state. Here in New York, for example, there is even some question as to whether Police Officer's are legally entitled to purchase automatics as individuals.

That said, out of "professional courtesy", if nothing else, the chances of a Police Officer actually arresting another cop, or a CO, Fireman, or EMS worker on a weapons charge unless said person had been caught on camera doing something outrageously stupid with one, is pretty remote.

[thibaud.1.80]

Hey!!!!

I think at the brand Benchmade....
Lot of auto , balisong and others....
And no problem to buy...By anyone... Why ???
Sorry for my ignorance of your law... I am French.
Thank you.

Tibo.

[FreeRider67]

many of our laws attempt to prohibit what the criminals may posses. however, in doing so; it prohibits the honest people for possessing the same item. and the criminals do not obey the laws anyway. so the only persons that are truly effected by the laws, are the people the laws are meant to protect.

I hope this answers your question and provides you some insight to a portion of our legal system.

George :cool:

[waco kid]

many of our laws attempt to prohibit what the criminals may posses. however, in doing so; it prohibits the honest people for possessing the same item. and the criminals do not obey the laws anyway. so the only persons that are truly effected by the laws, are the people the laws are meant to protect.

I hope this answers your question and provides you some insight to a portion of our legal system.

George :cool:

That applies to a lot of things. A small percentage of people misuse something and other people, who don't use the item in question, decide to outlaw the knife, gun, motorcycle, etc. Funny that nobody ever tries to outlaw cars to prevent all the car-related deaths each year.

[thibaud.1.80]

O.K...
Thank you....
Strange......

Tibo.(France).

[The Deacon]

Another explanation. Unlike many other countries, laws made by the US government are not always interpreted the same way throughout the country, unless there has been a specific ruling by our Supreme Court. Our federal court system is divided into 11 geographic regions, called Circuits. Each Circuit can, and sometimes does, interpret a given law differently.

In the case of automatics and balisongs, the 10th Circuit, where Spyderco is located, has interpreted the law more strictly, and many feel inaccurately, when compared with other Circuits. That means their balisongs are subject to rules no other maker's balisongs are, since no other makers are located in the jurisdiction of the 10th Circuit.

It also means Spyderco must make more effort to insure their dealers comply with the laws governing automatics than any other manufacturer must. According to Federal law, the only state where persons other than LEOs and the military can purchase any make of automatic legally is in the state where that maker is located. In reality, most manufacturers do not enforce compliance by their dealers and so, in states where state law allows private citizens to own autos, you can buy pretty much any brand.

The good news for you is that the law here doesn't govern overseas sales, so if autos are legal in France, you should be able to buy a Spyderco auto.

[thibaud.1.80]

O.K Paul ....

Thank you !!!
Great explanation.
Now, i understand.

Tibo.(France).

[SolidState]

So where do trainers stand? Officially they don't seem to be a knife because they are unable to cut or divide things. Can I buy one of those if I am not law enforcement? I don't see why I could not, but laws don't always make sense.

Also, what if I buy it in Oregon? I was recently at a show here where I saw hundreds of balis. I understand that the court jurisdiction is totally different than Colorado, so is it illegal to sell balis across state lines if the two states allow them? What about if they were produced in Colorado?

[The Deacon]

So where do trainers stand? Officially they don't seem to be a knife because they are unable to cut or divide things. Can I buy one of those if I am not law enforcement? I don't see why I could not, but laws don't always make sense.

Also, what if I buy it in Oregon? I was recently at a show here where I saw hundreds of balis. I understand that the court jurisdiction is totally different than Colorado, so is it illegal to sell balis across state lines if the two states allow them? What about if they were produced in Colorado?Please keep in mind that my understanding may not be correct. That said, as I understand it, if you are outside the jurisdiction of the US 10th Circuit Court and are violating no laws in your own state by purchasing a SmallFly Trainer. You would only have a problem if it needed service. At that point you'd be out of luck, because Spyderco could not legally return it to you or, AFAIK, send you parts for it. The same would be true of live blade Spyderco balisongs.

