Literate Self-Defense

[Don Ellis]

Whenever I hear someone saying they carry a knife for self-defense, I always think it sounds better in theory than in practice.

One of my beliefs is that you’re most likely to be the victim of the thing you can least likely imagine. If you can’t imagine yourself being mugged, for instance, you’re most likely going to be the loser when it happens – because you haven’t thought through your possible responses and outcomes.

In the scenarios I’ve imagined where I’m suddenly attacked, a knife is probably the last thing I’ll be reaching for – even assuming I have the time and opportunity to deploy it.

Here’s the knife scenario: There’s a quart of blood on the ground. Bystanders are pointing at YOU. Your “victim” is on a gurney, wearing an oxygen mask and paramedics are trying to save his life. The police have your knife in a Zip-Lock bag and the press photographer is getting a close-up. And you’re starting to think about Legal Aid and losing everything you own.

But I do like weapons, so I’ll suggest one – a Mont Blanc Starwalker Rollerball…

http://www.kleptography.com/dl/spyderco/stretch_montblanc.jpg

Yes, I know that so many people have Mont Blancs that they can look like a me-too affectation, but they’re good pens and have three things going for them as weapons: They pull easily out of the shirt pocket and don’t require flicking open. They’re heavyweight and durable and, used as a yawara, they save you the pain of knuckle on bone. And they have more impact power than a knife.

Remember cutting yourself with a sharp knife and having three painless seconds to think about how much that’s going to hurt? Well, the person you just cut is going to put those three seconds to work on you. But drive a Mont Blanc into someone just about anywhere and the shock and pain are instant. Your attacker’s attention is suddenly focused on himself… giving you a few seconds to run away or continue on or look around for a bigger pen.

Here’s the Mont Blanc scenario: No gushing blood, no gaping wounds, no fainting bystanders. Just a scholarly fellow with good taste in writing instruments who is innocent (“Lucky you had it with you, Sir. We’ll be dragging this miscreant away now”).

And in a courtroom? There probably won’t be one – because you didn’t have a weapon, you had a pen.

Bonus question: In mid-fight you drop your knife or your pen. Which one is going to get picked up and used on you? (Sorry, no points for such an easy question.) Plus, you look pretty normal walking across a parking lot late at night with a pen in your hand, instead of an open knife.

In many situations, you’ll find the pen really is mightier than the penknife. And you sound cooler than announcing you carry a knife for self-defense. :cool:

Don


Mont Blanc – Black Rubber and Platinum, Rollerball (http://www.montblanc.com/products/black_rubber_platinum_metal_rubber.08857.php)

Yawara (http://www.donrearic.com/yawara.html)

[The Mastiff]

Having had the experience of being stabbed by both a pen, and a knife I'd say there is no comparison.

A pen may be one step above hurling harsh language at someone, or hitting someone with asn ashtray or rock, but not much above that.

I guess if you're in a courtroom and can't carry anything else a pen might have to do, but if you are in the position where you can use a real weapon, and all you have is a pen, then I feel for ya.

Pens aren't s#!t for weapons.

In case you are wondering, the one that was stuck in me was a parker. The guy went for my eye, and I caught it in my palm, where it embedded. It really didn't cause a whole lot of damage, and I could still use my hand.

A bladed weapon would have done more damage, and given the attacker more options.

As far as getting in trouble, if you are wrong, you are wrong. If you are not, you're not. The difference between a pen and a knife is negligible and it won't save you if you were wrong from prosecution, or civil liability.

etc. Joe

[Don Ellis]

...if you are in the position where you can use a real weapon, and all you have is a pen, then I feel for ya.

The photo should suggest that I carry more than a pen.

It is possible that the seconds that you're going to spend fumbling around trying to get your real weapon out and open might be better used for immediate defense... most likely with your hands and feet and not with a pen at all.

If my conversation has any intent, it's the value of imagining scenarios before they happen.

Another belief of mine is that you'll never have a "real weapon" when you need one most. So you should be open to alternatives.


Pens aren't s#!t for weapons.

That depends on who's wielding it.

Don

[Dr. Snubnose]

Having had the experience of being stabbed by both a pen, and a knife I'd say there is no comparison.

A pen may be one step above hurling harsh language at someone, or hitting someone with asn ashtray or rock, but not much above that.

I guess if you're in a courtroom and can't carry anything else a pen might have to do, but if you are in the position where you can use a real weapon, and all you have is a pen, then I feel for ya.

Pens aren't s#!t for weapons.

In case you are wondering, the one that was stuck in me was a parker. The guy went for my eye, and I caught it in my palm, where it embedded. It really didn't cause a whole lot of damage, and I could still use my hand.

A bladed weapon would have done more damage, and given the attacker more options.

As far as getting in trouble, if you are wrong, you are wrong. If you are not, you're not. The difference between a pen and a knife is negligible and it won't save you if you were wrong from prosecution, or civil liability.

etc. Joe

Before I use a pen for SD, I'd choose about a dozen other common everyday items, ie Boots, Shoes, Belt, Book, Magazine, Attache Case, Tote Bag, Car antenna, Water bottle, Credit card and the list goes on.....Thinking serious about using a pen for SD, means your not thinking seriously about SD at all...Don't mean to sound disrespectful, I'm not saying you can't use one...but I think the pen should be used by only people highly skilled in defensive practices...and those people wouldn't need to use a pen for SD anyway...try fending off multiple violent attackers with your trusty pen from those whose sole intent is to kill you....someone will need that pen...to write your epitaph....Doc:D

[.Chris.]

A knife scenario doesn't necessarily need to end up with blood...

I've mentioned before that it is a great deterrant. Keep your wits about you and be aware of potential threats. If somebody gets in your face, create some space and make that blade visible. No matter who it is...if the attacker is even remotely sane, he'll think twice about attacking. He backs off, you find a safe place and call the cops. No blood and no training required.

HOWEVER... though a pen CAN cause a lot of pain, you'd better be well learned in hand to hand combat. You better know where to hit, how to hit, etc. Pulling a pen out won't scare your everyday scumbag so you better be ready to get rough.

These self defense threads don't last too long... but I wanted to give my 2 cents.

