Practical Tactical Pens?

[Knifewing]

Has anyone had experience with either or both the Surefire and Tuff-Writer tactical pens? I've narrowed my choice down to those two (the BM is too obviously a weapon for travel carry IMO). The SF has a twist mechanism so no cap to lose and, for what it's worth, a glassbreaker. The Tuff-Writer does have a cap (that seems secure) and is the one that most appeals to me looks-wise. They're about the same size and weight and can be found online for about the same price. But I'm wondering how they actually write and carry in EDC use. The SF has a fine cartridge; the TW uses an version of the Fisher cartridge concept. And of course, there's the question of whether anyone (i.e. me) actually NEEDS an expensive pen with SD properties. But as with Spyderco knives, want often trumps need:)

Happy Holidays and thanks for any help and info you can provide.

knifewing

[RLR]

a) Fisher Space pen cartridges are OK - not great, not bad. I wouldn't use them for intense writing.
b) I think the SF uses different cartridges so you can choose - good in my opinion.
c) You don't need one.
d) "Primary Printer" or Carpenter's Pencil are 10 cents. A Sharpie $2. You get the point.

[vampyrewolf]

Fisher cartridges aren't bad for making notes, but I found the bullet pen to be hard to write with for a couple hours... haven't looked at the 2 pens you're asking about yet, but keep in mind that you'll want something you can use for extended sessions. Simply getting a pen BECAUSE it uses the fisher cartridge isn't much of a reason. :p

need vs want... how many times did someone in your elementary class get stabbed in the hand or arm with a pencil ;) Cost, $.10 ?

When I go out drinking, which means I can't & won't carry more than a single small knife (vnox usually), I have a few pens. I'd rather use and lose a $0.25 ballpoint pen than a decent pen. The point is pain compliance, and anything will work for that (even the 100% PC roll of quarters).

[Brad S.]

I personally EDC a Surefire pen. I looked at the Tuff writer pens but decided against it because I didnt want a cap to lose. The cartridge that comes with the surefire is actually really good, just not my cup of tea, so I replaced it with a fisher pen refill, since then ive never looked back.

One of the fun things I did once was to go to a high end pen store and try all the refills they had in the Surefire. I never found one that didnt fit. They had one that came from a Lamy that they said was impossible to fit in anything other than a Lamy. It fit the Surefire perfectly.

The coating on it as well is a tough as nails! The reason I get stuff like this is because I trash stuff in my pocket. I get sawdust, metal dust, metals shavings... etc in my pockets all the time, it eats whatever is in my pocket alive. Ive EDCed my surefire for at least 6months and its still flawless. I highly recommend the Surefire.

[wescobts]

I have been curious about these pens, I too trash my pocket gear with debris and thought they would be more durable. I looked at the BM and they are nice, but $100.00 is a lot for a pen, which I would probably lose. :o

[ousanas]

I picked up the BM pen for like 60 on ebay, it's a nice pen, does look a bit like a weapon, but the point works GREAT for my work PPC as a stylus. So I can pass it off as that if I need to.

it's pretty comfortable to write with, haven't tried it out for really long writing sessions, but it's nice, goes well with my baliyo for the opposite end of the "Extreme Pen" Spectrum

[David Lowry]

I personally don't care for them at all. I don't see what they can do that I cannot do with a Surefire 6P or a $.90 Bic pen, or a Sharpie...........or

[Dr. Snubnose]

Hard body Pens for SD are OK when nothing else is available to you, but they can go for more than most want to spend, once they are billed as a SD tool. A few people mentioned the 10 cent number 2 pencil....it works real well if you have to write with it, thrusting one into someone's body is a whole other story...9 out 10 times it will break on first thrust....but here's a little trick, take that number two pencil..wrap the body with plumber's tape and now you are good to go, not only won't it break but it is now up to the task of multiple thrusts and has deep penetration power.....;)Doc:D

[ozspyder]

Hahah nice one Doc.

I actually used a pen to do the same trick when I was in school. I was constantly bullied by this one knob ! And I finally broke one day when he was standing over me.... red pen into the fleshy part of the thigh :D He didn't like me much after that. Twas funny though watching him scream with a pen wobbling about his thighs :p

[CUMAONE]

Waysun Johnny Tsai from Tsai's Kung Fu International in Chicago has some good videos on you tube on the "Practical Tactical pen".

[CUMAONE]

I personally don't care for them at all. I don't see what they can do that I cannot do with a Surefire 6P or a $.90 Bic pen, or a Sharpie...........or


$.90 Bic pen has no impact power through things like leather jackets, sharpies pop in half and pencils snap, especially with wrist and joint locks and come along techniques. we tested them all and will be posting videos on YOUTUBE soon. The Surefire pen worked great.

[CUMAONE]

I personally don't care for them at all. I don't see what they can do that I cannot do with a Surefire 6P or a $.90 Bic pen, or a Sharpie...........or


Tactical Flashlights will work as a last ditch for impact, not locks and control unless they are longer.

Cilvilians and executives carry pens all the time though, not flashlights in their suits and pants.

We broke a nice $120.00 flashlight during our impact tests (the internal electronics) the warranty does not/will not cover it, we tried calling the company.

Now we have a $120.. tactial flashlight that will not turn off.

So that is something to think about too.

[Shenmue728]

I've looked at me Baliyo a couple of times and thought how it would work as an impact weapon if the twisty part was Titanium or aluminum... Thats just me though. I've thought of a tacticle pen before but i normally have at least 3 knives on me at all times, so there was no need.