That is, of course, unless you're planning on annoying Uncle Sugar enough to encourage him to think up creative ways to screw you. :eek: ;) :D

[SolidState]

Thanks Deacon. I'm waiting for KGM to respond, he seems to have the answers on this one.

[KaliGman]

If an item is manufactured in one state and shipped to another, it constitutes interstate commerce and federal regulations apply. According to the way that Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) seems to be interpreting the "Switchblade Act" and the way the case law in the 10th Circuit has defined "switchblade or automatic knife," a 'fly is considered an automatic knife. Even if you live in Oregon, where state law allows you to purchase and possess balisongs, if the knife travelled in interstate commerce, you could have some federal "issues." Since Spyderco is abiding by its agreement in the 10th Circuit, and is expecting its distributors and dealers to abide by 10th Circuit rulings, none of the Spyderco autos or 'flys that you saw should have been available for purchase by the general public. Further, Spyderco will not service or perform any warranty work on an auto or 'fly which is not accompanied by the appropriate paperwork, and would be unable to return such a knife to the owner if said owner sent it in without the appropriate paperwork. Spyderco is considering the trainers as balisongs and subject to full regulation. I am unsure if this is due to the legal opinion of their attorney and in order to limit future financial losses, whether this is a stipulation of the agreement that was reached with the 10th Circuit and ICE in order to have their court case resolved, or whether this is in direct response to guidelines and rulings distributed to Spyderco by ICE. I will say that, in the current environment, you may be taking a chance buying an auto or balisong that is not made in Oregon. Will you be prosecuted? Probably not, but there is the possibility. I would stick to items made in Oregon if I were you. My feeling on this issue is that there are eventually going to be more cases involving other knife companies or said companies are going to be provided with some ICE rulings, and that this interpretation of what is "an automatic knife" is going to become the standard for the nation. Alternatively, the 10th Circuit decision may be vacated, either through legistlation or a new court proceeding (though this is less likely than having more regulation, based on my experience in federal law enforcment in the last few years). Having what amounts to widely divergent standards as to what constitutes an automatic knife affecting interstate commerce is completely unsatisfactory, and I wish the whole issue were moot and auto, balis, etc. were legal, at least on the federal level.

Hope this was some help to you, though I know that the answer is disappointing. In my opinion, the whole thing is somewhat silly, but I don't make the law. Currently, I am more concerned with the violent criminals that my task force is targeting. I wish these bad guys were carrying balisongs and automatic knives, and not wearing body armor and carrying 7.62mm x 39mm rifles.

[SolidState]

If an item is manufactured in one state and shipped to another, it constitutes interstate commerce and federal regulations apply....... Even if you live in Oregon, where state law allows you to purchase and possess balisongs, if the knife travelled in interstate commerce, you could have some federal "issues."......... I will say that, in the current environment, you may be taking a chance buying an auto or balisong that is not made in Oregon.... I would stick to items made in Oregon if I were you.

Thank you for the answer to my question. Being that there are options in my state, I will stick to those to avoid ICE issues. It is kind of a bummer that Spyderco isn't an option for me. Maybe I should try to machine one from scratch. Anybody got the cad files?

Thanks again for the answer and stay safe.

[HellHound]

And who needs those autos and balisongs anyways? Endura wave and zip tie mods are way more faster.Even the military and other models are as fast to deploy.

[GMArthur]

And who needs those autos and balisongs anyways? Endura wave and zip tie mods are way more faster.Even the military and other models are as fast to deploy.

It is hard to do a Y2K-Full Twirl-Arial Combo with an Endura. Balisong knives are fun to manipulate as well as having the strongest lock on a folder. I absolutely love my BM Morpho and would buy a Smallfly in a heartbeat if I could use Spyderco's excellent warranty and repair service. Bali's just take too much abuse to buy without being able to send them in for repair.

