PDA

View Full Version : stigma on knives made in taiwan and china



duff72
04-06-2009, 03:49 PM
I have a tenacious and a sage and can find nothing wrong with either one (love the sage,like the tenacious) but for some reason I have something in my head that tells me they are inferior. Like I said nothing wrong with these knives ( I think they are a very very good value) just probably the cheap chinese stuff that has been on the market for so long has tainted me---any one else

Sherpa
04-06-2009, 03:57 PM
It's hard for me to believe that "Made in China" and "Made in Taiwan" are not necessarily low quality anymore.

I have personally owned a G 10 crossbill. Made in China.
I've had a Sage that was made in Taiwan.

Both were outstanding values in my opinion.

WhiteWillie
04-06-2009, 04:55 PM
I have two knives made in Taiwan and they are both excellent. I'll avoid products I know are made in China, pending their political conversion. It may be a long wait.

The Deacon
04-06-2009, 06:03 PM
Probably easier for me because I'm older and can recall when Jap = crap (anyone here remember the very first Subarus? :eek: ).

If the Sage is not enough to convince someone that Taiwan can produces some pretty damn good knives, nothing ever will. I'd rate it as good or better than 99% of the stuff coming out of Seki and definitely better than anything coming out of Seki at its price point.

China, in my opinion, is not quite there yet, or at least nobody including Sal is willing to take the risk of trying to market a knife with a $100 street price that has "Made in China" on it. The Tenacious is a decent knife, but nowhere near the same level of workmanship as the Sage.

FMAKNut
04-06-2009, 06:09 PM
I think I would take to the Tenacious if it had some top and bottom jimping like the Sage and Caly3. Other than that, I would buy and try.

Lord vader
04-06-2009, 07:14 PM
Hi Deacon, Do you mean this subaru

roguesoul
04-06-2009, 07:25 PM
China is like two different countries. Almost like saying North America and thinking USA, totally forgetting about Canada and Mexico. I just read some of the Wiki on Taiwan. There is Peoples Repuplic of China, PRC(commies) and Republic of China ROC (democratic Taiwan).

Three great knives from Taiwan would be the S, Sage and titanium Salsa.

5.56
04-06-2009, 07:55 PM
Edit: staying out of this one

one thing though......... remember you have a choice when selecting which models you support and represent.

J Smith
04-06-2009, 08:02 PM
I have to buy too much stuff made in China.
I will not do it if I have a choice.

roguesoul
04-06-2009, 08:17 PM
Edit: staying out of this one

one thing......... you do have a choice when choosing which models you support.

How does that saying go: "Cutting off the nose to spite the face".

We are supporting Sal and Spyderco, not specific models or countries. I for one am very impressed by Spyderco's altruism not to mention how they listen to, and put up with, us. A fantastic company deserving our respect and support.

alexcue
04-06-2009, 08:18 PM
I know this is preaching to the choir, but the Sage, once again is a GREAT knife on it's own, for it's price point its a bargain. It's put together really, really well. It represents Taiwan very well.

The Tenacious is another story IMO. Personally i think it is worth, what it is worth. Maybe I'm a snob, but to me it's a beater type knife and if i lent it to someone and didn't see it again, so be it.

Sword of Morning
04-06-2009, 09:09 PM
The Tenacious is another story IMO. Personally i think it is worth, what it is worth. Maybe I'm a snob, but to me it's a beater type knife and if i lent it to someone and didn't see it again, so be it.

That is exactly what the Tenacious is good for. It will very happily take a beating. It performs its function well and isn't out there to win beauty contests or sit in a safe. If you do manage to lose it or somehow destroy it, you can easily afford to buy another.

MCM
04-06-2009, 09:47 PM
With so many great blades to choose from, I avoid both.