EDIT: For those that think you need to paranoid to think of this stuff all the time... it's not paranoia... it's called being prepared. Like the guy a few posts up said... If you don't think it'll happen to you it just might and you definitely will not be ready for it so prepare to get your ass handed to ya.

[Don Ellis]

Remind me not to get into these discussions again. :D


Don't mean to sound disrespectful, I'm not saying you can't use one...but I think the pen should be used by only people highly skilled in defensive practices...

I guess I assumed that using “yawara” would suggest a degree of fluency with self-defense techniques… but I’m seeing where assuming gets me.

Frankly, an unskilled knife-wielder who doesn’t have the mental toughness to stab someone would be just as well off with a pen. At least when someone took it off him, they wouldn’t have an edged weapon.


Thinking serious about using a pen for SD, means your not thinking seriously about SD at all...

Given all the pen-alternatives you mentioned, such as a water bottle, that’s not true at all, is it? Only people thinking seriously about SD think about such alternatives.


and those people wouldn't need to use a pen for SD anyway...

Since you’re trained, then you wouldn’t need to use “Boots, Shoes, Belt, Book, Magazine, Attache Case, Tote Bag, Car antenna, Water bottle, Credit card and the list goes on” would you? So why mention them. Let’s have a little mental rigor here.


…try fending off multiple violent attackers with your trusty pen from those whose sole intent is to kill you....someone will need that pen...to write your epitaph....Doc

You’re right… for that many, I’d need a credit card. ;)

Don

[Don Ellis]

A knife scenario doesn't necessarily need to end up with blood...

I've mentioned before that it is a great deterrant. Keep your wits about you and be aware of potential threats. If somebody gets in your face, create some space and make that blade visible. No matter who it is...if the attacker is even remotely sane, he'll think twice about attacking. He backs off, you find a safe place and call the cops. No blood and no training required.

HOWEVER... though a pen CAN cause a lot of pain, you'd better be well learned in hand to hand combat. You better know where to hit, how to hit, etc. Pulling a pen out won't scare your everyday scumbag so you better be ready to get rough.

These self defense threads don't last too long... but I wanted to give my 2 cents.

EDIT: For those that think you need to paranoid to think of this stuff all the time... it's not paranoia... it's called being prepared. Like the guy a few posts up said... If you don't think it'll happen to you it just might and you definitely will not be ready for it so prepare to get your ass handed to ya.

I agree with it all... if you've got the time and distance, pull out the blade, smile like you're hungry and look like you're ready to carve the turkey.

Every once in a while I think about buying a Civilian just for deterrent looks alone.

And, yes, you certainly need training to use a pen effectively... just as you need training to use a knife as a defensive weapon.

Don

[Billy]

To imply that someone use a pen instead of a knife in a SD situation is utterly ludicrous. If you are in a SD situation and the attacker has no weapon, run away, screaming like a little girl. If you get jumped by an unarmed thug, use whatever you have handy to fend off the (most likely) non-lethal encounter. Plus if you get jumped, you most likely were in a situation you should not have been and/or had very little situational awareness. If you are serious about SD, get some training in whatever you are comfortable with, be it empty hand, blade, firearm, etc. If you are serious about SD but cannot or will not get training, get some sort of quality pepper spray. Something (yes, even a pen) is better than nothing.

If you're faced with an attack from someone armed and bent on doing you great harm, you'd better be able to meet force with even greater force and more importantly, greater will/intent to SURVIVE or you WILL be the victim and BEING A VICTIM IS A CHOICE, IMO.

I chose many, many years ago to not be a victim and I took the steps to make sure I can protect myself and the ones I love to the best of my abilities. For me, that's at least one firearm, on my body that has the ability to throw a chunk of lead approx. .45" in diameter at the bad guy, several bladed tools, fast hands and fast feet and the diligence to ALWAYS be aware of my surroundings and stay out of likely trouble spots.

Rant mode off.

[vampyrewolf]

If I'm expecting trouble, I've usually got my 21" baton on me those times. But I've also gone into those areas looking for trouble (as I've probably seen it repeatedly in the area).

Day to day I've got a few tools on me, but I don't carry them expecting trouble.

If I'm going to be in close confines, I've usually got 3-4 pens on me. 2 on the upper left pockets of my vest, 1 on upper right pocket of my vest, and a good one either inside my shirt collar or shirt pocket. If I'm not wearing my vest I've usually got 2 pens clipped to my back pockets

Pain compliance goes a long way, even when the other guy is drunk... but you have to know where to hit. A 1/4" diameter pen being shoved in large muscle groups and tendons moves ppl quickly.

[Hannibal Lecter]

My Dear Friends,

I have a few personal thoughts to contribute here, if I might.

It isn't that a pen is utterly useless as a defensive weapon; it is just rather that the level of training and proficiency necessary to use it effectively is substantially higher with such a weapon than with a knife or handgun, especially against someone intent on killing you.

I would use a Yawara or similar force multiplier as a last resort, and likely only then to buy time to deploy a more effective tool such as a knife or firearm. The old adage "you use your handgun to survive and fight your way back to your shotgun/rifle" applies here.

No disrespect intended towards anyone contributing - in fact, I enjoy reading the differing points of view in a thread such as this one so long as everyone remains civil. :D It facilitates critical thinking and causes me to consider (and sometimes reconsider) what I think that I know.

--------
Hannibal

[WhiteWillie]

In this day and age, I certainly hope I never have to rely on a knife for self defense. The bad guys are carrying guns.

I realize we can't foresee, or control completely, the situations in which we find ourselves but, I really believe one of the best defenses is to stay out of areas where we are likely to be attacked.

The only violence I've experienced in my life was racially motivated, so my simple thinking is that, if your a white guy, don't go to a bar on Martin Luther King Blvd. and if your a black guy, don't buy your Italian lemonade in Little Italy.

[RazorSharp86]

When I was only 7 years old, I was attacked by a man older than me, and I stabbed him in the ear, with a Parker pen. Worked beautifully. Anything can be used as a weapon, as long as the person using it can weild it properly, not necessarily due training, but some people just have balls, imagination, or just the will to survive the fittest. :D
After years of training I now know Krav Maga.I've also got black belt in Jiu-Jitsu and Kiyokushinkay. Yes, a skilled person can use rediculous things as a water bottle, and antennas as weapons, but I think in those cases, the trained mind and body, are the ONLY weapons one truly needs to avoid, or get out of a life threatening situation.

