What role does Martial Arts Training play in the Art of Knife Fighting

[Dr. Snubnose]

Well I know the answer to this question...but I wanted to hear from others what their thoughts are on this topic. In some recent threads (and everyone always like a good SD related thread) I read that Martial Arts has little or nothing to do with knife fighting... I can tell you from my experience as a youth studying Judo, Karate, Wrestling, Boxing, we had little exposure to knives in our training, maybe a few disarms here and there. My old man taught me more about knife fighting, teaching me the techniques he learned in the service, mostly WWII Combatives. FMA which is mostly a weapons based art taught me a lot about knives and knife fighting and it seems nowadays that most knife fighting Gurus have some exposure to the Filipino Arts, and my Chinese Kung Fu taught me a tremendous amount of bladed weapons works. You don't need Martial Arts training to pick up a knife or prison shank and do lots of damage to another individual, but for those who have studied one or more forms of Martial Arts, What role do you think it has when it comes to knife fighting?....I will weigh in on my thoughts a little later in this thread giving others the opportunity to share their thoughts and experiences....Doc:D

[Jordan]

I think that knife fighting can be divided into three separate subjects, each with it's own answer to this inquiry. First, a fight in which two (or more) combatants are all armed with an edged implement. Second, a fight in which an aggressor is armed with an edged implement. Third, a fight in which the defender is armed with an edged implement.

In all three categories, safe to say that some amount of combative training is going to be helpful... whether it be martial art or military. Of course, so will ample physical conditioning, mental acuity, and heavy clothing.

In the first category, I would say that a martial arts background would rate about a 3 of 5 on the general importance scale. Knife fighting isn't fencing... it is up close and personal, and much like the handgun compared to the rifle... the knife is not the manstopper that the sword was. You are likely going to have to hurt the other guy... a lot... before he stops trying to hurt you. My OPINION (just putting that out there... cause that's all it is) is primarily based on the fact that, since in this situation the other guy has a knife too... what is really important is endurance, tolerance for pain, and speed over control and precision. I will grant you, a martial arts background can increase the first three capacities just as well as the others... but so can an athletic lifestyle with no martial training whatsoever.

The second category branches again, depending on what "role" you play in it. If you are the armed aggressor facing an unarmed defender... I would say martial arts ability rates a dead 0 in my arbitrary 5 point scale. I can get punched in the head lots of times before I lose the ability to get all stabby... you have all the advantages, it is your fight to lose. If you are the defender (far more likely for most of us, I'd think... fair to assume that most of you are law abiding citizens, unlikely to attack an unarmed individual with a knife?), then martial training rises to an importance rating of 12 in my 5 point scale. You have NO advantages save for training (and maybe a barstool, or whatever is around)... so whatever you've got... it's real important.

In the third category, same thing... two roles to play... if you are the aggressor, and the defender pops out a blade when you engage... you are in 12 out of 5 land again. He has a knife, you don't... warm up your karate chop. Actually, make that a regular 5 out of 5... you are at a disadvantage, but combat favors the aggressive, so your disadvantage is tempered by getting to determine the place and pace of the fight. If you are the armed defender, then I would put you back into the 3 of 5 neighborhood. You have your work cut out for you, because you have to take the momentum of the fight away from the attacker... but you have a weapon and he doesn't, so you don't have to be as good as he is to beat him.

At least, that's how I see it... great question though, looking forward to the responses.

[SolidState]

I'd say combat training is quite important in knife interactions. I have been attacked by knives twice, luckily both times by untrained people. The first interaction was a stab at my stomach that actually got me pretty deep. In that situation, my training got me aware of the situation far faster than I would have been otherwise, and my training also started the gross muscle movements necessary to disarm and disable the aggressor after only one successful attack. The second situation was resolved with none of my blood shed due to my ability to provoke and time counters. The knife was dropped after a simple pass-block containing a punch to the armpit, followed by an armbar takedown.

Prior to training, I would probably have been more stabby than slashy, and I would not be so clear about where the edge is at all times. I'd be more likely to cross up, and wreck myself with footwork problems.

Also, it is far easier to defang a snake with a knife and know-how than otherwise.

[MCM]

Its all about when you realize your opponent has a knife.
(Or you even have an opponent)

If its not made aware to you, your at a huge disadvantage.