MileHiKnifeGuy
04-06-2009, 09:59 PM
I think some of you have missed the point. Any good knife company will look to meet their customers needs from different price points. It's part of gaining market share. Spyderco needed a model or two to meet the lower price point knife market yet still meet customer expectations for a Spyderco knife. I think they did a great job in giving us the Sage and the Tenacious. If for some reason they don't meet your needs don't buy them. As for me, I will buy three or four so I will always have one available and be grateful for a company that is giving me a great knife at a great price. :)

STR
04-06-2009, 10:27 PM
Used to be in the early days that Japan had the magnified stigma placed on it which China seems to have inherited today. Taiwan had it for a time also right beside Japan and both Japan and Taiwan still do carry a bit of that old stigma today but both Japan and Taiwan seem to fair better than China IMO. Regardless of where something is made, whether its Hong Kong, China, Japan, Taiwan, Italy or where ever people state side seem to want to blame the foreign countries for taking away our jobs by doing these things when in fact they would not have the jobs if we (read US business Corp.) didn't gladly contract the jobs away to save a buck so who is really at fault?? If not doing so causes the company to suffer, or maybe even go belly up which is the lesser of the two evils? I think most can figure that out. It is highly debatable and often times a hot topic so at the risk of once again opening my mouth on a subject I'd probably have been far better of on just staying quiet about I'll say this much more.

We all know some very fine knives are made in Japan, in fact some of the finest cutlery in the world. The Japanese on whole seem quite honorable to me and in my own dealings with them in the dental business they were nothing less than this way every time. Italy seems quite good as does Taiwan and speaking of Taiwan two of my all time favorite knives were made in Taiwan, the Spyderco S and the CRKT S2 both of which I would put against any knife I've paid twice or three times the price for and still find little to argue with for what I have in either of these knives.

China does scare me for business relations. Not the quality factor so much anymore since that seems to have greatly improved and I won't get into all the reasons they scare me but frankly I have trouble trusting them fully personally. Of course I can say very much the same for some American businesses I dealt with and felt betrayed and back stabbed by a time or three also. You build relationships and hope that they don't turn on you but unfortunately it is not always the case. Even in the knife industry a time or two some relationships have gone sour and once some trust is lost its hard to ever get that back. Sometimes its a hard lesson to learn and usually too late when you do. Lets hope that is not the case with the USA and China regarding business.

STR

bohica1998
04-06-2009, 10:54 PM
I honestly didn't know the Tenacious was made in China. When I got mine, my first thought was that I had gotten a cheap copy or something (Got it off Ebay, it DOES happen, lol!). But after lurking about for a while here, I realized it really WAS a Spyderco.

Personally, I don't care where they have them made as long as the quality I've come to expect from this company's product is there.

I will bide my time and see how they fare. I have a Native from Golden, a Tenacious from China, and a knife from one of Spyderco's suppliers in Seki, Japan. (A Moki MK920 SE)

We'll see how they do as time goes by, hehe.

Knifewing
04-08-2009, 11:48 AM
I recently broke down and bought Byrd Robin G-10 to use as a travel knife--something not too expensive that I wouldn't be heartbroken to lose or have taken from my luggage. My collection is almost exclusively Spydercos and I never really paid any attention to the Bryd line. When I got the Robin I was impressed with the features and quality of the package for the money (key phrase)--pretty much what Sal and others on the Forum had said about the Byrd line. (I liken it to finding a pretty darn good $4.99-5.99 wine that's fine for everyday drinking.) But I seriously doubt I would ever buy a Chinese made knife from any maker other than Spyderco. That said, I sure wish Spyderco would bring out a Robin package in the Spyderco line with full Spyderco F&F, materials (G-10, VG-10, back lock), and quality. Maybe the new G-10 Dragonfly will fill that niche...

Mako109
04-08-2009, 12:15 PM
I keep it simple in this regard. I buy "QUALITY" and move on with my life. There are much more important decisions to make, like what's for lunch? :D

Jay_Ev
04-08-2009, 01:35 PM
How does that saying go: "Cutting off the nose to spite the face".

We are supporting Sal and Spyderco, not specific models or countries. I for one am very impressed by Spyderco's altruism not to mention how they listen to, and put up with, us. A fantastic company deserving our respect and support.

+1. When one buys a Tenacious or Byrd, ultimately the dollars go to Spyderco which in turn helps them to develop and build all of the other knives in the lineup. The gang at Spyderco bends over backwards trying to appease and accommodate our wants, needs and desires. If I can show gratitude and appreciation by purchasing a Tenacious then I am happy to do so.