[HellHound]

It is hard to do a Y2K-Full Twirl-Arial Combo with an Endura. Balisong knives are fun to manipulate as well as having the strongest lock on a folder. I absolutely love my BM Morpho and would buy a Smallfly in a heartbeat if I could use Spyderco's excellent warranty and repair service. Bali's just take too much abuse to buy without being able to send them in for repair.

Guess it all depends on preference ,i love simple,fast,tactical folders,especially with a wave, very handy. But something i don't get,why are balisongs outlawed,why do ppl consider them special enough to ban from civilian use? No offence but a wave user could stab n slash faster rather than some1 who also takes time to whip out his bali.

[The Deacon]

It has been my observation that there is no requirement that laws be either logical or necessary. When you have a group of people whose job it is to create laws, you wind up with laws being created just to give the appearance of "doing something". At least that's the case here in the States. If it's different where you live, if all your laws make perfect sense, then either you are blessed or your current system of government has not been in place long enough for your lawmakers to start dreaming up totally idiotic ones.

[HellHound]

It has been my observation that there is no requirement that laws be either logical or necessary. When you have a group of people whose job it is to create laws, you wind up with laws being created just to give the appearance of "doing something". At least that's the case here in the States. If it's different where you live, if all your laws make perfect sense, then either you are blessed or your current system of government has not been in place long enough for your lawmakers to start dreaming up totally idiotic ones.

Well Deacon the laws over here are pretty much as fu*ked up as in the US. The government is corrupt, everyone is p!ssed but there afraid to take action, well the government spends money here and there,but I'm guessing there just laundering cash into there bank accounts, leaving the issue of making laws as there last place priority, seriously this situation is becoming more and more annoying,hopefully the new president will fix this.

[papaac]

With this discussion about autos coming out maybe someone can finally answer this question for me...

As I understand, it's completely legal to buy/own one of these types of knives if your Law Enforcement or Military...

So what about the rest of us Public Safety personnel...For instance, myself, and those in the fire service?

I've been told that by being in the profession that I'm in, that it's ok for me to purchase and own autos. Others have told me different. I've never been able to secure a "definitive" answer on this. Personally, I've never tried to purchase an auto before and put my "credentials" to the test so to speak.

My understanding is that in Texas, it is a defense to prosecution that you are military, LEO or EMT.

I have handled a few autos, and IMO, a Benchmade or Kershaw assisted open knife is actually faster opening.

[HellHound]

My understanding is that in Texas, it is a defense to prosecution that you are military, LEO or EMT.

I have handled a few autos, and IMO, a Benchmade or Kershaw assisted open knife is actually faster opening.

Dude,thats what I'm talkin bout,anything is faster than an auto these days. :)

[TrojanDonkey]

I think it absolutely retarded that I can NOT own an automatic knife or a balisong but can own a Ak 47 and a shotgun and can LEGALLY carry a .44 magnum or 21 shot 9mm Beretta. I do obey laws even if I dont agree with them but silly is as silly does.Many people have been killed with butcher knives and such so if a small auto or balisong is illegal it makes me think we need to change the laws.

[waco kid]

I think it absolutely retarded that I can NOT own an automatic knife or a balisong but can own a Ak 47 and a shotgun and can LEGALLY carry a .44 magnum or 21 shot 9mm Beretta. I do obey laws even if I dont agree with them but silly is as silly does.Many people have been killed with butcher knives and such so if a small auto or balisong is illegal it makes me think we need to change the laws.

Any law that prohibits a law-abiding citizen from owning weapons is dumb. Pass all the laws you want against people with a criminal record, but leave the rest of us alone.