[CUMAONE]

I've looked at me Baliyo a couple of times and thought how it would work as an impact weapon if the twisty part was Titanium or aluminum... Thats just me though. I've thought of a tacticle pen before but i normally have at least 3 knives on me at all times, so there was no need.

Let's be real honest. How many times have you pulled your blade and stabbed someone on the street?

If more than once, you are looking to do it and should not be carrying a blade.

If you are in the sandbox, and your life is depending on it? Ok.

But, cops, bouncers, security guards, store managers, executives and moms jogging on the beach don't get all stabby.

My wife is 5'2 and 110 pounds. if she pulled a knife and got taken forom her by the attacker, what then?

If I sliced a person to ribbon's with martial expertise 50 times in a bar for shoving and grabbing me, is that life or death self defense?

Impact weapons are the way to go... Unless there is no choice left to use a tool like a knife, and then you better be more than damn good with it.

The same rule applies to firearms. Those of us that have the privilage to carry a concealed weapon, want to keep that privilage, our guns don't pop out at ever chance we get, if ever. Unless, of course our jobs call for it.

The pen replaces the Kuboton, that's it.

We like to carry the best, most reliable firearms, the best knives, the best gear, why not the best impact practical SD pen? Plenty of good pens out there under 50.00, just don't think a pencil will do.

A pencil wrapped in tape is a shank, explain that to cop after you use it.

That will never end up in my suit jacket or in a boardroom meeting.

On an airplane? Forget about it.

[Shenmue728]

Let's be real honest. How many times have you pulled your blade and stabbed someone on the street?

If more than once, you are looking to do it and should not be carrying a blade.

If you are in the sandbox, and your life is depending on it? Ok.

But, cops, bouncers, security guards, store managers, executives and moms jogging on the beach don't get all stabby.

My wife is 5'2 and 110 pounds. if she pulled a knife and got taken forom her by the attacker, what then?

If I sliced a person to ribbon's with martial expertise 50 times in a bar for shoving and grabbing me, is that life or death self defense?

Impact weapons are the way to go... Unless there is no choice left to use a tool like a knife, and then you better be more than damn good with it.

The same rule applies to firearms. Those of us that have the privilage to carry a concealed weapon, want to keep that privilage, our guns don't pop out at ever chance we get, if ever. Unless, of course our jobs call for it.

The pen replaces the Kuboton, that's it.

We like to carry the best, most reliable firearms, the best knives, the best gear, why not the best impact practical SD pen? Plenty of good pens out there under 50.00, just don't think a pencil will do.

A pencil wrapped in tape is a shank, explain that to cop after you use it.

That will never end up in my suit jacket or in a boardroom meeting.

On an airplane? Forget about it.

I do agree with you that impact weapons are ideal for non-life threatening SD situations. I carry a Titanium Cold Steel Ti-Lite for the primary reason that it makes an excellent impact weapon closed. If i had my choice of tools I would carry an ASP baton but California has them illegal under thee Dangerous Weapons Law. They are somewhat reasonable with folders, however, and I feel comfortable carring them. If i traveled alot or was in a more restrictive environment a pen would be a better option for me.

I have never carried a knife with the sole intention of using it on another person. Everyday I carry my P'Kal and dont have to use it is a good day in my book.

[jlfletcher]

I have never used a knife for SD purposes, however I have used a kubotan a couple of times and an expandable batons once. They kubotans were highly effective for there size and I carry one daily. The expandable baton worked like a champ but it is impractical to carry in civilian clothes. The properly designed tactical pen can replace the kubotan in places where it would not be allowed, I.E. courthouses, planes, offices, so on and so forth. The Benchmade pen screams weapon to me, but the Surefire looks to be a hell of a hidden last ditch defense.

[MacTech]

They're getting hard to find, but one of the best "self defense" or "tactical" pen is the Rotring 600 series, it's available in clicky ballpoint, capped rollerball and fountain pen formats

the pen body is a solid piece of brass, and has decent heft, it's machined with six flat sides and would likely make a decent striking weapon, and best of all, it looks like a drafting pen, it looks completely un-weaponlike

this is the rollerball model
http://homepage.mac.com/mactechg4/.Pictures/R600-1.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/mactechg4/.Pictures/R600-2.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/mactechg4/.Pictures/R600-3.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/mactechg4/.Pictures/R600-4.jpg

[CUMAONE]

They're getting hard to find, but one of the best "self defense" or "tactical" pen is the Rotring 600 series, it's available in clicky ballpoint, capped rollerball and fountain pen formats

the pen body is a solid piece of brass, and has decent heft, it's machined with six flat sides and would likely make a decent striking weapon, and best of all, it looks like a drafting pen, it looks completely un-weaponlike

this is the rollerball model
http://homepage.mac.com/mactechg4/.Pictures/R600-1.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/mactechg4/.Pictures/R600-2.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/mactechg4/.Pictures/R600-3.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/mactechg4/.Pictures/R600-4.jpg


Nice.

We have had the chance to review and test several pens...The Benchmade 100 series, Surefire, Tuff Writer, Mil-Tac and Rick Hinderer, Fisher Space pen and Knightstix tactical Stylus.

My favorite by far is the Rick Hinderer modular heavy duty pen and titanium modular kuboton. WAAAAY COOL.

The best value is the tactical stylus, about 7-8 bucks on Ebay.

