Balisongs, Guntings, and lanyards

[Runs With Scissors]

So, what do they have in common?





I've got areas of ignorance and a few questions regarding all three...*L*



First off is that Balisongs seem to be a pretty hot item especially lately, between the BM's, MT Tachyon, the talk of a Spydie Balisong, etc. and they seem to be viewed by many as a very viable knife for MBC, including Mr. Janich who we ALL know aint no fool in this arena. Thing is that is seems user friendliness in opening and excellent gripping and retention are said to be very big factors when choosing a knife for personal protection, and I just don't see that in any way, shape, or form with a Balisong.

I'm aware that there's some very quick and basic openings for them that don't require ten step movements, but even those seem to require gripping a very narrow, small piece of smooth metal handle, precision timing, and basically a pretty hard manuever, especially when experiencing an adrenaline dump. I know that like everything in life, practice and experience helps, but it just seems like all things equal, in a dire situation a person would be better served by the simple smooth opening of a more conventional folder. So, what am I missing here? I realize there's probably a good reason for the use of Balisongs, I just haven't been around long enough to realize what it is. I've come to REALLY enjoy Balisongs, and have been getting tips from "Balisong Xtreme, and practicing quite frequently, and making lots of improvement, but I still can't imagine ever being comfortable relying a Balisong to protect my hide,especially when there's more conventional folders available.



Second question re: the Gunting is basically the same thing...how does it work? I read an article on them in "Tactical Knives" that made alot of mention of opening them against an attackers arms, wrists, etc. but it seems like there must be more to it than this. I know that for some people just attending a Bram Frank seminar would do a world of wonders, but I pretty much acknowledge, I don't have the money for that, as nice as it would be. So, is there a book, manual, or advice available to learn a few more of the basic concepts to the design? Once again OBVIOUSLY a great knife, and once again, I'm thinking about trying one, but suffering from a lack of data here.



Third question on lanyards is how do you feel about them on a MBC type knife? I've become pretty fond of them for quick access on knives designed for "tip-up" carry, and I became VERY fond of them when I was working excavation all summer and quickly learned that is REALLY sucks to drop your knife in a narrow manhole and plunge into a buncha slimy, stinky old sewer water to get it. (especially when you're a guy with alot of girth that doesn't move very well in enclosed areas anyways) But anyways, it seems very nice for general retention purposes, and it sometimes makes a knife much easier to access, but on the other hand it can also make a knife a little clumsier feeling in general, especially when changing grips. So, what are your ideas on this?



Thanks in advance for your perceptions and advice!



Mike

[BRAM]

Gee Mike, the Gunting has several ways to learn: there's books coming out..and instruction manuals, there are wall-charts 11x17 each with 12 pictures @ chart( step by Step how to's), videos and of course the seminar route!!
1-800-340-9664

A Gunting is a Balisong of the millennium.
AS for can't afford a seminar..maybe you and some others want to sponsor a seminar up in Alaska..
I used to go up there and teach..nice place..BIG MOOSES!

You are correct on the balisong..Theres openings, twirling , and then usage..Usage asks that it open either wholely or partially to be able to cut.
For example, one could just grab the unsafe handle open it as you cut and lean into the bad guy..the force of the bad guy is what actually holds the knife open...that's right..the Balisong is not locked open.
I'm sure Mike or one of the others can show or tell you cool stuff on the Balisong..Mikes really good..OK great with one,,
Scott Brennan and Mike Janich both have great Balisong tapes..yes you can learn from them..and they include the normal openings aswell as usage openings,,simple direct open to cut or defensive actions..


be safe
bram

[Steve Drayton]

Hiya Bram. How can I order the wall charts, intruction manuals and all the new stuff u have coming out
Steve

[Michael Janich]

Dear Runs with Scissors:

I'm getting ready to head to Ohio for the first off-site MBC course, but I won't shirk my duties. Here's a concise response to your though-provoking questions.

First of all, when evaluating a knife, it's always wise to look at grip, texture, and all the other things that will help keep your hand safe when you use it. However, a truly good grip is ultimately a matter of technique rather than sophisticated design. I have no problem gripping a good balisong that does not possess a guard on the tang and thrusting full force into something. The reason is that I have confidence in my grip.

Ideally, you want a good handle design AND a good grip, but the world is an imperfect place. In general, though, the handles of a good quality balisong can offer a combat-worthy grip.

As for openings, compared to a thumb stud, disk,or even Spyderco hole, the size of a balisong handle is pretty generous. As such, indexing on one handle and doing a simple flip with the other is, in my opinion, not any more difficult that a typical thumb opening. The grip you have on the safe handle is actually very similar to the way you'd grip a conventional tactical folder.

The Gunting is a highly evolved design with very special qualities. These qualities give you more options in a defensive situation, and also require that you train more diligently to be able to take advantage of them. Check out one or more of Bram's videos to better understand how the Gunting is applied. They will give you a much better idea of the knife's capabilities and whether it will suit your personal needs.