[markg]

Traditional martial arts provides a context for training. The martial art I study does use edged weapons, and it does focus on knives. IMHO, most Japanese martial arts (which I am in) the knife work is closely related and must be viewed from the context of the sword. In most cases the footwork is similar. You have to understand that. Sadly, in a modern context, it does not match up with how the knife is used in the modern world.

Martial arts gives the student a context to train in combatives. Being hit, someone touching you in training, falling down... All this done in a friendly safe way. One learns this from a traditional martial art. For example, I would never have known that when someone hits me hard it is a sign of respect and and an affirmation of your training.

If we are taking about most of the martial system out there. (Modern knife fighting curriculum) you have to acknowledge that their systems have a core given from a traditional martial art.

Martial systems need martial arts at some point.

And frankly, it is not fair to generalize martial arts, as each school is represented by a particular instructor. Myself, I have been to close to 10 of Michael Janich's seminars, and a few other edged weapons events. My students get tired of knives!!! It depends on the instructor and their level of experience.

Mixed martial arts is not that UFC crap (sorry), it is people from different backgrounds coming together and having one common training goal. Learning from different experiences, and trying to help each other stay safe.

No, knife fighting is not that complex. As one instructor I had once said of sword fighting... "The basic objective of sword fighting is sticking the pointy end in the bad guy." As in all things, the magic is in the details.

Your martial art is never "everything to everybody" and as long as you keep an open mind and are willing to train outside the box then traditional martial arts can help your training. However if you never venture beyond your dojo, then it might well do more harm than good.

I often tell students. I cannot make them a fighter. It is a disposition born into us, and fueled by experience in life. I might give them skills to keep themselves safe, but if they are not a fighter, they never will be.

I guess I am saying that one needs to have a desire, a disposition, and a set of experience that will fuel a desire to train. In my martial arts experience we are taught that a student seeks out knowledge. If you possess the above, then you will seek out the training.

[Jimd]

I truly believe that my martial arts training saved my life at least once, possibly twice, when facing edged weapons attacks in the prison.

It gave me the footwork and knowledge of body mechanics that I needed to evade both attacks and come out without a scratch.

Beyond that, the same attributes also helped me avoid some injuries farther down the road on duty when attacked many more times by unarmed attackers.

Over the years, though, I have sustained a number of injuries from the plethora of altercations I've been involved in. It was inevitable that I'd get hurt, really, given the number of fights I've endured. But I guess it could have been a hell of a lot worse.

I know that knife-on-knife fights are said to be rare, but we've had some in the prison over the years.

Edged weapons combat is really a very simple affair, and just about never as complex as people make it out to be.

[Jordan]

And frankly, it is not fair to generalize martial arts, as each school is represented by a particular instructor. Myself, I have been to close to 10 of Michael Janich's seminars, and a few other edged weapons events. My students get tired of knives!!! It depends on the instructor and their level of experience.

That is a good point. In my post, when I spoke generally of martial arts... I was referring to a pretty wide field. It seemed unfair to pick on any one discipline, which might have a greater or lesser focus on edged weapon training. What I was thinking about specifically when I tossed "combative" and "martial art" around all willy nilly is approximate to the multi discipline approach that you, Doc, and myself all seem to have agreed upon as a good foundation for a personal system of physical self defense. Like Doc, my first REAL introduction to "knife fighting" was in the context of WWII combatives. Since then, I've branched out quite a bit, but the Fairbairn-Sykes-Applegate material is what I fall back on. Once again, you hit the nail on the head when you noted that combative systems have their basis in one traditional martial art or another (in the case of WWII combatives, much of it was derived from Fairbairn's judo, jujitsu, and karate background as I recall)... but pared down to rid itself of the ornamental portions of those martial arts, as it were.

[2edgesword]

I think the degree to which martial arts training crosses over to effective knife fighting depends on which martial arts training being considered. One extreme may be an martial art that has a heavy focus on kicking or throwing techniques. There may be fundamental issues like balance and stance that might cross over seamless while the upper body mechanics of these arts may have little to do with effective knife fighting skills. On the other end of the spectrum (as alluded to by Doc in the OP) there is a tremendous amount of crossover between Filipino stick fight arts and knife fighting.