[CUMAONE]

I have never used a knife for SD purposes, however I have used a kubotan a couple of times and an expandable batons once. They kubotans were highly effective for there size and I carry one daily. The expandable baton worked like a champ but it is impractical to carry in civilian clothes. The properly designed tactical pen can replace the kubotan in places where it would not be allowed, I.E. courthouses, planes, offices, so on and so forth. The Benchmade pen screams weapon to me, but the Surefire looks to be a hell of a hidden last ditch defense.

I like the gel refill in the Surefire better than I do the Fisher space pen ball point in the other pens. Just my preference, I think its writes smoother.

[CUMAONE]

I Know I am all over this thread (sorry).

My classmate just posted "Waysun Johnny Tsai Practical Tactical Pen Street Defense part 3" on YOUTUBE.

It demonstrates the diferences in SD performance between a Sharpie, #2 Pencil, Surefire and Tactical stylus.

Part 4 an 5 should be up soon.


:D

[Toad310]

I carry a Rick Hinderer Ti Kubaton with the pen attachment, and I love it.

Haven't used it yet, but there have been a few wise-guys that came about as close as it can get to be on the receiving end of Rick's cool kubaton.

Right after I first got it, I was given a traffic citation by one of the members of the California Highway Patrol who were "Waiting for me after the show" and I signed the ticket with it!

Hinderer's come with the Fisher Space Pen, and I like it. I really do not make that many notes with it, but it is my EDC pen.

Thanks Rick!

Toad310

[Toad310]

Let's be real honest. How many times have you pulled your blade and stabbed someone on the street?

If more than once, you are looking to do it and should not be carrying a blade.

If you are in the sandbox, and your life is depending on it? Ok.

But, cops, bouncers, security guards, store managers, executives and moms jogging on the beach don't get all stabby.

My wife is 5'2 and 110 pounds. if she pulled a knife and got taken forom her by the attacker, what then?

If I sliced a person to ribbon's with martial expertise 50 times in a bar for shoving and grabbing me, is that life or death self defense?

Impact weapons are the way to go... Unless there is no choice left to use a tool like a knife, and then you better be more than damn good with it.

The same rule applies to firearms. Those of us that have the privilage to carry a concealed weapon, want to keep that privilage, our guns don't pop out at ever chance we get, if ever. Unless, of course our jobs call for it.

The pen replaces the Kuboton, that's it.

We like to carry the best, most reliable firearms, the best knives, the best gear, why not the best impact practical SD pen? Plenty of good pens out there under 50.00, just don't think a pencil will do.

A pencil wrapped in tape is a shank, explain that to cop after you use it.

That will never end up in my suit jacket or in a boardroom meeting.

On an airplane? Forget about it.

I am a photographer, I could easily explain a pencil wrapped in Gaffer's Tape. A trick us location guys use is to wrap Sharpies with Gaffer's Tape, in order to have some tape with us without carrying the entire roll.

TAPE! I must spend about $4000.00 or more a year on Gaffers tape! sounds like a lot, but we do some big projects, and I Don't ship Expendables back to the studio.

[bigkahunasix]

Hinderer Ti Pen. Wonderful compliance device, I keep mine capped with a "bullet" point cap and a "DNA" sampler at the opposite end. Very effective so far.

[CUMAONE]

I am a photographer, I could easily explain a pencil wrapped in Gaffer's Tape. A trick us location guys use is to wrap Sharpies with Gaffer's Tape, in order to have some tape with us without carrying the entire roll.

TAPE! I must spend about $4000.00 or more a year on Gaffers tape! sounds like a lot, but we do some big projects, and I Don't ship Expendables back to the studio.

And... so you are saying that you carry that in your front or back pocket to bars, resturants, night clubs and on airplanes? TSA, says "ok, you are a photagrapher, heres your shank back, have a nice flight?

Maybe, maybe not. I am talking about everyday, not just during work hours.

If you shanked some asshole 8 times with that on a sunday in a mall parking lot and that's all the photo gear you had on you, I would seriously question your intent and doubt you reasoning on why you had that weapon ready to go on your person while you were shopping.

That's like saying, I'm an auto mechanic so I walk aroung with a plumber's wrench in my pocket everyday. Not sure that would fly.

And if that taped up pencil did nothing more that make your attacker more aggressive, than what?

All I know is that a month ago on my Family vacation to Disney, I walked around the theme park with a pen in my pocket for various reasons.

More practical.

But again, different strokes for different folks...

[tea]

Something that I feel is being over looked is the fact that all of the pens being mentioned are designed specifically for 'self defense.' They are not innocent. They are not simply pens. They are marketing at its finest.

I do not see the difference between a knife, a modified pencil, or a tactical pen. They all display evidence of lethal intent if used. I strongly believe it would be very difficult to prove self defense using a pen as a convenient improvised weapon when a very little bit of research would show a thousand Google entries referencing the pen as a weapon. There is a big difference between the $150 Surefire Self Defense designed pen (or any of the other brands) and a $0.50 Bic. It is also silly to think any LEO would not be familiar with brands like Surefire and Benchmade.

Trying to convince anyone that it is simply coincidence that the pen you chose for school or work and just happened to stab someone with, is also the same product a tactical company just happens to advertise as a hidden weapon.

[CUMAONE]

I carry a Rick Hinderer Ti Kubaton with the pen attachment, and I love it.

Haven't used it yet, but there have been a few wise-guys that came about as close as it can get to be on the receiving end of Rick's cool kubaton.

Right after I first got it, I was given a traffic citation by one of the members of the California Highway Patrol who were "Waiting for me after the show" and I signed the ticket with it!

