What happend to "Black Talon" rounds?

[Mancer]

Hi sorry this is off topic from knives, but do any of you guys know why production of the Winchestor Black Talon ammo was stopped?



Im intending on purchasing my brothers Glock 21 (.45) which has only had 1 type of bullet its entire life, and thats Black Talon, we got a couple of boxes of the lill beuts left, but I was hoping to stock up on them once the guns in my name.

I dont understand the reasoning behind stopping production of such an awsome bullet, unless some of the idiotic "ban guns" morons somehow got it right to have them outlawed or something.



Any info on this would be appreciated, thanx guys



MaNcEr



It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

[357Sig]

The original Black Talon (nickel case, black bullet) is not available commercially. Winchester voluntarily took the bullet off the market. In the U.S. one would have to go to a gun show and find someone the had a box or two on there table. The new Black Talon is the Ranger T series and the .45 ACP stock number is RA4ST (885 fps and 400 ft/lbs of energy). There is also a +P version (all this info is on winchester.com [law enforcement]). It has been sanitized because the bullet does not have the black coating. This ammo is not available "over the counter" so to speak either. The best and sometime the only way to purchase this ammo is to go to gunsamerica.com or gunbroker.com and look under ammunition. FYI, the black coating is a proprietary substance called lubalox and what it did was reduce bullet to barrel friction thus reducing chamber pressure. It did not make the bullet penetrate body armor. If you cannot find Black Talon or the Ranger Series I would recommend the Remingtion 185 grain +P Golden Sabre for the .45 ACP.

[357Sig]

Please disgard the following posts, I was having troubles.

Edited by - 357Sig on 1/10/2002 12:56:13 PM

Edited by - 357Sig on 1/10/2002 12:57:38 PM

[357Sig]

Edited by - 357Sig on 1/10/2002 12:55:21 PM

[357Sig]

Edited by - 357Sig on 1/10/2002 12:54:56 PM

[357Sig]

Edited by - 357Sig on 1/10/2002 12:54:32 PM

[earthworm]

MaNcEr:See my post in'Glock vs Beretta' on this.In addition the Black Talon was the victim of bad press(&quot;Opens into buzzsaw-like blades that horribly mutulate flesh!Surgeon cuts finger removing Black Talon from shooting victim!&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.357Sig:Hadn't heard of the Ranger load-thanks for sharing.?May I assume you favor the .357Sig?I've heard it called the'Thunderbolt' for it's knockdown power.?How's recoil &amp; muzzle blast?

[earthworm]

MaNcEr:See my post in'Glock vs Beretta' on this.In addition the Black Talon was the victim of bad press(&quot;Opens into buzzsaw-like blades that horribly mutulate flesh!Surgeon cuts finger removing Black Talon from shooting victim!&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.357Sig:Hadn't heard of the Ranger load-thanks for sharing.?May I assume you favor the .357Sig?I've heard it called the'Thunderbolt' for it's knockdown power.?How's recoil &amp; muzzle blast?

[earthworm]

MaNcEr:See my post in'Glock vs Beretta' on this.In addition the Black Talon was the victim of bad press(&quot;Opens into buzzsaw-like blades that horribly mutulate flesh!Surgeon cuts finger removing Black Talon from shooting victim!&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.357Sig:Hadn't heard of the Ranger load-thanks for sharing.?May I assume you favor the .357Sig?I've heard it called the'Thunderbolt' for it's knockdown power.?How's recoil &amp; muzzle blast?

[earthworm]

MaNcEr:See my post in'Glock vs Beretta' on this.In addition the Black Talon was the victim of bad press(&quot;Opens into buzzsaw-like blades that horribly mutulate flesh!Surgeon cuts finger removing Black Talon from shooting victim!&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.357Sig:Hadn't heard of the Ranger load-thanks for sharing.?May I assume you favor the .357Sig?I've heard it called the'Thunderbolt' for it's knockdown power.?How's recoil &amp; muzzle blast?

[earthworm]

My apologies for the multiple posts.Sorry.

[357Sig]

Earthworm, may favorite .357 Sig gun is the Glock 33. The .357 Sig is a great caliber for defense and to shoot recreationally. When you shoot a box you think &quot;wow, I really did some shootin' there.&quot; Some loads are tamer than others. I have shot the .357 Sig Ranger Series load and it is mild compared to the Proload .357 Sig load (about a four foot muzzle blast from a 3.5 in barrel). Recoil flips muzzle up as opposed to a .45 Acp which pushes back into your hand. Blastics are good, just not enough real world shootings to back it up. It is a little bolt of lightning. I like knives but my first love will always be guns.

[357Sig]

Hey MaNcEr: For .45 ACP, you should try New Generation Ammunition. NGA makes a 105 grain .45 ACP +P that clocks @ 1500 fps and the best news is it is from South Africa. Just type New Generation Ammunition in your search engine and you should find some information, that is if you are not familiar with it. Anyway, just a thought.

[sks]

Try Winchester SXT. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Steve

[Mancer]

Wow, didnt expect as many responses after just 1 day, thanx alot guys, Im no expert on ammo or firearms as of yet, but just like my knives, Im learning as quickly as I can, reading and absorbing as much info as possible.