[jackknifeh]

I think this forum was good. I'm pretty new to Spyderco forum but have enjoyed it. This is the first one that I have read all the way through. As users we need to know at least the basic laws so we don't buy something that will get us or others in trouble with the law. If you do already have something illegal just DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Why is that so hard to do?

imo: WE ALL SHOULD BE ABLE TO OWN ANY KINFE WE WANT!!! Is the issue dealing with crime or safety? Switchblade knives, assisted opening knives and such are definately a little more unsafe than a normal folding knife. I tried someone's assisted opening knife and carelessly cut myself a little. I also put a scratch on a beautiful chair. This is done by not being careful as to how close the kinfe was to something else when I opened it. I now babysit my grandson and hate to think what might happen if he got hold of one (or any knife of course). The only difference in the assisted open blades is the force of the spring. Some are pretty strong. He can't walk yet but I've already thought about it. I also would be hesitant to loan an assisted opening knife to someone not familiar with them. Who hasn't had someone say "Can I borrow your knife"? That happened to me once in a bar by someone I didn't know. Drinking people and very sharp objects. Not the best combo. I said I didn't have one because I didn't know the guy or how much he had had to drink. I'm not going to get an assisted opening knife for those reasons. I understand "assisted opening knifes" are legal.

Guns fall into the same catagory as far as I'm concerned. Every single gun or knife is a tool. How it is used is the issue. If I rob a convenience store using a long screwdriver will I be charged the same as if I used a knife or gun? I do think that automatic guns are a bit extreme for the normal homeowner but that's just because I don't want one. A gun is not an everyday tool in the USA now except for a handful of people that hunt for food. I don't mean the hunter that eats what he kills. I mean someone that needs to hunt for food. Very few of those people left in America. Before I offend anyone I'm not against hunting. I've hunted myself. If someone eats what they kill there is nothing wrong with that imo. BUT, if you shoot something just for fun that shows a level of maturity that is really low. I said maturity because I don't know how many birds I killed with my pellet rifle as a kid. I regret that now.

I've strayed a little, back to knives only.

As a crime issue why can't the law change to something like this: If you use a deadly weapon to threaten someone with harm or death you will be charged as if you actually did harm or kill that person. Example: I, in a right state of mind, rob a bank with a switchblade knife. I could be charged with pre-meditated murder and subject to whatever sentence is possible for me as if I did kill someone even if I never touched or hurt anyone. The USE of the tool would be the issue, not the fact that it was manufactured legally and I bought and owned it legally. If that was the law the rest of us could continue to open boxes, cut string, work around the house or on the job using any kind of knife we want.

When I started typing this was going to be a really short post. Sorry.

Jack

[Highlandwarrior]

This message is for TazKristi:
Fortunately I fall into the LEO catagory and can own any knife I want. Kansas where I'm from even includes EMS and a few other professions that are able to carry autos and bali's that have not been discussed here. (Not sure how that stands federally). I know I am a few years behind, however I was just introduced to the Spyderfly and would like to own one for work. I would like to know how to aquire one and how to get it to me. If you would rather not say on a forum due to any number of complications I can think of arrising, as an administrator you can send an email to me or ask me to call.

To all other members who have posted:
All of the discusion on this forum regarding laws restricting or not restricting, and the exceptions to the rule; I have yet to see but a very few laws that do not have exceptions or that can be enforced by the pure black and white printing in the law books or a way around it. KaliGman has stated it several times, the one thing that the law cannot account for is what every single person has- an opinion. Someone out there will always disagree.

[The Deacon]

This message is for TazKristi:
Fortunately I fall into the LEO catagory and can own any knife I want. Kansas where I'm from even includes EMS and a few other professions that are able to carry autos and bali's that have not been discussed here. (Not sure how that stands federally). I know I am a few years behind, however I was just introduced to the Spyderfly and would like to own one for work. I would like to know how to aquire one and how to get it to me. If you would rather not say on a forum due to any number of complications I can think of arrising, as an administrator you can send an email to me or ask me to call.