[KP]

In this day and age, I certainly hope I never have to rely on a knife for self defense. The bad guys are carrying guns.

I realize we can't foresee, or control completely, the situations in which we find ourselves but, I really believe one of the best defenses is to stay out of areas where we are likely to be attacked.


Those bad guys sure do carry guns.

And here is one more proof... that junk food is not only unhealthy, but can be dangerous! "1 dead, one injured in Miami Burger King shooting" (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/965735.html)

So, while I absolutely agree one has to know the surroundings and stay away from trouble spots, sometimes those are not so obvious.

[KaliGman]

There are some interesting twists and turns in this thread.

First of all, knives (and big knives i.e. "swords") have been used as weaponry over the course of a few millennia. The reason that blades have been used and continue to be used as weaponry is that they are very effective in that capacity. A pen or other expedient weapon can assist in self-defense. A pen is not the equal of a good blade. A good folder, or the punyo (butt) of a fixed blade, can be used as an impact tool and do all of the things that a pen (an improvised yawara or kubotan) can due as far as locking, impact weapon use, and the like. Open the folder or merely use the sharp, pointy end of the fixed blade, and the knife can do everything that a pen can do as far as puncture/stabbing, except more so and better. In addition, the blade cuts, and the pen does not. Cutting tendons, muscles, and nerves can stop the ability of an attacker to move an attacking limb and do this far more quickly than the attacker will expire from exsanguination caused by stabbing him a couple of times in the abdomen with a pen.

A belief that you will "never have a real weapon when you need one" is a little myopic. You may believe what you wish, and validate that belief to yourself by not carrying weapons and getting into situations where you probably wish you had a weapon. Others of us just carry the weaponry all the time and find that, when we needed it, it was there. I am a federal LEO and, aside from when I have had to work in foreign nations, am pretty well armed just about all the time. Some people on the forum *cough* Doc *cough* carry so much stuff on their person that the average Sherpa would hang his head in shame and say "NAH--I couldn't carry that around all day."

Doc Snubnose said that in general you need to be very good with your natural weapons to make improvised weaponry work correctly. He is correct, and both he and I have stated this opinion more than once on this forum in the past. Expedient weapons can allow you to strike or lock in a way that you could do without a weapon, but perhaps with a bit more force or with less chance to injure yourself (jam a finger, bruise a knuckle, etc.). Sure a book, shoe, magazine, jacket, belt, pen, (I even used a U.S. Quarter Dollar in an improvised weaponry video once), or some such can help. Without skills in footwork, empty hand striking, and locking/trapping, the weaponry is probably not going to help all that much in a real knock-down-drag-out street confrontation.

Gun does not always beat knife, not in close "knife range." In fact, in law enforcement training classes I have taught, gun seldom beats knife at close ranges when doing force on force training.

Counting on the mere display of a weapon to do anything is a losing proposition. The bad guy may decide to run or not attack you. Then again, the bad guy may not. If it is a bad enough situation that you have an open blade in your hand, it is not the time to give up the initiative and wait to see what Mr. Badguy plans to do to you. You should be counterattacking Mr. Badguy, not hoping he goes to a more willing victim. As a LEO, I have scraped up the remains of a couple of people who attempted to "scare their way" out of a fight.

As for not having time to draw the weapon---well, I can usually draw a Spyderco in my pants pocket quicker than I can a pen in my shirt pocket. Of course, usually I would be using the MP-5 sub gun I had secured by its tactical sling (if we were doing an arrest or I was expecting some trouble) or drawing a Sig or Glock if I was wearing my business suit and it was "business as usual." No matter what you attempt to access when you are "behind the power curve" and dealing with an unexpected attack, if you are in close proximity to your attacker, empty hand skills should be applied first. Based on lots of training and teaching, these are the five options that I have come up with in regard to using a folding knife while being attacked:

1. Deal with the situation empty handed, ignoring the fact that you have a knife.
2. Disengage and gain distance while deploying the knife.
3. While dealing with the situation empty handed, access the knife, and use the knife, closed, as an impact tool until such time as you get a chance to deploy the blade.
4. While dealing with the situation empty handed, access the knife, deploying the blade at once (during the process of accessing so the draw and opening are one move).
5. Do not deal with the attack successfully and/or die.

I have my students practice all of the techniques listed, except for number 5, as situations differ and one or more of these strategies may be more appropriate to the particular attack that is faced. What most people seem to envision happening in their “mental movie” of what they would do in this situation is number 4. Number 4 is the least likely outcome when hard sparring/pressure is being put on a student. It can and has happened, but usually only works for those who are very good at sparring, who spar with folding trainers frequently, who practice drawing and opening folders under stress, and who are pretty coolheaded under pressure.

I posted "the five situations" above in the Albo Kali Silat subforum over on FMATalk and have since discussed them with various other instructors and observed and participated in various sparring sessions. They seem to hold true.

[.Chris.]

That was a good read.

It is very true though, if the attacker is in close range and he makes the first move you gotta be ready to use your hands. I saw this law enforcement training video where even at 20 feet, an officer is not able to draw their gun and shoot the attacker down without getting stabbed.

I do realize that just showing the knife doesn't guarantee anything, but there is a chance that it could result in a favorable outcome. If you don't know how to use it, or you're scared to use it and the attacker persists, you're gunna be screwed anyways. At least just putting it out there will give the everyday, normal person with no training a chance.

[Don Ellis]

That was a good read.

Yes, it was.

Whenever self-defense is mentioned, you see a lot of flexing – “Before I’m reaching for my Bic, I’m grabbing my LAAW, or my M-60, or my rodeo belt buckle” – so I was happy to see another civil conversation on a sensitive subject.

One of the problems of online discussion is that we don’t know each other personally and we’re all working from different lexicons and experience.

When I think self-defense, I think training, which I figure you’ll have invested in if you’re serious about self-defense. Since I didn’t say that, some people will imagine I’m talking about Joe Average pen user. I should have clarified.