Hinderer's come with the Fisher Space Pen, and I like it. I really do not make that many notes with it, but it is my EDC pen.

Thanks Rick!

Toad310

Yes, Rick Hinderer thought of pretty much everything with his pens and kubotons, including the tools to tighten and loosen the attachments.

Extremely thought out design, well worth the price to me.:D

His kuboton is a little longer than his heavy duty pen AND you can add a pen to it, awesome!

[CUMAONE]

Link for Tactial pen defense part 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I_UQzftnQw

[CUMAONE]

Something that I feel is being over looked is the fact that all of the pens being mentioned are designed specifically for 'self defense.' They are not innocent. They are not simply pens. They are marketing at its finest.

I do not see the difference between a knife, a modified pencil, or a tactical pen. They all display evidence of lethal intent if used. I strongly believe it would be very difficult to prove self defense using a pen as a convenient improvised weapon when a very little bit of research would show a thousand Google entries referencing the pen as a weapon. There is a big difference between the $150 Surefire Self Defense designed pen (or any of the other brands) and a $0.50 Bic. It is also silly to think any LEO would not be familiar with brands like Surefire and Benchmade.

Trying to convince anyone that it is simply coincidence that the pen you chose for school or work and just happened to stab someone with, is also the same product a tactical company just happens to advertise as a hidden weapon.

Very true indeed,

However, there are plenty of non marketed heavy and strong executive and non expensive pens that will work. Levinger makes several. Benchmades, SF are perfect for LEO.

My main point is that if you want a tool for SD or anything else, use a solid one. A $0.50 Bic or pencil that breaks and snaps and aggrivates someone while you are in the middle of some ****, just does not hack it.

If my wife goes jogging or bike riding, I want her to have something that is reliable.

We can deal with the legal ramifications later if need be.

And there is a HUGE difference between a knife and a pen.

My Extrema Ractio MF2 that I carry daily has almost a 6 inch blade. That next to a designer pen is night and day.

[tea]

My main point is that if you want a tool for SD or anything else, use a solid one. A $0.50 Bic or pencil that breaks and snaps and aggrivates someone while you are in the middle of some ****, just does not hack it.

If my wife goes jogging or bike riding, I want her to have something that is reliable.

We can deal with the legal ramifications later if need be.



Fair enough.



And there is a HUGE difference between a knife and a pen.

My Extrema Ractio MF2 that I carry daily has almost a 6 inch blade. That next to a designer pen is night and day.


Yes- but not the point I was making. I meant that in a situation where a person has already been stabbed. Whether a knife, modified object, or tactical pen is used, the situation will not look like an instinctive, unplanned reaction to violence. These are all specific tools that could lead to a verdict of intent. That's all.

[CUMAONE]

Fair enough.




Yes- but not the point I was making. I meant that in a situation where a person has already been stabbed. Whether a knife, modified object, or tactical pen is used, the situation will not look like an instinctive, unplanned reaction to violence. These are all specific tools that could lead to a verdict of intent. That's all.


That's why we push tactical pens as impact weapons. The points on these generally will not "stab" though a coat, leather whatever. However, it is used as an IMPACT weapon, to stop, stun,drop the attacker or whatever and hurt like all hell on impact.

Anyone that thinks he can drive one through somebody and stab them are full of it. They are not knives.

Impact weapons are perfect Pressure points, shots to vital striking areas, joint locks, come alongs for bouncers, cops or security guards.

Almost anything can be used a lethal weapon. That all depends on how far things need to go and no one will know that until that exact moment.

When I bounced and did executive security for 12 years, I never ever pulled my knife out once. I did use kubotons and other things to take drunks and assholes down, hem them up or whatever, never with lethal force and all worked out just fine.

Now if someone wants to try to crush or crack someone skull open over and over again for the hell of it, thats a different story. I did not think that I was talking to "killer people" on this thread.

For the record, a Rick Hinderer Heavy duty tactical pen, with the round pen cap on will never stick out the side of someone neck no matter how hard you try.

It'll knock the fight out of them for sure though.

[CUMAONE]

Fair enough.




Yes- but not the point I was making. I meant that in a situation where a person has already been stabbed. Whether a knife, modified object, or tactical pen is used, the situation will not look like an instinctive, unplanned reaction to violence. These are all specific tools that could lead to a verdict of intent. That's all.


Good point too.

[tea]

Good point too.

Cheers.


ps. Apologies to the OP for the slightly off topic shift. An interesting little discussion nonetheless. :)

[Toad310]

And... so you are saying that you carry that in your front or back pocket to bars, resturants, night clubs and on airplanes? TSA, says "ok, you are a photagrapher, heres your shank back, have a nice flight?

Maybe, maybe not. I am talking about everyday, not just during work hours.

If you shanked some asshole 8 times with that on a sunday in a mall parking lot and that's all the photo gear you had on you, I would seriously question your intent and doubt you reasoning on why you had that weapon ready to go on your person while you were shopping.

That's like saying, I'm an auto mechanic so I walk aroung with a plumber's wrench in my pocket everyday. Not sure that would fly.

And if that taped up pencil did nothing more that make your attacker more aggressive, than what?

All I know is that a month ago on my Family vacation to Disney, I walked around the theme park with a pen in my pocket for various reasons.

More practical.

But again, different strokes for different folks...

Hey, there is nothing wrong with having a shrpie, which is what I stated, with tape. Odd, I have had it on NAOC with SEC DEF, and Air Force one. It is a pen with tape!

This is starting to sound alot like USN.