Spyderknife
04-08-2009, 02:01 PM
I stick to USA and Japan when it comes to my :spyder:'s. Although I'm not from the USA, products made in the USA have always represented top QUALITY to me and I don't mind paying a premium for that.

Personally I will not buy any Spyderco knife made in China. I would have preferred not seeing the :spyder: bug on a knife made in China. Could have kept that for the Byrds (which I won't buy either), but I don't mind them being made there cause they don't have the :spyder: on them.

RIOT
04-08-2009, 02:02 PM
im not a fan at all of the tawain & china Spyders. Im sure alot dont agree but when you have the knife in hand, open & closing the blade, the look, the feel, it doesnt feel like what Spyderco means to me, i do understand the fact that they are targeting the lower priced market. IMHO

The Deacon
04-08-2009, 02:43 PM
im not a fan at all of the tawain & china Spyders. Im sure alot dont agree but when you have the knife in hand, open & closing the blade, the look, the feel, it doesnt feel like what Spyderco means to me, i do understand the fact that they are targeting the lower priced market. IMHOHave you actually ever handled a Sage? Just curious because to me its fit and finish compare favorably to those of any liner lock model Spyderco has ever produced anywhere with the possible exception of the C22 CF Walker, and even that's arguable IMHO. Its materials are top quality as well. Just wondering what you find "low end" about it.

Mako109
04-08-2009, 03:25 PM
Have you actually ever handled a Sage? Just curious because to me its fit and finish compare favorably to those of any liner lock model Spyderco has ever produced anywhere with the possible exception of the C22 CF Walker, and even that's arguable IMHO. Its materials are top quality as well. Just wondering what you find "low end" about it.

+1. To me the Sage drips with Spyderco QUALITY.

flipe8
04-08-2009, 03:27 PM
I don't really have a problem with ethically-sourced products, but that means the companydoing the outsourcing has to do their homework. I know a company I buy much (if not most) of my outdoor gear from in Canada, Mountain Equipment Co-Op, does their best to ethically outsource products. They have, in the past, sprung surprise visits on factories in Asia to see if they practise what they preach. And if memory serves, they have cancelled business with some factories for breaching the terms of agreement regarding treatment of workers. It's not perfect as I'm sure if all things were equal, those jobs would be here. But seeing how that's not reality, ethically outsourcing is probably the best a company trying to stay afloat can do in these difficult times. I trust Spyderco has done their homework and is making the best of the situation.

Sam Vimes
04-08-2009, 03:28 PM
If anyone seriously thinks the Sage is inferior in any way shape or form, I can only hazard a guess that they've never seen one. If they have then their prejudice must be blinding them to reality. The Tenacious is what it is, an excellent knife at its price point. I'm happy to have both amongst my Golden and Seki made Spydercos and my odd Chinese made Byrds.
When it comes to the whole idea of the ethics and not buying Chinese products on principal, I can only sit and wonder exactly how you are posting on a forum without the benefit of Chinese made electronic equipment.:confused:;):D

sal
04-08-2009, 03:30 PM
Hi MileHiKnifeGuy,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum and thanx much for the understanding.

We work for our customers.

A group with a wide variety of preferences and needs. We are not suggesting that all of you are intersted in all of our products. that's not likely as we make many different knives in many different parts of the world. We always try to provide good value and good quality in our niche, which is safe, reliable high performance.

sal

alexcue
04-08-2009, 03:33 PM
+1. To me the Sage drips with Spyderco QUALITY.

I second that!!! My Sage is with me more days than not!:)

Joshua J.
04-08-2009, 05:29 PM
I like to think of buying products as supporting the economy of whichever country made them.
Taiwan seems to be a pretty decent place, China still has a ways to go before I can support them outright.

duff72
04-08-2009, 07:30 PM
I didnt mean to set this fire , was just wondering - and let me repeat I love my sage i like my tenacious

Jay_Ev
04-08-2009, 07:57 PM
I didnt mean to set this fire , was just wondering - and let me repeat I love my sage i like my tenacious

No worries, duff72. This topic gets brought up from time to time in here and it always turns into a serious debate and a sensitive issue.

SpaceInvader
04-08-2009, 10:52 PM
This thread is starting to resemble one of those "what do you think of CRKT" threads that have occasionally surfaced on this forum over the years and probably contributed to the shiny footsteps policy. In other words, explain (or rant about) your quality biases.