It is very true though, if the attacker is in close range and he makes the first move you gotta be ready to use your hands. I saw this law enforcement training video where even at 20 feet, an officer is not able to draw their gun and shoot the attacker down without getting stabbed.

My point was that you shouldn't discount using a pen that may be more readily accessible than a knife. Perhaps someone else can pull their Spyderco out of their pocket and get it open faster than pulling out a pen, but I’m not one of them.


I do realize that just showing the knife doesn't guarantee anything, but there is a chance that it could result in a favorable outcome. If you don't know how to use it, or you're scared to use it and the attacker persists, you're gunna be screwed anyways. At least just putting it out there will give the everyday, normal person with no training a chance.

I agree. Looking at the Spyderco Civilian, I think that at least part of the design is for intimidation – anyone seeing that blade is going to have second thoughts. You show it and hope he runs off. If he doesn’t, maybe you run off. And if no one runs off, then you use it as best you can – as a slashing rather than a stabbing weapon, it is designed for the untrained.

Don

[Don Ellis]

There are some interesting twists and turns in this thread.

Yes, indeed.


A pen is not the equal of a good blade.

Ok, I think we can all agree on that.


Cutting tendons, muscles, and nerves can stop the ability of an attacker to move an attacking limb and do this far more quickly than the attacker will expire from exsanguination caused by stabbing him a couple of times in the abdomen with a pen.

Now why do you get to cut vital nerves and tendons while I only get to poke someone in the abdomen (twice) and wait patiently for him to bleed to death? Can’t I drive my pen into his ear like the 7-year-old RazorSharp86?


A belief that you will "never have a real weapon when you need one" is a little myopic.

Actually, it’s quite far-sighted. If you believe that you won’t have a real weapon when you need one, then you’ll spend some time making yourself a weapon – or imagining the “unreal” weapons that are all around you.


You may believe what you wish, and validate that belief to yourself by not carrying weapons and getting into situations where you probably wish you had a weapon. Others of us just carry the weaponry all the time and find that, when we needed it, it was there.

I believe that everyone believes what they want to believe – just as you seem to believe that I validate my belief about not having a weapon when I need one by walking around without a knife. Do you believe I keep those knives in my photo in the kitchen drawer? I hope so… underestimation is more useful than a pen.


Counting on the mere display of a weapon to do anything is a losing proposition. The bad guy may decide to run or not attack you.

Sounds like a winning proposition already. And one the Civilian was designed for.


As for not having time to draw the weapon---well, I can usually draw a Spyderco in my pants pocket quicker than I can a pen in my shirt pocket.

Especially true if you walk around with your hands in your pockets. :)


3. While dealing with the situation empty handed, access the knife, and use the knife, closed, as an impact tool…

OMG, this sounds like a pen. And it’s #3 on the Hit Parade. :D

Seriously, thanks for your message. I may fault you slightly for putting words in my mouth and for a self-serving example, but overall I found your post valuable. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Don

[Don Ellis]

I enjoy reading the differing points of view in a thread such as this one so long as everyone remains civil. :D It facilitates critical thinking and causes me to consider (and sometimes reconsider) what I think that I know.

Very true... and I'll repeat what I've said before: this is the politest forum I've ever been in. And the vast range of knowledge is also appreciated.

Don

[Don Ellis]

When I was only 7 years old, I was attacked by a man older than me, and I stabbed him in the ear, with a Parker pen. Worked beautifully. Anything can be used as a weapon, as long as the person using it can weild it properly, not necessarily due training, but some people just have balls, imagination, or just the will to survive the fittest. :D

Well put... and congratulations.


After years of training I now know Krav Maga.I've also got black belt in Jiu-Jitsu and Kiyokushinkay. Yes, a skilled person can use rediculous things as a water bottle, and antennas as weapons, but I think in those cases, the trained mind and body, are the ONLY weapons one truly needs to avoid, or get out of a life threatening situation.

I earned my "Master of Displacement" degree in self-defense 23 years ago by moving to one of the safest cities on the planet. :cool:

But even in the States, where "situational awareness" is a way of life, I think that the perceived level of violence is many times higher than actual violence.

Of course it only takes once, but it helps if whatever training you engage in enhances your life beyond just the defensive. (I'm just talking in general here, not commenting on your own training.)

Thanks for your thoughts in this discussion.

Don

[Don Ellis]

If I'm expecting trouble, I've usually got my 21" baton on me those times. But I've also gone into those areas looking for trouble (as I've probably seen it repeatedly in the area).

Day to day I've got a few tools on me, but I don't carry them expecting trouble.

If I'm going to be in close confines, I've usually got 3-4 pens on me. 2 on the upper left pockets of my vest, 1 on upper right pocket of my vest, and a good one either inside my shirt collar or shirt pocket. If I'm not wearing my vest I've usually got 2 pens clipped to my back pockets

Pain compliance goes a long way, even when the other guy is drunk... but you have to know where to hit. A 1/4" diameter pen being shoved in large muscle groups and tendons moves ppl quickly.

Thanks very much for sharing your approach. I'm starting to feel underpenned... maybe it's time to hit the stationer's. :D

Don

[Dr. Snubnose]

Oh this thread has really enlightened me....I'm turning in all my gear for pens.....Lets see I'll get two front pocket protectors loaded with pens then I'll be good and armed....I suggest Bics as they can also double as spit ball shooters for that long distance shot.....The Monte blancs....well those are two nice to stab anybody with so those will be safe queens, and don't use Cross pens as the judge and jury just might think you were Mad at the time you had to stab someone for SD....and don't forget if you want that non-lethal approach just get a collection of Soft Tip Hi-Liters, this way you can protect yourself and not hurt the violent attacker....That ought to teach em something...ever try and get that day glow color out of your ear canal?........Doc:p

PS....Hmmm guess we are friends now that I agree with you.....

[Don Ellis]

PS....Hmmm guess we are friends now that I agree with you.....

We were never not friends… although I suppose we could deepen that friendship if we duked out to a draw with… well, I choose Soft-Tip Hi-Liters, but I get red.