In between these two extremes are other martial arts where the crossover falls somewhere in the middle.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Here is my take on this question:
Regardless of what Martial Arts Training you have had, the simple fact of the matter is that Martial Arts training relates to knife fighting in a unique way. What I'm talking about is the Dynamics of movement. In Martial Arts training you learn about these Dynamics. They are as follows: Speed, Coordination,Concentration, Rhythm and Timing, Breathing, Distancing, Kinesthetic Sense (the ability for Muscle to memorize movement), Balance and Centering weight, Hard and Soft Movement, (it is through the softness that you develop speed and through the hardness you develop power), Details of Form, Focus, Accuracy, Posture and Alignment, Ability to React,Foot Work, Linear and Rotary motions, Muscle tone, Stretch and Flexibilities, Fluidity, Stamina and Endurance, Left and Right Side Integration, Size of Movements, Energy Levels and Transitions. Combine all these elements together and you have what I call a formula for what Martial Arts Training can do to enhance your Knife Fighting abilities, once again regardless of the style and type of Martial Arts Training you receive.....it's all good....Doc:D

[markg]

I would agree, and in some ways that is what I meant by saying "it provides a context."

I sometimes get irritated by people who say that martial arts have no real world application. Most of the people who make that statement never leave the couch or the bag of Lays...

[chuck_roxas45]

Just one question. If you have no choice but to defend yourself against an aggressor using a knife, would you rather face one who has martial arts training or one without?

[Jordan]

Just one question. If you have no choice but to defend yourself against an aggressor using a knife, would you rather face one who has martial arts training or one without?

This might sound a bit odd... but most of the time I'd rather throw down with someone who has some martial arts training. Depending on the level of dedication to training that the student has towards the art, there is going to be a period of varying length during which he knows just enough to be dangerous to him/herself. Where an untrained knife fighter is going to keep it simple, try to get the pointy end of the knife as far into my gut as many times as possible in the shortest possible period of time... the semi-trained martial artist may make the mistake of trying to FIGHT instead of trying to WIN. Don't get me wrong, if someone has been training 30 hours a week for 20 years... I'll try the guy with no training. If nothing else, the level of physical conditioning that kind of training brings along is going to make things harder for me. But I am willing to bet that the bell curve applies... 5% of all martial artists falling into the "one free wushu lesson at the mall", 5% falling into "trained at a secret ninja school carved into a sequence of caverns below Detroit", and 90% falling into "3-5 hours a week of kickboxing, Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, Karate, MMA, etc. etc." I'd feel way more comfortable taking on the middle 90% over a crackhead with a rusty shiv. :-P

[Hannibal Lecter]

My Dear Friends,


This might sound a bit odd... but most of the time I'd rather throw down with someone who has some martial arts training.

Professionals are predictable, but the world is full of amateurs. :D

--------
Hannibal

[chuck_roxas45]

This might sound a bit odd... but most of the time I'd rather throw down with someone who has some martial arts training. Depending on the level of dedication to training that the student has towards the art, there is going to be a period of varying length during which he knows just enough to be dangerous to him/herself. Where an untrained knife fighter is going to keep it simple, try to get the pointy end of the knife as far into my gut as many times as possible in the shortest possible period of time... the semi-trained martial artist may make the mistake of trying to FIGHT instead of trying to WIN. Don't get me wrong, if someone has been training 30 hours a week for 20 years... I'll try the guy with no training. If nothing else, the level of physical conditioning that kind of training brings along is going to make things harder for me. But I am willing to bet that the bell curve applies... 5% of all martial artists falling into the "one free wushu lesson at the mall", 5% falling into "trained at a secret ninja school carved into a sequence of caverns below Detroit", and 90% falling into "3-5 hours a week of kickboxing, Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, Karate, MMA, etc. etc." I'd feel way more comfortable taking on the middle 90% over a crackhead with a rusty shiv. :-P


Agree on the ninja lessons 1/week. However, I was thinking that we were talking about serious martial arts training that has been a part of the life of the person.

[Blerv]

I think you really have to break down martial arts in this case by those that focus on the knife or bladed weapons in general. As a qualified friend once said, "many schools avoid it because they don't understand it...because it doesn't directly translate to most empty hand curriculum."

The bulk of sport arts do more ignoring and fostering false-confidence of the knife than training to defend against it. I feel it's even more rare to be trained in USING the knife from these arts.

All schools and teachers are different (thankfully), however in my 7 years of TKD I saw a rubber training knife about a dozen times. Mostly it was a game of trying not to get impaled in tag-fashion. Usually it was followed by a whimsical, "haha, you are dead."