Sometimes, I regret sharing my professional background on places like this. www.Redwayphoto.com if you doubt me.

[CUMAONE]

Hey, there is nothing wrong with having a shrpie, which is what I stated, with tape. Odd, I have had it on NAOC with SEC DEF, and Air Force one. It is a pen with tape!

This is starting to sound alot like USN.

Sometimes, I regret sharing my professional background on places like this. www.Redwayphoto.com if you doubt me.

Ok, if you have been on Air Force One, then clearly you are authorized to carry more than tape on a sharpie.

I am talking about everyday practical use for everyday people here, not CIA or secret service agents or military on NAOC with SEC DEF or anything like that.

Calm down dude, nobody doubts you.

I personally don't know you to doubt you.

I just think that any LEO would doubt a statement like this one below from any civilian photagrapher after he used it in a SD situation.

"I am a photographer, I could easily explain a pencil wrapped in Gaffer's Tape"

My father in law is a 6'1 black man and a part time casual/professional photographer, does weddings and stuff for IDOT. No one can there can tell me that in an urban area if he whipped out a pencil or sharpie wrapped in tape and ****ed someone up with it that the cops wouldn't be all over his ass for using it.

They would say his pencil wrapped in tape was a shank and he was looking for trouble by carrying it. Even though he's like 59 years old.

If you have the credentials you say you do, you probably carry more than tape on a stick.

As far as you mentioned on sharpies, I guess wrapped in tape they would not snap in half.

Again, how many people/executives and housewives carry pens on them daily vs sharpies wrapped in tape? or am I missing something here?

[CUMAONE]

Hey, there is nothing wrong with having a shrpie, which is what I stated, with tape. Odd, I have had it on NAOC with SEC DEF, and Air Force one. It is a pen with tape!

This is starting to sound alot like USN.

Sometimes, I regret sharing my professional background on places like this. www.Redwayphoto.com if you doubt me.


And hey, if you are Mr. Redway, way to go!:o That is a pretty impressive website and portfolio you got there.

[Toad310]

And hey, if you are Mr. Redway, way to go!:o That is a pretty impressive website and portfolio you got there.

Understand your point above.

Ya, it's me. Been at it going on 17 years. My wife created the site herself. We maintain a studio in the desert in California.

Actually, the best weapon a photographer can have is a monopod. And, you can take them on a commercial flight, no problem.

[KaliGman]

There are several interesting points of view brought up by CUMAONE in this recently resurrected thread.

The view that a pencil, sharpie or more "flimsy" item may break was brought up. This is a valid point, in my opinion, especially in the hard hitting, resisting world of real fighting on the street. However, the fact that they may be good for one or two "shots" should not be disregarded; in real fighting, the use of what you have is way better than lamenting what you left at home. One or two applications, or more, depending on how they are used, of a tool prior to its destruction may be adequate in a self-defense situation. It is important to not rely on such devices to withstand rigorous use, expect them to break, and be prepared to move on to empty hand or the next expedient weapon (or real weapon--depending on what you are carrying with you).

This brings me to the dedicated "SD" pens. The statement that a "...a Rick Hinderer Heavy duty tactical pen, with the round pen cap on will never stick out the side of someone neck no matter how hard you try...It'll knock the fight out of them for sure though.." is not exactly accurate. Nothing, absent decapitation, is a for sure and for real stop every time in real fighting with handheld weaponry. Since I have seen guys fight through OC, stun guns, batons, .45 ACP rounds to the chest, etc., I don't expect anyone I fight to stop from one strike with a tacticool pen. "Strike to stop," just like "shoot to stop" should be the mantra. Also, the tactical pens are much more sturdy than most pens, but can still break, just as other high quality devices (including firearms) sometimes fail.

I went to YouTube and reviewed the videos on pen use which you were promoting in your posts. I have a couple of observations. First, there was an awful lot of powerful hammerfists with a pen to the side of the neck in the "Part 3" video. This area is a "red area" on LEO baton striking charts for a reason--a hard strike here can induce serious injury or death. With an unarmed opponent, such as that shown in the video, a hard strike to the neck with the pens shown, impacting on the area of the carotid artery as shown in the video, could be very injurious or fatal. Jumping to potentially lethal force in response to what appeared to be a simple empty hand attack is going to be problematic. The standard in utilizing lethal force is that a reasonable man would have been in fear of death or serious, debilitating bodily injury from the attack faced.

In another video, I saw a man dressed in a suit drop a Blackberry to draw a pen and use it as a self-defense tool. Under the real stress of fighting during my law enforcement career, as well as during the various martial arts and law enforcement officer survival cources I have instructed where we have done hard core sparring/testing of such procedures, I have found that the vast majority of people are better off using what is already in their hand or using empty hands to respond to the first, unexpected, close range attack. A device can be drawn later. As training goes up, the ability to select and deploy a tool while fighting goes up, and the man in the video is probably trained enough to easiliy accomplish this. Many are not. I, personally, would have struck the opponent with the Blackberry and my empty hand, locked the elbow with the Blackberry and done a takedown. This may have broken the Blackberry--and since mine is government issue and I am tired of getting those 3AM emails or phone calls directing me to report back to work for some emergency or other, this would be a bonus:p.

As for the tape on Toad310s gear, it all comes down to articulation. Speaking as a LEO, if Toad gave the explanation that he has given on this forum, he would probably be OK in most situations. A pen or pencil is a pretty crappy weapon when you look at what LEOs face every single day, and a gainfully employed photographer giving a reasonable explanation in a calm and confident manner would get the benefit of the doubt in many situations.