You of all people know the value of alternative weapons… which was the gist of the original message. In any case, you never worried me… the people we have the least to fear from are the trained ones… the sleeping dogs. :)

Cheers,
Don

[vampyrewolf]

Thanks very much for sharing your approach. I'm starting to feel underpenned... maybe it's time to hit the stationer's. :D

Don

It's no worse than having 2 lighters, 2 flashlights, 2 multitools, and 2 fixed blades when I have my vest on. I have my vest well stocked to pair with what I have. Redundancy is your friend. Having 2 lighters means that 1 always works. Having 4 pens means that at least 1 works (and that it hasn't been lent out).

I should get a pic of my EDC gear including what I have in my vest. We're not even going to try spreading out the contents of my backpack :eek:

The thing to realize is that most of us have probably come out fairly even on odds of winning and losing over the years. Is it luck or skill in a lot of cases? I've been in far too many fights over the years, and my run-fu is well practiced as well (spent 6 years in track, can still cover 4-5 blocks in a hurry). Your conviction to do harm is what gets you through a fight, irregardless of what gear you have/had.


Another point to ponder: When considering a knife for combat, if you aren't as intimately familiar with it as you are with certain parts of your anatomy, don't. Training, muscle memory and instinct don't allow for abstract thought.

That same theory flows to impact tools as well. If you want a good feel for making contact, swing a baton at a tireswing at full speed. It will move, and the baton will bounce back.

If you want to see what it's like, find a sparring partner and a couple thick sharpies. Take your shirts off and go at it full speed and full contact. All those marks on your body would be cuts and stabs... at least marker washes off ;)
Have done this a few times and you'd be surprised where you end up getting marked. Usually ends with someone getting sloppy and getting a line across their chest 4-5minutes in.

[vampyrewolf]

I have my fun training with my buddies. Full contact, full speed with bokens and rattan sticks. Nothing but jeans and gloves for protection, but rule #1 is nothing above the shoulders..
We use either hand, or both, matched and unmatched pairs.

Yes, we get hurt... legs and forearms mostly with a couple good rib shots and hand injuries over the years, but you get used to it. It's one of the best ways to practice real-world with those tools. But when we're done the loser buys the first round at the bar... so we have incentive not to call it quits after the first good hit.

[clovisc]

oh boy... another intense self-defense thread! :D

i guess when i think of using a knife for emergency self-defense, i'm not thinking of murdering people "gangs of new york" style... i'm thinking more about prying fingers off of me with a sharp edge, or causing enough non-lethal pain and/or fright to escape... and that after deterrance, "run-fu," and empty hand techniques have failed me.

...or.... i'm think of the advantages of having a factory-sharp emergency option in other, non-lethal situations (cutting myself loose from rope, cutting seatbelt material, combatting bloodthirsty zombie shark aliens while fishing, etc.).

pulling out a "weapon" -- be it knife or gun -- seriously ups the ante. and i don't like to gamble... especially with life. my life, or other people's.

[Billy]

Hey Don, after I was done ranting about choosing not to be a victim, yadda, yadda, I totally forgot to say...BEAUTIFUL PICTURE!:D:D

[KaliGman]

Especially true if you walk around with your hands in your pockets. :)

Don

Actually, I don't need to have my hands anywhere near my pockets. I have fast hands. A good kalista can do between 4 to 6 cuts in a second on a target. I can generally do quite a bit better than that. Of course, I have been practicing stuff like this for a few decades, so I guess I should be reasonably fast. Otherwise, I might as well have taken up crosswords or doodling--at least I could put a good pen to use that way:rolleyes:.

As for writing with pens, I far prefer Sensa to Mont Blanc--that plush, padded, "plasmium" grip just feels better when I have to write a lot (like when correcting someone's case report);). Mont Blancs are generally really good looking and well made, though. They just never worked as well for me as Sensa (of course, neither did Porsche Design, Waterman, et al).

Oh, just to set the record straight, you don't need anyone to put words in your mouth. You seem pretty well versed in "Forum Fu" and the ability to chop and paste comments to twist meanings. You also do a pretty good job of appearing completely divorced from the hard realities of real armed and unarmed combat without anyone misquoting you.

Good luck with your pen--you'll need all the luck you can get if you have to use it against even a semi-competent street thug.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Remind me not to get into these discussions again. :D

Consider yourself reminded

I guess I assumed that using “yawara” would suggest a degree of fluency with self-defense techniques… but I’m seeing where assuming gets me.

Frankly, an unskilled knife-wielder who doesn’t have the mental toughness to stab someone would be just as well off with a pen. At least when someone took it off him, they wouldn’t have an edged weapon.

I got news for you, an unskilled knife-wielder who doesn't have the mental toughness to stab someone, won't stab anyone with a pen either....

Given all the pen-alternatives you mentioned, such as a water bottle, that’s not true at all, is it? Only people thinking seriously about SD think about such alternatives.

There are many alternatives that one can use for SD, the pen would be at the bottom of my list...I just wanted to show you some more possibilities

Since you’re trained, then you wouldn’t need to use “Boots, Shoes, Belt, Book, Magazine, Attache Case, Tote Bag, Car antenna, Water bottle, Credit card and the list goes on” would you? So why mention them. Let’s have a little mental rigor here.

Since I am trained I really don't need any of those things,I could probably do you in with a bendy straw if I had to... so in this you are correct, but not everyone is so trained, and they just might need an alternative...I'm saying a pen would not be my suggestion......

You’re right… for that many, I’d need a credit card. ;)
I think you should get credit cards for each attacker, cause these guys are really gonna be mad when you get ink all over their clothing....of course they will want to be compensated......
Don
I think KaliGman is right when he says good luck cause you will need all the luck you can get while using your pen for SD...against even a semi-competent street thug....Doc:D

[Don Ellis]

As for writing with pens, I far prefer Sensa to Mont Blanc--that plush, padded, "plasmium" grip just feels better when I have to write a lot (like when correcting someone's case report) . Mont Blancs are generally really good looking and well made, though. They just never worked as well for me as Sensa (of course, neither did Porsche Design, Waterman, et al).