For me, when I started buying knives back in the 70s, I only bought customs, never considered buying a production knife no matter the country of origin. A few years ago I began to only buy Spydies, as it seemed they had everything that interested me and were A LOT cheaper. Lately the only knives I've bought are a few Blackhawks and discontinued CRKTs, as I think both of these companies have designs that are certainly the equal of Spydercos. Over time, most knife nuts move up their perceived ladder of quality, I seem to be going in the opposite direction. :) I used to buy customs when it would bust my budget, now I can readily afford those knives but I don't buy them anymore.

IMO, knife quality is a fetish, a moving target that I think many knife nuts continually redefine for themselves as their level of interest comes and goes.

-Rick

sixheads
04-09-2009, 04:59 AM
I cary my sage the most out of all spydies, Its fit and finish is right there with any other spydie. Its the only knife i would consider 2 of. On my limited budget i thank the spycie crew for a beautiful knife i can afford.

I dont care if its made in china Irac afganastan or even the usa i support good quality at low prices.

Sixheads

knife_junky
04-09-2009, 05:09 AM
Its all about involvment and proper sourcing.. There are both reputable factories and nonreputable factories all over Taiwan and China. Sal and spyderco have obviously taken the time to partner with a quality manufacturer, dont missunderstand me you can have a .79 cent knife made in taiwan but your goonna get what you pay for but if you spec out a quality product with a factory that has good quality controll in place your gonna get a high quality products thats more affordable than making it here in the states..

224477
04-09-2009, 05:40 AM
Ehm, I handled the Sage once and it didnt made the BANG for me :rolleyes:
Okey, I might have spent not enought time with it. ;)

On the other hand, I played a couple of minutes with the Tenacious and I was AMAZED by the quality, fit n finish and lock up of that one.

On the other hand, I have to admit, that I would better pay 100$ for a non-chinese product, than for a chinese one.
And I have a couple of China made folders which are amazing quality.
The problem I have with China stuff is more ethics related than quality related. I have seen they are getting better and better in questions of small tolerances, but I am sad to see chinese vendors are able to produce a 'spyderco-like' knife. Or simply put a hole on a blade they did for someone else. They are creating products of others designs and inventions and 'create' their own products in this way. Thats what I do not like.

And for the rest, I wont talk political opinions here. :cool:

spydutch
04-09-2009, 08:23 AM
Via Chad I got a black Trance/CE from Boker to test out. Made in Taiwan. Well let me tell you after a year of really hard use at my work the knife is still like I got it besides being scratched up. Still perfect lock up and the liner hasn't move a hair:cool:

Out of curiosity I bought a Tenacious in full SpyderEdge as well and I was surprised at the quality. Only don't like the serration pattern. Not very Spyderco. But as soon as the Chinese get that down I won't hesitate for a second to buy a China/Taiwan made knife.

Because of the edge configuration I didn't handle a Sage, but looking at the pics it seems like a very well made knife;)

Sure wish that frame lock Sage came in full SpyderEdge:(

araneae
04-09-2009, 08:44 AM
I have seen they are getting better and better in questions of small tolerances, but I am sad to see chinese vendors are able to produce a 'spyderco-like' knife. Or simply put a hole on a blade they did for someone else. They are creating products of others designs and inventions and 'create' their own products in this way. Thats what I do not like.

And for the rest, I wont talk political opinions here. :cool:

Knock-offs are always an issue for companies known for high quality goods. There is always some turd out there hoping to make a buck off of others' designs, not all of them are from China. There are "American" companies that buy/distribute this junk. They are like fleas on a dog, scratch one off and another pops up later. A sad reality for businesses.

While there are plenty of cheap knockoffs on the market I do not let them detract from the quality products that Spyderco produces with their Asian vendors. I know Sal makes quality a priority, no matter where the knives come from. I love my 2 Tenacious and all my many Byrds.

hickster
04-09-2009, 09:52 AM
Without getting into politics... Taiwan and China are NOT one in the same. I've stated my views elsewhere, but I love my Sage; don't own any Byrds. Not because I won't, but because I don't have to.
hickster

RIOT
04-09-2009, 10:17 AM
Have you actually ever handled a Sage? Just curious because to me its fit and finish compare favorably to those of any liner lock model Spyderco has ever produced anywhere with the possible exception of the C22 CF Walker, and even that's arguable IMHO. Its materials are top quality as well. Just wondering what you find "low end" about it.