Your assertion that you can't thrust a pen through a leather coat has intrigued me. I just might have to try. I can do a thrust through layered denim, using a couple of different kali techniques and a decent pen. I will say that a thick leather jacket, worn over a thick sweater, is a major challenge for cutting technique (or thrusting with a small knife). I just finished some responses to questions I was asked for an interview in an upcoming magazine article in regard to self-defense with a small blade, and winter clothing was covered. I see thrusting a pen through a leather coat as more "a stunt" than a realistic defense technique in any case. Going for more vulnerable targets, as indicated in your post, is the correct way to go, in my opinion.

I see that you discussed the use of a flashlight as a kubotan. I prefer them to pens in many cases. I have successfully accomplished locks and takedowns with the little Surefire Executive (single 123 cell light), so it can be done with the shorter as well as the longer lights. Of all the "improvised kubotans" I actually prefer a high quality, closed folding knife. The option to deploy the blade is there if necessary, and I have never damaged a folder in such use, unlike what can sometimes happen to pens, etc. This is not to say that a folder could not be broken in such a manner of use, it is just saying that I have yet to see it. Since I said that, I'll probably have to use an Emerson or a Spyderco as a compliance tool today and will probably break it:(.

Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting the links to your videos. It is nice to see a traditional martial arts school explore some options for the real world of the street. The training academy is a good place to practice, as the street can be a harsh teacher. The important thing to remember is that the academy is not the street, and that lessons learned in the "for real and for true" fighting on the street need to be incorporated into the academy. Have fun with your exploration of fighting tools and good luck with your training.

[CUMAONE]

There are several interesting points of view brought up by CUMAONE in this recently resurrected thread.

The view that a pencil, sharpie or more "flimsy" item may break was brought up. This is a valid point, in my opinion, especially in the hard hitting, resisting world of real fighting on the street. However, the fact that they may be good for one or two "shots" should not be disregarded; in real fighting, the use of what you have is way better than lamenting what you left at home. One or two applications, or more, depending on how they are used, of a tool prior to its destruction may be adequate in a self-defense situation. It is important to not rely on such devices to withstand rigorous use, expect them to break, and be prepared to move on to empty hand or the next expedient weapon (or real weapon--depending on what you are carrying with you).

This brings me to the dedicated "SD" pens. The statement that a "...a Rick Hinderer Heavy duty tactical pen, with the round pen cap on will never stick out the side of someone neck no matter how hard you try...It'll knock the fight out of them for sure though.." is not exactly accurate. Nothing, absent decapitation, is a for sure and for real stop every time in real fighting with handheld weaponry. Since I have seen guys fight through OC, stun guns, batons, .45 ACP rounds to the chest, etc., I don't expect anyone I fight to stop from one strike with a tacticool pen. "Strike to stop," just like "shoot to stop" should be the mantra. Also, the tactical pens are much more sturdy than most pens, but can still break, just as other high quality devices (including firearms) sometimes fail.

I went to YouTube and reviewed the videos on pen use which you were promoting in your posts. I have a couple of observations. First, there was an awful lot of powerful hammerfists with a pen to the side of the neck in the "Part 3" video. This area is a "red area" on LEO baton striking charts for a reason--a hard strike here can induce serious injury or death. With an unarmed opponent, such as that shown in the video, a hard strike to the neck with the pens shown, impacting on the area of the carotid artery as shown in the video, could be very injurious or fatal. Jumping to potentially lethal force in response to what appeared to be a simple empty hand attack is going to be problematic. In another video, I saw a man dressed in a suit drop a Blackberry to draw a pen and use it as a self-defense tool
In another video, I saw a man dressed in a suit drop a Blackberry to draw a pen and use it as a self-defense tool. Under the real stress of fighting during my law enforcement career, as well as during the various martial arts and law enforcement officer survival cources I have instructed where we have done hard core sparring/testing of such procedures, I have found that the vast majority of people are better off using what is already in their hand or using empty hands to respond to the first, unexpected, close range attack. A device can be drawn later. As training goes up, the ability to select and deploy a tool while fighting goes up, and the man in the video is probably trained enough to easiliy accomplish this. Many are not. I, personally, would have struck the opponent with the Blackberry and my empty hand, locked the elbow with the Blackberry and done a takedown. This may have broken the Blackberry--and since mine is government issue and I am tired of getting those 3AM emails or phone calls directing me to report back to work for some emergency or other, this would be a bonus:p.

As for the tape on Toad310s gear, it all comes down to articulation. Speaking as a LEO, if Toad gave the explanation that he has given on this forum, he would probably be OK in most situations. A pen or pencil is a pretty crappy weapon when you look at what LEOs face every single day, and a gainfully employed photographer giving a reasonable explanation in a calm and confident manner would get the benefit of the doubt in many situations.

Your assertion that you can't thrust a pen through a leather coat has intrigued me. I just might have to try. I can do a thrust through layered denim, using a couple of different kali techniques and a decent pen. I will say that a thick leather jacket, worn over a thick sweater, is a major challenge for cutting technique (or thrusting with a small knife). I just finished some responses to questions I was asked for an interview in an upcoming magazine article in regard to self-defense with a small blade, and winter clothing was covered. I see thrusting a pen through a leather coat as more "a stunt" than a realistic defense technique in any case. Going for more vulnerable targets, as indicated in your post, is the correct way to go, in my opinion.