I read the black talons where removed completly from production, didnt realise that some &quot;new versions&quot; if you can call it that were made, I heard about the bad press it got in the USA, hell I even remember seeing a movie (said it was based on true story) about a guy in USA who was attacked by some nut with a 9mm using black talons, the thing I remember most was the guys mom was jumping up and down about &quot;how can people be allowed to use such ammo?&quot;

Btw, thanx about the new gen ammo, I havent heard about it as of yet, I know South Africa make some bloody good weaponry, so I think I'll have a good ol look at what my country pumps out first (soon as my license goes through, if it does)

Once again, thanx for the info, if you guys have any suggestions or stories on what your fav ammo/firearm...so on so forth is plz post.

Cheers

MaNcEr

It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

[bell]

I would go with Cor Bon as a good substitue for Black Talon.

[bell]

I would go with Cor Bon as a good substitue for Black Talon.

[bell]

I would go with Cor Bon as a good substitue for Black Talon.

[Lsaulog]

I agree with Bell.

Cor-Bon ammo is what's in my EDC.

I've also recently read that the newer Federal Hydra-Shok has had good results. Speer Gold-Dots and Remington Golden Sabre also received good press. The Ranger ammo mentioned, I thought, was LEO only. Lastly, there was a fragmenting bullet from Triton that was suppose to be the end-all/cure-all &quot;magic bullet&quot; but I haven't seen much on it in recent memory.

"Hope for the best. Be prepared for the worst. You'll never be disappointed."

[bell]

I have been shooting Fiocchi ammo and mentioned CorBon as a good subititue for Black Talon in previous post. I made a search for CorBon on the internet and ordered via internet. IMO CorBon and BT produce a better &quot;spit&quot; out of the 9mm instead of the &quot;whap&quot; of the Fiocchi which aids(me)in trigger squeez. It is simply a better feel and and better product and for sure a bigger price tag.

[Bill Burns]

Remington Golden Saber rounds are pretty good too and is what my agency issues. The Speer Gold Dot is an interesting round, since the jacket is actually plated onto the round. I had an opportunity to observe some ballistic testing of the Gold Dot. When fired through glass, every round shed the core, except the Gold Dot. IMHO, generally any hollowpoint round will do...but it is where you hit that is more important than what you hit it with.

[Mancer]

Many thanx for the opinions, luckily Ive found out that Black Talons, or Rangers as they are now called are still available to the public in South Africa, unfortunately due to idiotic media they been pulled from you guys.

Personally my belief is this, if some1s trying to kill me, and i shoot in defense, i dont want him getting up in the near to distant future.

Thats my reason for the .45 rounds

Thanx again guys

MaNcEr

It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

[liko]

South Africa. Aren't you guys also allowed to have remote control mace sprayers in the dash and self-defense flame throwers that shoot out the side of the car from under the doors to prevent carjackings?

Not being accusing, just pointing out that different countries have different standards on what's acceptable. There are many people here in the US, and probably some in SA, that think guns can have no good consequences, and it's only that pesky 2nd Amendment that keeps the violent crime rate so high. Then there are others who think that the only way they can resolve a conflict is to empty a clip into the other guy. My opinion is that if you feel that's what you need in order to defend yourself, you should be able to carry it, but if you are using lethal force as anything other than the very last resort to protect your life or those around you, you are making a mistake, and at that point you are commiting a crime.

I don't hold with fragmenting bullets. Too much damage. A handgun, IMO, should be used to stop an attacker, not solely to kill him. A .357 or 9mm hollow-point will bring down most assailants, and a .45 will take down a 300-lb. weightlifter who's on PCP and heroin. Fragmenting, exploding, and soft-body bullets are overkill. When a gun is fired, somebody's going to answer for it, and if your assailant dies after you shoot him, that somebody will probably be you.

*steps down off soap box*

Wise man say, forgiveness is divine. Remember that when your <img src="http://www.spyderco.com/forum/spyder.gif" border=0> bites you!

[Hoosierdaddy]

Liko,

You always shoot to &quot;stop&quot; an attacker not to kill. Death is an unfortunate by product of shooting someone.

The .357 Magnum is quite a potent round, although you may have been refering to .357 Sig. The Magnum actually has better stopping power than .45 A.C.P., so if you were to go up against a &quot;heavy&quot; attacker choose the Magnum. I myself don't care much for 9mm, and would not catogorize it with the .357 Mag. Pope John Paul II was shot 3 times with a 9mm (two in the stomach and one in the wrist) clearly where he was &quot;big&quot; and survived to pray another day. Divine intervention ? Maybe. Some people think 9mm is adequate, I think their wrong! Enough about the 9mm bashing.

[Mancer]

yes indeed we do have that wonderful blaster (flamer) invention (www.blaster.co.za) and I infact will be purchasing it A.S.A.P for my car.
The fact nowdays is this.
2 years ago cars where been hijacked for the cars, now it seems to have moved on to the standard of hijacking to kill the occupant and then having the car as a bonus.
If you are drawn on by some thug, and his @$$ is flamed, will you really pitty the b@stard?

I think not, give him a taste of whats to come


MaNcEr

It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

[45rook]

Plastic Guns + High Powered Rounds = KAAAABOOOOOOOOOM. Just kidden I know were you can get the black talons in 9mm. You can get them at Old Sacramento Armory in Sacramento.