Then again, most sport art schools don't even punch towards the face during sparring. It comes to no surprise that a community college Karate teacher showing his "Kerambit style" is going to be laughable by anyone with a modicum of actual training or at the least basic common sense.

[markg]

Actually 3-5 hours a week is a pretty good amount of training. In the scheme of things, 5 hours of physical training in anything, for a week is a pretty good amount. At least way above average.

My rule of thumb, the newer a student the more they should train. 3 days a week is pretty good. As you progress you really should look at 2 days a week. More than 3 days of training a week for a new student is too much. Either they get too beat up, or it is just too much.

It all depends on what you are doing. I study a martial art where you "fall down" or are "thrown down" a lot. I would put it in the 100-150 times an hour. At 40 minutes you are DONE. And at 45 years old, that is something I might consider once or twice a week at most. The older you get, the more your training should be in the form of teaching. After a one hour class, I cannot stand upright for about 4 hours.

I always say, get your tail end thrown around when you are young, do the throwing around when you are older.

Being in a mid-life transition, and dealing with a nagging knee injury, I am realizing your training changes as you age.

Sorry, that was drifting a bit from the point.

As one professor once told me about getting a PhD... "Getting a PhD is learning more and more about less and less... Till you know absolutely everything about nothing."

The goal of martial arts training should be that you get to the point you fight naturally. Yes, you are right, most students fail in actual fights, because they think, the force themselves into an unnatural fighting style. The point of your training should be that you train to fight naturally again. Until that point, you tend to be worse off than if you trained in nothing at all. At the end of the day, your training has become a natural response, you are a head of the curve.

[Jordan]

I am reminded of two quotes from Jeet Kune Do... neither of which I remember verbatim, so bear with me. The first is something along the lines of, "Before I studied martial arts a punch was a punch, a kick was a kick. After I studied, I learned that a punch was not a punch, a kick was not a kick. When I understood the art, a punch was a punch, a kick was a kick."

The second goes along the lines of, "I fear the man who has practiced one kick 1000 times more than the man who has practiced 1000 kicks one time."

He (Bruce Lee) also wrote extensively on having a combative mentality in a fight, concentrating on winning rather than preserving yourself from injury...

Point being, many (not all) martial arts concentrate on developing complexity in defense... whereas fighting tends to favor simplicity. Knife fighting, in particular, favors simplicity because an untrained combatant can end the knife fight in an instant with a lucky stab. By that I mean, I can take quite a few punches to the head... so keeping my guard up in a fist fight is important, but not ALL important. Depending on the size of the other guy's knife and just where he is trying to stick me... I probably can't handle getting stabbed very many times, so keeping the pointy end of the other guy's weapon away from my vitals is ALL important.

Some of you are defining martial arts practitioners as universally expert... I am aiming more for the middle of the road. If you happen to be an expert martial artist, then I don't want to fight you... not with a knife, not with a bat, not with my bare fists. That is why I like guns... yet another thing Bruce Lee and I agree on, my smoke wagon is the great equalizer, doesn't matter how much you train. That's irrelevant to the point... I digress.

If you are possessing of an AVERAGE amount of martial arts training (that 3-5 hours of MA training a week... which I agree Mark, to be a good amount of training, but not great... to maintain great physical conditioning I would say you'd be better off with twice that much exercise in a week, and to ingrain fight habits that will be useful, probably that much again in MA training). The average martial artist's (by that definition) ability will almost always be trumped by a desire to walk away from the fight... whichever side wants to WIN more, will.

What I'm getting at, I think :p, is that there is effectively no difference between schools of martial arts and their individual preferences towards or against edged weapons. To me, the primary benefit in martial arts training lies in the physical conditioning and tolerance to pain which that training develops in the committed student. There is a corollary between the effect of getting thrown down 100 times an hour and getting hit or cut. The reactions that you develop and the techniques you will learn in training will most likely disappear when you first see combat... but the body's gating mechanism's for pain and the physical endurance you develop from long sparring sessions will not. The mental acuity that you develop to maintain a critical perspective in competitive martial arts training will still be there in an actual fight... and that could be the difference between life and death when there are weapons involved. In short, before you study knife fighting, a slice is a slice and a stab is a stab... when you study knife fighting, a slice is more than a slice and a stab is more than a stab, when you understand knife fighting, a slice is just a slice, and a stab is just a stab.