I see that you discussed the use of a flashlight as a kubotan. I prefer them to pens in many cases. I have successfully accomplished locks and takedowns with the little Surefire Executive (single 123 cell light), so it can be done with the shorter as well as the longer lights. Of all the "improvised kubotans" I actually prefer a high quality, closed folding knife. The option to deploy the blade is there if necessary, and I have never damaged a folder in such use, unlike what can sometimes happen to pens, etc. This is not to say that a folder could not be broken in such a manner of use, it is just saying that I have yet to see it. Since I said that, I'll probably have to use an Emerson or a Spyderco as a compliance tool today and will probably break it:(.

Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting the links to your videos. It is nice to see a traditional martial arts school explore some options for the real world of the street. The training academy is a good place to practice, as the street can be a harsh teacher. The important thing to remember is that the academy is not the street, and that lessons learned in the "for real and for true" fighting on the street need to be incorporated into the academy. Have fun with your exploration of fighting tools and good luck with your training.

"This brings me to the dedicated "SD" pens. The statement that a "...a Rick Hinderer Heavy duty tactical pen, with the round pen cap on will never stick out the side of someone neck no matter how hard you try...It'll knock the fight out of them for sure though.."

Ok. Let me rephrase. A pen with a rounded cap is not a knife, so even with hard multiple stikes it would be more than difficult to stab it thr sombody's neck unless they have incredible amounts of strength. So while a one strike knock out is unlikely, the chance repeated and multiple strike knocking the fight out of someone is more likely.

"Your assertion that you can't thrust a pen through a leather coat has intrigued me. I just might have to try."

I am speaking on a om layered winter clothes like you are. it is pretty difficult, espec with a pencil or cheap .50 bic pen.

"In another video, I saw a man dressed in a suit drop a Blackberry to draw a pen and use it as a self-defense tool"

I agree 50%, he should have use his phone 1st. That is what we are taught by Sifu, but it was knocked out of his hand, so he drew is pen.

" Jumping to potentially lethal force in response to what appeared to be a simple empty hand attack is going to be problematic".

I agree. This defense was used a a response for those who fear great serious injury or death.

"As for the tape on Toad310s gear, it all comes down to articulation. Speaking as a LEO, if Toad gave the explanation that he has given on this forum, he would probably be OK in most situations"

I think that really depends on the cop and the individual situation.

Alot of ahole cops where I live, sorry

Thank for the well thought out reponse and welcoming me to the forum.

I am truly enjoying this thread.

[CUMAONE]

"I agree 50%, he should have use his phone 1st. That is what we are taught by Sifu, but it was knocked out of his hand, so he drew is pen."

Sorry, I meant I agree 500%, as you can prob see I typed in haste, was on a shorty break at work.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I think the real issue here is one of skilled vs unskilled. The skilled person who has trained for many years will probably be able to use not only a tactical pen but pretty much any type of improvised weapon or article as a tool for SD. I have viewed the videos mentioned in this thread and I must admit they a quite good, however the techniques are being apply by skill martial artists...and all these people will probably be able to apply the same shown skills empty hand without the pen. For the unskilled there exists the problem of thinking that a pen in the pocket will serve them well in a SD situation where their lives or serious injury to themselves might be at stake. The pen is not the answer...getting the training is the most important part. You can walk into any hardware store and find 100's of things that could be effectively use as a SD tool without screaming "Weapon". Is the pen a better way to go? I don't think so. For the unskilled it provides a false sense of security and a poor weapons choice...IMHO Pens were made for writing not fighting.....Doc:D

[CUMAONE]

I think the real issue here is one of skilled vs unskilled. The skilled person who has trained for many years will probably be able to use not only a tactical pen but pretty much any type of improvised weapon or article as a tool for SD. I have viewed the videos mentioned in this thread and I must admit they a quite good, however the techniques are being apply by skill martial artists...and all these people will probably be able to apply the same shown skills empty hand without the pen. For the unskilled there exists the problem of thinking that a pen in the pocket will serve them well in a SD situation where their lives or serious injury to themselves might be at stake. The pen is not the answer...getting the training is the most important part. You can walk into any hardware store and find 100's of things that could be effectively use as a SD tool without screaming "Weapon". Is the pen a better way to go? I don't think so. For the unskilled it provides a false sense of security and a poor weapons choice...IMHO Pens were made for writing not fighting.....Doc:D



Very true indeed. That's why it is important to take some kind of training.

Most of the people in the video except for the teacher and two guys in front were beginners, like white and yellow ranks, some 1st day people.

The video that we are filming Saturday will have a lot of 1st day people and beginners as well.

and a pen is better than nothing. So is a cell phone.

ACE HARDWARE is very tacticool :).

[fultoncoshooter]

i was given a benchmade stainless steel pen its one heavy SOB

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv4/cpat/100_0005.jpg

[stonyman]

I think Doc hit it well in the last post. Skilled vs unskilled is the key. The skill set of the instructor in the vid is obvious. I have problems with folks purchasing these items without any foundation to fall back on. The objective is to stop the threat period! The weapons help carry out that objective if need be.

Tool fixation is a disaster waiting to happen. With that in mind, I am in need or due for a nice heavy-duty writing instrument.:rolleyes: With my handwriting, the best writing tool will not help me..........Thank God for the keyboard!:D Take care all and God Bless.

[CUMAONE]

Agreed.


We will be filming on a BOB dummy tonight to see what breaks and stabs through his rubbery skin and how deep. He will be wearing a karate Gi, which is about as thick as a shirt.

We will test with Bic Pens, sharpened #2 pencils, scissors, a knife, tactical pens and kubotons.