Hello Deacon,

I have to admit the Sage is probably the one that isnt so bad to me, traded it though.

ive handle the following

S
Q
Tenacious
Sage
& the Salsa

Mako109
04-09-2009, 12:19 PM
+1 "Knock-offs are always an issue for companies known for high quality goods. There is always some turd out there hoping to make a buck off of others' designs, not all of them are from China. There are "American" companies that buy/distribute this junk." (Araneae)

To add, anyone here remember how distinct Japanese cars use to look compared to American cars? Now days there are American cars that look remarkably like Japanese models. In the late 70's early 80's business schools were agressively studying how American car companies were forced to study Japanese companies and emulate their management, production and even designs, in order to compete. Who's copying who? Jay Leno even quipped about Americans producing "knock-off" of Japanese cars. Producing knock-offs may not be kosher, but I don't think its fair to think that the U.S. is above all that either.


+1 "Without getting into politics... Taiwan and China are NOT one in the same." (Hickster)

Yup, the Chinese food in Taiwan is far better in than in China, at least when I visited, especially the pork noodle soup. But I hear China has really moved up the ladder since I was there:)

jzmtl
04-09-2009, 01:12 PM
I like to think of buying products as supporting the economy of whichever country made them.
Taiwan seems to be a pretty decent place, China still has a ways to go before I can support them outright.

Without getting into politics... Taiwan and China are NOT one in the same. I've stated my views elsewhere, but I love my Sage; don't own any Byrds. Not because I won't, but because I don't have to.
hickster


Funny how I always hear that, consider 99% of the people who say it have never been to either place, only what the news told them to think.

Spydiman
04-09-2009, 01:15 PM
Funny how I always hear that, consider 99% of the people who say it have never been to either place.

I've never been to the moon either.

IT MUST BE MADE OF CHEESE!!!!!

jeff189
04-09-2009, 01:31 PM
I think it is weird that there is a little backlash at people who want to buy U.S.A. made products. That is what I buy unless what I want is not made here. I buy SAKs and H1 and designs I really like that are made in other countries, but if there were something with similar properties made in the United States I would buy it instead every time.
I look at it like the kid who grew up in Pittsburgh is more likely to buy a Steelers t-shirt than a Eagles t-shirt. Big deal, I do not have a problem with the other country, I just really like mine. I am not sure if that is a stigma but if so that is the reason I have one.

clovisc
04-09-2009, 02:37 PM
i think there is a danger in making generalizations about china and taiwan. i'm sure that in both countries, there are factories capable of high quality work, as well as factories capable of bottom of the barrel work. i think spyderco's been doing an excellent job of working with factories that can produce very high quality knives.

the sage and chokwe are awesome. keep it up, spyderco!!!

jzmtl
04-09-2009, 07:05 PM
I've never been to the moon either.

IT MUST BE MADE OF CHEESE!!!!!

I can tell what it's made of from photos.

You must be some sort of genius to be able to know a society from photos, or more likely just full of it. :rolleyes:


I think it is weird that there is a little backlash at people who want to buy U.S.A. made products.

There is no backlash at people who want to buy u.s. made products, I respect that if that's what you choose. There is however backlash against people who think everyone else is inferior, either morally or materialistically.

hickster
04-09-2009, 07:23 PM
Funny how I always hear that, consider 99% of the people who say it have never been to either place, only what the news told them to think.

Oops, you got me.
Yep, you're smarter than me.
You win.:rolleyes:
hickster

jzmtl
04-10-2009, 11:05 AM
Oops, you got me.
Yep, you're smarter than me.
You win.:rolleyes:
hickster

Didn't say I am, stop putting words in my mouth just so you can argue with it.

araneae
04-10-2009, 11:34 AM
Please- Chill guys. Not appropriate here.

Don't make me go PB&J again...

hickster
04-10-2009, 08:42 PM
Funny how I always hear that, consider 99% of the people who say it have never been to either place, only what the news told them to think.