I’ve almost lost the art of handwriting since the advent of the keyboard. I would suggest that this Apple Aluminum Keyboard could be quite the chopper, but I think we’ve done enough with writing instruments as weapons here. (Just to set the record straight, my MacBook Pro is running Windows XP SP3 and I’m trained in DOS. :cool:)

My wife Leela is a fan of fountain pens and green ink, but her Parker, Dunhill and Caran d’Ache are all worthless – when they’re not leaking, they’re in the repair shop. When she bought me the Mont Blanc, she made sure to buy the rollerball. Lovely pen, but with its heft you wouldn’t want to write a novel with it.

Enjoyed the “case report.“ ;)


Oh, just to set the record straight, you don't need anyone to put words in your mouth. You seem pretty well versed in "Forum Fu" and the ability to chop and paste comments to twist meanings.

An expression I learned from Leela was “to be too clever by half” (to be too smart for your own good). I try not to be but sometimes fail.

Because I presented the pen as an essentially bloodless weapon, I was surprised to find myself cast in the role of someone who would stab someone in the stomach a couple of times and watch them exsanguinate. That was a little indulgent and doesn’t reflect the discipline I know you must bring to your art. Not an excuse, but something to consider when I ask you forgive my own indulgences.


You also do a pretty good job of appearing completely divorced from the hard realities of real armed and unarmed combat without anyone misquoting you.

Always possible. And since we learn more from people who disagree with us, I have read what you and Dr Snubnose have had to say more than once.

Thank you,
Don

[Don Ellis]

Consider yourself reminded

Thanks, I’ll take all the help I can get.


I think KaliGman is right when he says good luck cause you will need all the luck you can get while using your pen for SD...even against a semi-competent street thug....Doc

I don’t greet the world every morning in just loincloth and pen – and my luck has been very good – so I’m always hopeful.

Take care,
Don

P.S. You told me a lot about yourself a long time ago with your choice of sign-off line: “Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him.” I hope we haven’t ruptured anything in this thread.

[Don Ellis]

Hey Don, after I was done ranting about choosing not to be a victim, yadda, yadda, I totally forgot to say...BEAUTIFUL PICTURE!:D:D

Consider yourself a singular individual... thank you. :p

Don

[clovisc]

i have a feeling this post might have done better on a pen forum.

and... i wonder what would happen if someone started a "knife is mightier than the pen" argument on a pen forum...????? :D:rolleyes::p

[Dr. Snubnose]

Ay Don...All is good here Knifebro...or should I say Penbro...LOL..."I hope we haven’t ruptured anything in this thread." No chance of that ever happening on this forum....We all learn from each other and that includes me as well.....Be well and stay safe.....Doc:D

[Don Ellis]

Ay Don...All is good here Knifebro...or should I say Penbro...LOL..."I hope we haven’t ruptured anything in this thread." No chance of that ever happening on this forum....We all learn from each other and that includes me as well.....Be well and stay safe.....Doc:D

Funny... and best news of the day. Thanks.

Don

[Don Ellis]

If you’ll indulge me again, I’d like to suggest one more defensive technique: Hiding behind your woman’s skirts – or as I prefer to think of it, Walking beneath her umbrella of protection.

There is something about Leela’s presence that attracts – and soothes – mad dogs, Englishmen (see below), other feral animals, and me.

In evidence, I’ll offer this photo... both of them styled out in black jackets, her dress matching his patch, their legs symmetrically crossed. Obviously, there’s some sort of subliminal kinship going on there between two people not of the same tribe. And she’s not closing her eyes hoping he’ll go away… they’re closed in half the photos I’ve ever taken of her…

http://www.kleptography.com/dl/spyderco/leela_englishman1.jpg

And who can resist a close-up of… well, take your pick…

http://www.kleptography.com/dl/spyderco/leela_englishman2.jpg

In seventeen years of owning and operating The Prince of Wales Pub in Wanchai, and hosting a mix of locals, expatriates, drunks and sailors on shore leave, Leela never had a fight in the pub. There was something in the atmosphere that suggested it wasn’t acceptable behavior.

The last time we went hiking in the local hills, a herd of feral cows turned and lumbered towards us. I pulled Leela into a dense stand of young, two-inch-diameter trees, but the cows still kept coming – relentless bulldozers intent on meeting her. When they just about had their noses on her, we slipped out the far side of the small forest and climbed on top of a burial mound until they gave up and went away.

http://www.kleptography.com/dl/spyderco/cow1.jpg

http://www.kleptography.com/dl/spyderco/cow2.jpg

And while the Chinese are not known for liking “black” people (Leela is Indian), they all love her for no apparent reason. Grumpy newsstand men break into toothy smiles when she walks by, and I’ve seen shopgirls come out of their stores just to give her a hug. It’s unreal.

It’s like walking around with your own tiny temple goddess. (She's five feet tall.)

She’s also cool in a crisis. In the tsunami of 2004, we were caught out in the open in Khao Lak, Thailand, having breakfast (ten feet below the red dot). Suddenly faced with a 15-foot wall of water that exploded on the beach 100 yards away, it was Leela who reminded me to grab my cameras before we ran for higher ground.

http://www.kleptography.com/dl/spyderco/tsunami.jpg

I’m sure I’ve learned a little about radiating – I'm not sure what exactly... calm and kindness? invulnerability and approachability? – but I think her secret is more elemental than that. And like trying to steal the magic from the village witch doctor, I’m not going to find a way to do it this lifetime, so I just enjoy it – when we’re together, this universal affection includes me, as well.

We met just after New Year’s Day in 1992 when I was going up one escalator and she was coming down another. When I got to the top, I turned and followed like a lumbering cow. Fortunately, there were no burial mounds for her to climb.

These many years later, I still wish the same good luck for everyone else.

Don

[The Mastiff]

Don, Thank you for the pictures, and the story. Fascinating, and heartwarming at the same time. Thanks man! :) Joe

[Don Ellis]

Don, Thank you for the pictures, and the story. Fascinating, and heartwarming at the same time. Thanks man! :) Joe

Joe… that’s very kind. I’m glad you enjoyed it.

I was a little concerned about posting it – not because it’s a personal story, because I feel I’m among friends here – but because of appropriateness. Then I thought, Well, it is the Off-Topic forum, it’s oddly thread-related, and it might be a light finish to a serious discussion. :)

Thanks for making me feel more comfortable about it.