As for lanyards, I'm not a big fan of them because they get in my way when I try to manipulate a knife. The one exception, however, is a sleeve carry. In this carry, which works well when you're forced to walk through areas where bad guys might suddenly appear, you put your wrist through the lanyard and adjust it (big wooden beads or the spring-loaded cord keepers on jackets work great for this) so the knife dangles at just the right height in your palm. This keeps your fingers open and natural looking, yet positions the knife where it can be quickly grasped and opened. This also works as you described - as a safety net when using the knife in areas where dropping it could be very unpleasant.

I hope this helps. I'm off to Ohio!!!

Stay safe,

mike j

[Runs With Scissors]

thanks for both responses! definitely managed to shed a little light on the topic/s for me.

As for the balisong, I'm thinking I would be best served as an individual to keep them in the "toy" department another year or two and not in a full time carry or protective role. I don't know what the exact issue may be, but I've been working with my Balisongs consistently for a couple months, and just don't feel confident re: openings and retention. they're way too well designed and fun for me to not have at least one (especially if I can get a Spyderco someday!) but I'll probably just use it to knock around the house.

Still investigating the Gunting quite a bit, and pondering whether or not I want to pick one up. to be very candid here, I'm debating whether I'd rather carry a Gunting or an Emerson Commander both VERY well designed knives, built for the same role, but with a very different method intended it seems. Guess that's gonna lead me to a bit of a soul search to figure out what's right for "me"

thanks for the thought on the lanyard! got my gears to spinnin' and it wasn't long until I'd also discovered a knife designed for tip down carry could be quite easily clipped to my rather long and loose coat sleeve for quick access.

Anyhoo, I do very much appreciate the time and the info provided!

[Dijos]

Ok, Bali Question. in a panic situation, could anyone really use a balisong effectively as a knife(vs. using it as an impact weapon). Mas Ayoob wrote about gross motor skills and our inability to use complex motor skills in a bad situation. Shooting has taught me this, drawing and shooting from concealment, and hitting a target is really hard, even after tons of practice. and these are just speed drills, where your partner will call out a target, like "number 1", at which point you draw and shoot. and noone is hitting me, or shooting back. I know this is a ramble, but I' trying to illustrate this point. also, aren't balisongs illegal to carry in 49 states? love the Gunting! just my 2 cents

[Dijos]

ok, can I effectively use my computer w/o double posting in a panic situation..

Edited by - dijos on 2/20/2002 12:16:26 AM

[Michael Janich]

Dear Dijos:

Good question. Kudos to you for training realistically and using that experience to help determine your confidence in your own skills. That process is EXACTLY what you need to follow to answer your question.

If a person does not train well enough to use their skills under stress, I don't care what weapon they're carrying, they probably will never get it out and into action in time. That goes for balisongs, Guntings, fixed blades, standard folding knives, and anything else you might be packing.

I have drawn and opened balisongs very quickly under stress (stress being defined as about a half a dozen surly Vietnamese citizens taking exception to an American citizen eating in "their" restaurant). Fortunately, it had the desired effect and the situation ended there. However, had I not invested the time and effort to practice, it could have just as easily gone the other way.

I know this isn't much of an answer, the the reality is, you're the only one who can definitively answer that question for your needs.

Stay safe,

mike j

[Runs With Scissors]

Regarding the legality of a balisong, yes they are by letter of law illegal here in Alaska. Where things become tricky is that by letter of law a knife as relatively harmless and sheeple friendly as a Spyderco Rescue Jr. is also illegal due to the fact that it can be opened by centrifugal force, or gravity (by holding the lockback down) so it's a largely arbitrary thing that is very much left to the officers discretion.

Speaking from a more pragmatic perspective, I've used and carried quite a few auto's in plain view of police officers quite frequently and never had them even raise an eyebrow. (working as an EMT and as a Security Officer at the local native hospital has quite naturally exposed me to alot of LEO presence)

So, for me it basically comes down to common sense and discretion.

A "bali flipping" performance in front of a cardiac patient would be VERY BAD FORM...*L*

flipping a Balisong while bored out of your mind in an otherwise empty office is mildly entertaining, and often times seems to relieve stress.

Basically as long as you aren't already doing something that would peg you as a hoodlum, you can get away with alot. If a person is going to give the cops a reason to suspect that they're trouble makers, they best settle for carrying a Swiss Tinker.

I also fully believe in Mr. Janichs' remarks that "You're the only one that can answer that question for your needs"

If we weren't all different people with different needs and different tastes there wouldn't be so many thousands of knives available on the market.

As for me I'm retiring the Balisong concept for now and looking for "something else" Other than my not having the speed and grace that I do with other knives, I don't know that they get along very well with the tendonitis in my wrists. although I will continue to use and enjoy them in my home. I'm also thinking REALLY long and hard about ordering one of Mr. Janichs Balisong videos I've been hearing about and seeing what it is that I may be missing. (so far all my openings and closings have come from the "Balisong Xtreme" site)

Speaking of tendonitis...I better sign off here...

hope y'all have a good one!