^ Who's arguing?:rolleyes:

sal
04-10-2009, 08:52 PM
It is very difficult to make comments about some countries that apply to everyone in that country. Countries are big things with lotsa people. Good people, bad people, and everything in between.

We seek good makers, worldwide. It is quite difficult to find really good makers. It takes passion, dedication, persistence and consistency. Both to be a good maker and to find a good maker.

We've tried many makers that we didn't continue working with. Maybe it was quality, maybe it was something else.

We've been fortunate to be able to find a number of makers worldwide. Our makers are skilled and we develop long term relationships with them. Some of our makers have been with us for 28 years.

The question in the end is really "what's in a name?" We try to keep our name good.

sal

jzmtl
04-10-2009, 10:21 PM
^ Who's arguing?:rolleyes:

Perhaps you should re-read my last post. I said do not put words in my mouth, and argue with them as if I said it. So far that's all you've been doing, putting words in my mouth and twisting my meaning to suit your purpose. If you cannot comprehend a sentence you should stay away from argument.

I received an PM from a member stating his reason for dislike China, which is because China imprisons and kills people who share Gospel openly, and people have to sneak in bibles. Well here is my response, maybe some people would like to read it.

"This is why I'm so annoyed by people who hate China based on things they hear, because 99% of the time it's totally made up.

I don't know where did you hear that from, when I used to live there there's a church 10 minutes away and operates just like any church in North America. My grandma was a Christian living in China, nobody ever bothered her. I've also been to areas with a lot of Muslim population, and they practice their religion just like everybody else."

I know there is no winning with this argument because there are just too many people believe in made up things, so I will not proceed any further either in this thread or others.

JLS
04-10-2009, 11:51 PM
Getting back to the original topic, I seek quality and versatility in whatever I buy. I'm also a big supporter in free-market economics. (Yes, even when that hurts me in the short run; it fosters innovation and quality in the future. I like to think I can see a bigger picture than myself economically.)

I drive a Subaru, not because I'm a hippie/enviromentalist as the stigma goes now. I like it because it's reliable and the few things that have gone wrong are relatively easy to get to and fix. It's a well engineered car. The Honda Accord my wife had earlier was a pain to work on. And so goes the world.

I will admit a huge personal bias in knives towards Spyderco. They have always had excellent knives at attractive prices and their business attitude is very laudable. The fact that they're willing to recognize others innovations in knives and pay royalties on them is big. It shows responsibility, humility and integrity. I have a certain amount of trust in Spyderco. That's bound to happen after about 15 years of good use and excellent customer service the few times it's been needed.

I own a few Byrds and a serrated Tenacious. I gave away 2 Tenacious PE's around Christmas and one of the recipients bought a duplicate. He's since quit using his other knives (that include a few other Spyderco's).

The Tenacious and Byrd knives are good knives at any price point, but exceptional considering what they do cost. How many would be willing to buy the same design made here? I personally don't think a US made Tenacious would do very well considering it would cost (this is an estimate only) perhaps $90 street cost. Then people would whine that it "only has AUS-8 level steel" and "where's the S90V and BG42?"

We are a hard group to please; I think most of us recognize that. The mainland Chinese made knives aren't necessarily meant for us as a group. They're meant as "teaser" knives or as just a good, inexpensive but quality user. I was laying sod earlier this week and between me and a friend, we used a serrated Tenacious, a G-10 Harpy and an original Rescue. They all worked. I don't feel bad about beating up the Harpy and Rescue because they're already worked hard for years. But I felt no remorse about getting the Tenacious dirty and half dull because it's so easy to replace, both from an availability and economic standpoint.

I don't consider the Taiwanese knives to be in the same class as the mainland Chinese knives. I have yet to find a Taiwanese knife that really does it for me in size and configuration. The Salsa's I've played with have been fantastic knives, just didn't suit me personally. They're generally a bit small for me, but I am anxiously awaiting the Chokwe.

To sum all of this up, it's all about quality.

araneae
04-11-2009, 08:29 AM
Okay I told you.
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/amSQDw3hE40&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/amSQDw3hE40&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

I had some delicious blueberry jam this week. MMM...PB&J.