To all other members who have posted:
All of the discusion on this forum regarding laws restricting or not restricting, and the exceptions to the rule; I have yet to see but a very few laws that do not have exceptions or that can be enforced by the pure black and white printing in the law books or a way around it. KaliGman has stated it several times, the one thing that the law cannot account for is what every single person has- an opinion. Someone out there will always disagree.I'm not Kristi, but I can tell you the Spyderfly is not available, even to LEOs. Because some of the parts were imported, it was declared illegal by the 10th Federal Circuit Court and Spyderco was required to surrender all stock, all parts, and to make an effort to recover those knives already in circulation and surrender them as well. I expect that effort was less than 100% successful, so if you're ok with owning contraband, your only hope for acquiring one would be the secondary market. Your "legal to own" options would be a Smallfly or Szabofly. Many Spyderco dealers carry both and Spyderco may be able to sell you one at a discount.

[Highlandwarrior]

Deacon, thanks for the info and I guess I'm left with, more than likely fruitless, effort of waiting for Spyderco to make a very similar knife in the future. Or settle for the smallfly. Thanks

[DCDesigns]

If this is all true, how does a company like microtech exist? I dont know too many cops that want a $600 knife...

[The Deacon]

If this is all true, how does a company like microtech exist? I dont know too many cops that want a $600 knife...Short simple answer, because Microtech is located in Pennsylvania and thus not subject to the 10th US Circuit's rather creative interpretation of the law.

[jtoler_9]

I know this a little OT, but to the original poster who is, I think in law enforcement. How long until the feds redefine the legal definition of the switchblade to include assisted open knives. I would bet good money that's coming up next across the US not just in NY. You mentioned disposing of these illegal knives responsibly. Can you tell me how to do that? If the law is yet again redefined any chance we will see local buy back programs for folding knives?

[loonybin]

I know this a little OT, but to the original poster who is, I think in law enforcement. How long until the feds redefine the legal definition of the switchblade to include assisted open knives. I would bet good money that's coming up next across the US not just in NY. You mentioned disposing of these illegal knives responsibly. Can you tell me how to do that? If the law is yet again redefined any chance we will see local buy back programs for folding knives?

They already tried last year, but AKTI put out a big stink to every knife forum, and there was enough response to the fed's "comment period," plus some congresscritters' complaints that they backed off.

[Minibear453]

There's no reason why a balisong should be banned. Why, I can open my Endura faster than most balisongs.... I think. Unfortunately, due to the genius of our lawmakers, I can't compare. However, a wave should be faster, IMO. Anyways, aside from that, a balisong is a knife. It's no more dangerous than another folding knife, just more flashy. :cool:

Maybe I can see switchblades, because they open too "fast", but still. Fixed blades open faster. :D

A knife is a knife, unless it's a ballistic knife. No reason to have special restrictions on certain types of knives. Honestly, I wish the second amendment could have been written better, to allow more freedom. But then again, I guess they didn't even think of knives then, since everyone who had pants had a knife.

[Macaulay]

Obey the law, but make an effort to change it when it doesn't make sense.

CA banned open carry on the 1st of Jan 2011, which means since we're a shall not issue state a law abiding citizen can no longer carry a gun at all.

[jtoler_9]

I didn't know they banned carry in CA. That sucks. Some states like to follow CA. So this could be bad for everyone.

[phillipsted]

Personally, I blame the switchblade/bali laws on the actor Russ Tamblyn who waved a cheapo blade around during the rumble scene in West Side Story. :cool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Tamblyn (Russ Tamblyn)

TedP

[waco kid]

Personally, I blame the switchblade/bali laws on the actor Russ Tamblyn who waved a cheapo blade around during the rumble scene in West Side Story. :cool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Tamblyn (Russ Tamblyn)

TedP

Knives in general are primarily shown as weapons in the movies. Once in a while, a western will show a person using a knife as a practical/survival tool. Look up spyderco videos on youtube and you'll find an endless number of people showing how fast they can open their knife and go into some defensive pose.