Don

[Billy]

Don, Thank you for the pictures, and the story. Fascinating, and heartwarming at the same time. Thanks man! :) Joe

+1! And even though I don't agree with Don's stance on pen vs. knife, I will say that hopefully, someone will take away the fact that ANYTHING you have handy in a SD situation/crisis can be used in an attempt stop or delay an attack. Again, always be aware of what's going on around you and what could come in handy to thwart a mugging, robbery, rogue dog attack or the inevitable zombie invasion. Also be aware of what escape routes are available to you at all times in case one of the previously mentioned scenarios should unfold.

Have I said lately how much I love this forum for it's civility and general air of mutual respect?:cool::D

[KaliGman]

My wife Leela is a fan of fountain pens and green ink, but her Parker, Dunhill and Caran d’Ache are all worthless – when they’re not leaking, they’re in the repair shop. When she bought me the Mont Blanc, she made sure to buy the rollerball. Lovely pen, but with its heft you wouldn’t want to write a novel with it.
Don

Ahhh, a woman of taste and elegance. I must confess to having been bitten by the fountain pen bug a time or two myself. Leaks did occur, and a certain dress shirt shall never be the same:p. I hate to sound like a Sensa commercial, but about six months ago the deadly fountain pen bug struck again and I picked up a nice champagne colored Sensa Meridian. I admit to cheating, having used only Pelican ink cartridges and not filling from the well as would a true purist, but the results have been very satisfactory. I have my nice, comfortable, padded grip; it writes very smoothly, and there have been no leaks at all, either in storage, in use, or in my pocket. I prefer a bright blue ink, which shows up very well on reports, whether I am approving them with my signature or condemning them to be redrafted by leaving quite a few bright blue "editor from hell" corrections. I am finding myself carrying the Meridian more than one of my Sensa ball points or rollerballs, and far more than the pens of other brands which lounge about my house like unruly teenagers. The Meridian is actually light for a quality fountain pen, especially so if you write with the cap on the desk rather than on the end of the pen, which is my preferred method. It is not quite as swift and sure in the hand as a Schempp Rock Salt, but it does quite well ;). Of course, it is not as "adorned" as a Dunhill or Mont Blanc. There are no solid gold pocket clips or the like on this pen. It is very affordable, especially considering its performance. For once I actually prefer the "Ford Mustang GT" to the "BMW M3," to use a favorite analogy.

As for disagreements, it is really inconsequential. Gentlemen disagree and then discuss. Thugs disagree and then have to "duke it out." Due to my career, experience, training, and personality (or lack thereof:p), I am comfortable in either environment. It does become very easy, when dealing routinely with the "rougher" members of society on a routine basis, to become a bit rougher edged as well. My wife, of course, states it far more eloquently. "Jon, you are such an a$# sometimes." Of course, it is not the same without the eye roll and long suffering Italian princess look.

Your photos were excellent by the way. You have skill, talent, and a good eye. I use the "shotgun approach" and take a lot of photos, as I have neither skill, talent, nor a good eye (and this after going to two different surveillance photography schools:rolleyes:). My last Black Belt magazine article used photos taken by one of my students, and they were nearly as bad as my photos would have been. Luckily, one of my task force officers has a side job as a professional photographer, so the next article or two should have better photos.

Regards,

Jon

[Don Ellis]

Ahhh, a woman of taste and elegance. I must confess to having been bitten by the fountain pen bug a time or two myself. Leaks did occur, and a certain dress shirt shall never be the same .

At least you didn’t do it to yourself. I’ve managed that with my rollerball… slotting it back into my pocket without screwing on the cap.


I hate to sound like a Sensa commercial, but about six months ago the deadly fountain pen bug struck again and I picked up a nice champagne colored Sensa Meridian. I admit to cheating, having used only Pelican ink cartridges and not filling from the well as would a true purist, but the results have been very satisfactory.

I’ll have a look… I like the idea of fountain pens in principle… it’s just the practical that hasn’t measured up. And I’ve been lazy in looking around, figuring that if Leela’s good ones don’t work, what hope is there for less expensive models.

I’ve suggested cartridges to the girl, but they don’t come in green ink and I haven’t volunteered to hand-fill them. So we struggle on.


I have my nice, comfortable, padded grip; it writes very smoothly, and there have been no leaks at all, either in storage, in use, or in my pocket. I prefer a bright blue ink, which shows up very well on reports, whether I am approving them with my signature or condemning them to be redrafted by leaving quite a few bright blue "editor from hell" corrections.

You write well and good writers are hard to find. Our agency recently let two writers go because they didn’t learn anything in the nine months they were with us. And even the two new ones admit they know little about grammar, saying their schools valued creativity more. So much for being able to teach two things at once.


I am finding myself carrying the Meridian more than one of my Sensa ball points or rollerballs… Of course, it is not as "adorned" as a Dunhill or Mont Blanc.

Function always wins over form, although it’s nice if you can get both.


As for disagreements, it is really inconsequential. Gentlemen disagree and then discuss. Thugs disagree and then have to "duke it out." Due to my career, experience, training, and personality (or lack thereof ), I am comfortable in either environment.

I don’t know what you do exactly, but I am certain that I am glad you do it – and most likely grateful that you do it – and not me. So thank you for that. I enjoy being here and there’s no pleasure or benefit in annoying long-time and respected members of the forum.

And this forum has been a marvelous new learning experience. I’d been pretty happy with my original Viele for years… enough so that I hadn’t looked around for another EDC. But after one of them was taken away from me on The London Eye (who knew they had airport-level security – not me), and then buying a Viele II in desperation and never connecting with it, I stumbled onto this forum. It was like enrolling in class again… so much to know about steels and grinds and overall designs. And of course so many beautiful Spydercos that I didn’t know existed because I never see them in shops.

The Stretch 2 was a special revelation. Visually, I had passed it over… it wasn’t until I read the positive comments by forum members that I decided to order one online… and then ordered a second one right after the first one arrived. Without the forum, I wouldn’t have considered it and now I couldn’t be happier.


It does become very easy, when dealing routinely with the "rougher" members of society on a routine basis, to become a bit rougher edged as well. My wife, of course, states it far more eloquently. "Jon, you are such an a$# sometimes." Of course, it is not the same without the eye roll and long suffering Italian princess look.