[markg]

I would say that is spot on. The demands physically placed upon you develop one's "spirit" so to say. For example, a good ground fight simulates a lot of what you will face in a real fight... Not from the sports side, but from the fatigue, learning to relax when you want to panic. Those they are not the same, the demands of hard martial arts training prepares the mind and body for the rigors of fighting.

That being said, as you train and as you age, you need realize your needs and your training change. As one of my instructors has said, "train your age." After 15 years of training, my body does not have the capacities it did when I was younger. There are some things broken that will not get better. I have broken hands, shredded knees, nerve damage, shoulder pain. What you realize, is this is a new type of training. It is not fighting through the pain of hard training, it is fighting through the pain to even train. You find in the end, the goal is not to train harder, but to train smarter. This season is teaching me, that a lot of what I did, was not practical. Do I want to be rolling around and doing break falls on concrete? No. It is teaching me to understand the limitations of my body, and to face the limitations of the human body in general, and to fight within them. So the path has taught me to be smarter not just harder.

[Jimd]

Just to complicate matters....:D

I have to agree with what Doc said regarding the practice of martial arts giving most people the qualities that he listed (I won't repeat them all here).

I attribute exactly what he wrote to saving my life during a few of the encounters where I faced knives. Specifically, my ability to move and evade attacks was learned in the dojo; you see, back then, I was a rather small man. I simply couldn't go head-to-head with most other practitioners because they were bigger. So I learned to evade their attacks effectively. And it saved my ass in real life.

No specific techniques were responsible. No counter-knife maneuvers. Just evasion and good footwork.

With that said, I will throw this out there, because I have learned this firsthand, and to me, it is not my opinion, it is a fact: An individual's sheer will to continue is often the deciding factor in combat.

Sometimes, people simply refuse to go down or to quit. At times, there's no physical reason explaining why they were able to keep going. But they do anyway.

Two incidents jump into my mind when I say what I said above, and both occurred when I was on duty in the prison:

1. The first is a man I saw stabbed well over a dozen times. He continued to fight until his body gave up. His willpower kept him going for a couple of minutes until he literally collapsed and died right in front of me due to blood loss. Something to keep in mind in the event we ever have to shoot or stab an attacker - they don't always magically go down as expected.

2. The next incident involved an inmate attacking a fellow officer. It was a furious fight and the inmate was very large. For about the first minute, it was the three of us, then backup arrived. The man continued fighting, despite his wounds, even when over a dozen officers were trying to subdue him. When the fight was over, I looked around and observed that there was blood dripping from the windows of the corridor in the prison, and it was all the way across the corridor on the floor (the corridor is about five yards wide), and dripping from the bulletin board across the corridor.

The inmate simply refused to stay down, even after he'd absorbed some horrific blows. By the end of it, we were all injured and needed a trip to the hospital. The injuries I sustained that day, over a decade ago, still pain me at times.

Never, ever, underestimate an individual who attacks you, regardless of his training or lack thereof. Because you may just have no idea who you're dealing with.

[dialex]

Unfortunately, I am far under the level of my forespeakers and my martial arts experience never went past the amateur stage, so what I'll say is more of common sense than from a technical (so to speak) point of view.
First, martial arts training (of any kind) is good in a knife fight. It teaches you how to block an arm, force a joint, where to hit aso. so the atacker will drop the knife and hopefully give up the fight.
Second, martial arts training (of any kind) is bad in a knife fight. I'd say it's greatest danger is the false confidence it gives, making you think that if you know a number of standard moves you can successfully deal with any knife threat.
I used to illustrate this a couple times at the self defense courses at the police school where I work, by simulating an attack with the rubber knife - a slashing motion going diagonally from up right to down left (or from two o'clock to seven if you like), then, half turning the body so it will mask the knife, switching the knife fro the right hand to the left one, then continuing the attack with the right arm, like the knife is still there. All this is done in slow motion, so the cadet grabs the arm, blocks the joint - except that it's useless. When they see the rubber knife in the other hand, pressing his ribs, throat, inner thigh (depending of the position, obviosuly), the reaction usually is "Hey, you're not supposed to do that!" or in some cases "This never happes in a knife fight" :rolleyes:
It's just an example to show that knife fight is tricky. A hit from a knife can come from anywhere, it can be hard or soft (both can be efficient), it doesn't necessary have to aim to vital organs like you see in the movies - repeated cuts over the fists and forearms may incapacitate someone, although it takes more time and makes a lot of mess.
It can be a blade so small you can't even see in the first place, but which can inflict major damage (for instance prostitutes here may have a piece of razor blade glued on the index fingernail, then painted with nail polish so it's hardly noticeable - you realize a caress on you neck may be the last thing you'll ever feel - and you don't even expect it).
That's why if I were in the position of giving any advice, I'd say: Don't play! Be alert and very afraid. The human body has way too many targets for a knife to afford to be too exposed due to your overconfidence in your fighting skills.
It takes practice to break bricks with you bare hand, but it needs no classes to cut with a knife.