We are also folding leather over him to simulate a leather racket. Don't want to ruin my jacket:D

The final test of the evening will be comparing the penetration of the items items through a SIG type hard metal water bottle.

We will have both an adult male (aprox 200lbs ) and a 14 year old teenage boy who weighs 120 lbs try to show the difference in striking power.

Hopefully we can have the video up on YOUTUBE before the weekend.

[Don Ellis]

i was given a benchmade stainless steel pen its one heavy SOB

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv4/cpat/100_0005.jpg


It looks like they use the same top-quality box-maker as Spyderco. :D

[KaliGman]

Agreed.

...
We will have both an adult male (aprox 200lbs ) and a 14 year old teenage boy who weighs 120 lbs try to show the difference in striking power...



I have found, in actual fighting during my law enforcement career, sparring in various locations over the years, and using sharp, pointy implements in various situations, that skill and proper technique determines "striking power" far more than do size and weight. If the skill is roughly equal (or not there at all, when you are discussing the untrained), mass and muscle come into their own. Speed of the strike, would, of course, also need to be factored into the calculation.

[KaliGman]

Hey Cumaone,

Every one of your posts on the Spyderco forum is in this thread. How about adding a Spyderco knife to your upcoming tests? This is a knife forum for crying out loud:D. (Just messing with you)

Play with a big Manix, Military, or Kris, if you have one of them--and use them on your Body Opponent Bag (BOB) in the closed position as a striking implement. With care, they can be used in training with other students, for comealongs, joint locks, chokes, throws and other interesting activities. If you have never used a high quality folder in this manner, you are in for a treat.

I actually prefer a good closed folder to almost any other improvised kubotan:

http://www.albokalisilat.org/folding.html
http://www.albokalisilat.org/folding2.html
http://www.albokalisilat.org/folding3.html

I have, however, been known to demonstrate the uses of various other improvised weaponry (and use a bit of it for real, from time to time):

http://www.albokalisilat.org/improvised.html
http://www.albokalisilat.org/improvised2.html

I particularly enjoyed using a quarter as a weapon in the improvised weaponry video series, and I always enjoy cipecut (sarong/belt fighting)--though I used a jacket instead of a traditional sarong in the video.

Every now and again, I throw one of the older videos from my website up on YouTube, including the Lava video and the improvised weaponry series.

Have fun with your testing and training.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I have found, in actual fighting during my law enforcement career, sparring in various locations over the years, and using sharp, pointy implements in various situations, that skill and proper technique determines "striking power" far more than do size and weight. If the skill is roughly equal (or not there at all, when you are discussing the untrained), mass and muscle come into their own. Speed of the strike, would, of course, also need to be factored into the calculation.

KaliGman is 1000% correct with his statements....Doc:D

[CUMAONE]

I have found, in actual fighting during my law enforcement career, sparring in various locations over the years, and using sharp, pointy implements in various situations, that skill and proper technique determines "striking power" far more than do size and weight. If the skill is roughly equal (or not there at all, when you are discussing the untrained), mass and muscle come into their own. Speed of the strike, would, of course, also need to be factored into the calculation.

Understood and agreed.

Sifu's thoughts are pretty much the same.

With this test he wanted to show that while an pretty experienced 200lb guy drove a pen deep into BOB, a not so experienced lightweight teenager had a big challenge obtaining the same results.

My wife is smaller than the teen, so impact was more likely than puncturing for her.

If he just post guys in uniforms doing it, people will say "of course , these guys are trained martial artists".

If he uses all beginners, people will say" That's why training is more important that the weapon" etc...

Which is all true.

So he just wanted to test and compare results with both at the same time, natural attacks vs trained martial artists.

As far as knives go, he has a bag of like 50 in his office. Pretty nice stuff too.

Bob's neck and throat is sliced and he is all stabbed to bits, a big chunk of his face is gone. I am assuming Sifu did this.

I will take your suggestions to him next time in class.

BTW, we have a Kali/Escrima class every Wed night. Lots of fun and banged up fingers.

Thanks again.

[CUMAONE]

"Everyone of your posts on the Spyderco forum is in this thread. How about adding a Spyderco knife to your upcoming tests? This is a knife forum for crying out loud. (Just messing with you)"

I brought this up to Sifu tonite. He said There are alot of great knife and tactical magazines with steel experts who test knives every month.

He also said there are tons of knife fighting courses one can take in person, online, in books and videos etc..And alot of the same, some really practical, some not, stuff repackaged over and over again.

The practical tactical pen training he is promoting is for people who do not , can not or will carry a knife but want a little something they can use as a last ditch SD tool if need be. Most of those who can, will and do carry blades can used a closed folder for compliance and really dont need or want a tactical pen. some exceptions of course.

I only post to this thread because I found it on Google, thought is was cool and like Spyderco knives :)

I may be able to get my teacher to post here, he generally avoids forums because of aholes on other forums in the past. So far the people here seem pretty cool and more down to earth than on martial arts and self defense forums.

We'll see...

[stonyman]

It would be great to have your Sifu come on board. Actually he may find himself in the company of like minded people. There are some of us who really take our training seriously!:rolleyes::D If I have not officially welcomed you yet Welcome aboard. Take care of yourself and God Bless.

[Waysun Johnny Tsai]

Wow. I just found this old post, wonder if anyone is looking at it. If so, Hello! and thanks for the invite to the forum!

BTW, I love Spyderco knives!



All The Best-

Waysun Johnny Tsai
www.cumaram.com