Woman is man’s anchor to earth – one of the few semi-profound things a friend has ever said to me.


Your photos were excellent by the way. You have skill, talent, and a good eye. I use the "shotgun approach" and take a lot of photos, as I have neither skill, talent, nor a good eye (and this after going to two different surveillance photography schools ).

Thank you… that’s kind. But I think we use the same approach… I just call it “bracketing.” :) I have a very fast finger on the Delete key, so only about one percent of my photos ever get off my screen and onto someone else’s. On a six-day trip to Hanoi, I took 4000 shots, but only about 40 will make the cut and some of those will survive only to provide continuity for an accompanying story… they wouldn’t stand on their own artistic merit.

I like one of Ansel Adam’s quotes: “Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a good crop.” Of course, he’s played in a different league, so I get to keep more.


My last Black Belt magazine article used photos taken by one of my students, and they were nearly as bad as my photos would have been. Luckily, one of my task force officers has a side job as a professional photographer, so the next article or two should have better photos

It’s been years since I’ve read that magazine… glad to know it’s still alive and, dare I say, kicking. I’ll visit the library and look for your name.

It’s been a good encounter.

Don

[Agent Starling]

Wow! Literary self-defense/photos, a lively discussion, more photos, and...where are we? Great thread, man! :D

Agent Starling

[jzmtl]

http://www.kleptography.com/dl/spyderco/leela_englishman1.jpg
Don

Don, for a second I thought you were gona say "here is a picture of leela and me..." :D

[Don Ellis]

Don, for a second I thought you were gona say "here is a picture of leela and me..." :D

If only I had half the man's style... but I did get the girl. :D

Don

[buglerbilly]

Don,

A question if I may but was that interesting pic of your wife and the young man taken in Berlin or one of the other German cities?

My cousin has a grandson who dresses much like him but without the facial tats................:rolleyes:

He is however one of the sweetest personalities one could wish for........;)

Regards,

BRIAN

[Don Ellis]

Don,

A question if I may but was that interesting pic of your wife and the young man taken in Berlin or one of the other German cities?

My cousin has a grandson who dresses much like him but without the facial tats................:rolleyes:

He is however one of the sweetest personalities one could wish for........;)

Regards,

BRIAN

Hi Brian,

It was taken just under The London Eye -- where security guards relieved me of one of my Vieles, but that's another story.

He was leaning up against the Dali Museum and we were immediately taken by him and went over to chat. The man does have style... every detail well thought out and his clothes as crisp as a uniform, which I suppose it is.

Like your cousin's grandson, he's one of the nicest guys you'd want to meet. Even offered to throw in a social-finger gesture for the photo, but I politely declined. :rolleyes:

Cheers,
Don

[buglerbilly]

Ahh in London, yeah you can see he's actually tidy and neat if eccentric by conservative standards. ;)

BUT then again I have a New Zealand Maori aquaintance who has his whole face and skull tattoo'd and he is the most polite and well read person I have ever met in or out of Universities.

The facade is most obvious external presentation of a person but what lies underneath is infinitely more interesting and often "different".

Regards,

BRIAN

[pantopop]

fantastic thread thanks to all who posted and thanks Don for starting it-dp

[Don Ellis]

fantastic thread thanks to all who posted and thanks Don for starting it-dp

Always happy to walk in front of a train for the greater good of the group. :D

Don

[v8r]

When I took the test for my CHL the instructor said a few things that really stuck out to me.He said" lots of things aren't what they appear, and always be aware of your surroundings". He also said don't be a hero.
The best thing to do is stay out of the situation(don't go to a part of town where you might encounter trouble etc.)Park your vehicle out in the open where you can see every direction.
A handgun or knife is something you pull if you plan on using it. For me If I feel my life is in danger I am going to pull my .45.
I think just being prepared and of the right frame of mind will keep most anyone out of trouble.If you plan on using a Knife,Handgun or whatever I think at that point I wouldn't be too worried about a court battle,or the police,I would personally be in survival mode.Do what needs to be done right then and worry about the rest later.
I am no expert or claim to be,there are others here more wise and have a lifetime of training that could probably give better advice. Just my 2 cents.;)

[fret]

When I was younger,stronger,healthier,etc., I was mugged. Totally unexpected and very quick. No time to react with knife,fists, or pens. Now that I'm an UHOG, (UnHealthy Old Guy) and use a cane to get around, I've considered using my aluminum cane as a self defense weapon. So I whacked my leg with it to see if it hurt. It did not hurt much. So that is not something I'd use to defend myself with. It would probably piss off the mugger and he'd kill me in the process of my mugging moments. I'd like to carry a gun to defend myself but I really don't want to off some poor drug addict who's just doing his job of getting some cash to keep his lifestyle going. So I have learned to avoid mugging situations although not completely. :confused:

[cobrajoe]

Not to add heat to a discussion, but I found that the pen was #5 on the list of the 8 Greatest Makeshift Movie Weapons (http://www.cracked.com/article_15086_8-greatest-makeshift-movie-weapons.html)

[Don Ellis]

Not to add heat to a discussion, but I found that the pen was #5 on the list of the 8 Greatest Makeshift Movie Weapons (http://www.cracked.com/article_15086_8-greatest-makeshift-movie-weapons.html)

That was amusingly written... thanks.

By the way, I think I found your drink in Laos...

http://www.kleptography.com/dl/snake_whisky1.jpg


http://www.kleptography.com/dl/snake_whisky2.jpg

[Monocrom]

Mont Blancs are indeed "Me Too" pens. Every Yuppie owns one. As far as quality, having worked as a pen salesman; I can tell you that their yearly limited editions are worth the asking price... And only their limited editions. There's an old joke among those of us who sell pens.

"What's the name of the high-end, German pen company that makes some of the best pens in the world?"

Answer: Pelikan.

Even if we shared that joke with the customers, I doubt anyone but the hard-core collectors would get it.

A cheaper alternative is to take a look at the offerings of MonteVerde, for those looking for a pen that's good for self-defense. One of their pen lines looks very similar to a rather well-known defense pen, at about half the price and none of the lame defense pen advertising that it gets.