[2edgesword]

I think a summary of the answers is that all martial arts training provides some benefit with respect to knife fight (some disciplines more then others) and that in many cases it comes down to the individual's willingness to continue to fight and survive that will be the determining factor.

Next step, beyond the fundamentals of balance, base, movement, speed, agility, etc. there are elements of knife fighting that have more in comment with particular styles of martial arts then to others. Assuming everything mentioned above being equal, what MA styles are most applicable to knife fighting?

Note, we're all grown-ups here. This question ins't aske to open a platform for bashing but for having educational discussion.

Pick a MA and lets discuss how the skills learned beyond the things mentioned (balance, footwork, etc.) tansfer to knife fighting?

What about boxing?

One element of boxing is learning to parry an incoming jab. This skill can be useful in deflecting an incoming weapon.

[SolidState]

What about boxing?

One element of boxing is learning to parry an incoming jab. This skill can be useful in deflecting an incoming weapon.

It really depends. Boxing is great for timing, but the way you parry a jab and the way you parry a knife can be very different unless you train to do both the same (and for a blade). You have to be a lot more worried about your forearms when you parry knives, so the standard boxing cross parry is far less effective. You almost want more of a karate-style block using the boney edge with a knife. You can get away with inside wrist parries in boxing, but you really don't want that against a knife.

The method is roughly the same for a parry but pugilism, in general, has little in common with a knife fight. Pugilists are trained not to have to look for backhands, arteries, muscular connections, and a variety of other issues that come up in knife fights. I'm not saying that the distancing and footwork don't help. It's just different children of the same father if you get what I'm saying.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Well I think that all MA have merit in how they translate to knife fighting....you bring up boxing for instance. I don't know how a boxer might do wielding a Rock Salt but I will tell you this...if he had a pair of push daggers in his fists...I'd run like hell!....."what MA styles are most applicable to knife fighting?" (Quote) I really think the question is what knives suit which Martial Arts best for a knife fight.....Doc:D

[Jimd]

Another angle to consider (hey, I gotta play devil's advocate, y'know!):

The fortitude of the person(s) involved seems to play a more important role than their training (note: I'm not trying to say training is bad or worthless here).

I've witnessed untrained individuals perform some amazing feats during hand to hand combat. Simple, gritty determination and sheer brute force are often more than enough to prevail. Sometimes these elements are enough to overpower polished techniques.

To me, it's really about the person, rather than the style of martial art or weapon they happen to be wielding. People can be extremely well-trained and yet fall apart when the defecation hits the blades of the ventilation unit.

Again, I'm not saying training is a bad thing; I always advocate it. Just some thoughts to bear in mind.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Another angle to consider (hey, I gotta play devil's advocate, y'know!):

The fortitude of the person(s) involved seems to play a more important role than their training (note: I'm not trying to say training is bad or worthless here).

I've witnessed untrained individuals perform some amazing feats during hand to hand combat. Simple, gritty determination and sheer brute force are often more than enough to prevail. Sometimes these elements are enough to overpower polished techniques.

To me, it's really about the person, rather than the style of martial art or weapon they happen to be wielding. People can be extremely well-trained and yet fall apart when the defecation hits the blades of the ventilation unit.

Again, I'm not saying training is a bad thing; I always advocate it. Just some thoughts to bear in mind.

Jim is right....Mindset is everything!....Doc:D

[SolidState]

Another angle to consider (hey, I gotta play devil's advocate, y'know!):

The fortitude of the person(s) involved seems to play a more important role than their training

That is really the most important point. You have to be completely comfortable with mortality and fatality. Sadly, most people these days couldn't even kill their own food let alone an attacker. The mindset has even been put into legislation.

I was teaching my girlfriend some basic knifework. I taught her some pass-block maneuvers in which you slice the forearm flexors and follow with a stab to the armpit. She did the maneuvers very capably, but then she asked why she was doing the motions as planned and I told her that it is the quickest path to artery and lung from that angle and she seemed upset. I went and bought her pepper spray later that day because knives aren't for her.

Luckily, we live in a time with options... like pepper spray and a knife.

[MountainManJim]

Jim is right....Mindset is everything!....Doc:D

Ah but, doesn't training help to develop one's mindset. After some training you start to see targets on people. Before you know it you are aiming for the targets. You also get used to physical aspects of the fight ... reactions start to form.

The only problem I see with the training is that your reactions getting you to a certain point and them reality sets in and then you freeze. Ouch.

Jim (another Jim not JimD)

[Dr. Snubnose]

Ah but, doesn't training help to develop one's mindset. After some training you start to see targets on people. Before you know it you are aiming for the targets. You also get used to physical aspects of the fight ... reactions start to form.

The only problem I see with the training is that your reactions getting you to a certain point and them reality sets in and then you freeze. Ouch.

Jim (another Jim not JimD)

Jim, My experience with students and others who study Martial Arts is the only reason people freeze is because they panic instead of recognizing that fear is their friend and good martial arts training should teach students how to use that fear to muster all of their strength to defeat their opponents. If they have not learned that then they need to find better teachers....Doc:D

[MountainManJim]

Doc,

My thought wasn't so much fear but, the shock of what you are doing. At some point you realize, "Hey, I'm not in the dojo. I'm actually going to injure/kill this guy."

I know I would get to that point and would need to follow through with my defense. I train with a defense only art. At some point I might need to leave that training and dispatch an attacker. And, yes fear would probably be the emotion that pushes me to that point. And, that is the plus side of fear ... selfpreservation.

Jim

[Blerv]

This is merely hearsay from friends who train but varying force seems to be a solid trait many of them share.

They spare easy, they spare without pads relatively hard, then go harder with gear on. Every one of them punches towards the head and have been hit before.

Train soft and slow and force doesn't compute properly. Train hard and rugged and technique becomes muddled manhandling.

Personally...I came from a "we grab but don't punch at the face" TKD school. Basically somewhere between non-contact point and soft-contact pads. A petting zoo if you will. :p

It's later in life you wish someone socked you once or twice or at least tried to gut you with a plastic knife. Maybe we wouldn't have practiced our jump or spin kicks as much :).

[Jimd]

Freezing comes from the mind being overloaded, and computing through the different options that one has. It can also be simply from fear to act.

Ever hear of "Paralysis by Analysis"? The mind simply cannot compute correctly though the adrenal dump. Been there myself. It sucked.

Training MIGHT build mindset, but not necessarily. Depends on how you train.

SolidState, be aware that Pepper Spray is not a magic concoction that drops everyone. I've seen it fail on occasion, and other failures have been well-documented. At times, it merely pisses off an attacker. You might want to make certain your lady friend realizes that reality.

[SolidState]

Oh, I realize pepper spray is almost worthless, but it is something. I used to teach SD and have taken pepper spray to the face a few times while demonstrating that it does not stop an attacker, only disorients. Our SD school had full contact sparring to get women past the initial shock aspect of defending themselves, so a woman would blast me with pepper spray as I attacked. Most often I would be able to get her to the ground after being shot unless she was fast on foot.

Too many schools pretend self defense is like ballroom dancing. Unless you're being grabbed and shaken with force, you're not doing a lot more than dancing. When you really feel it, you learn to fight through the adrenaline dump. It amazed me that about 70% of people would freeze completely when actually attacked, even after spending an hour practicing how to deal with the exact same attack at slow speed and reduced force.

The pepper spray was a compromise from bear mace. She keeps a knife too, but rarely carries either. I'm in the process of arranging some volunteer time for her with a victim rehab group so that she can get a better understanding of the psychological effects of being unprepared to defend oneself. She really doesn't understand the statistics of crime and her probabilities of becoming a victim. I may be oversensitive to that same set of stats.

[Visual Articulation]

My martial arts background in the few forms i began to study all stayed in the infantile stage. however the one thing i learned from martial arts, wrestling, and 10 years of boxing is like the real estate market , location ., location , location. the understanding of human anatomy allows one to leverage the use of all implements of war in combat scenarios. I must say it was also compounded through the anatomy studies i was require4d to do as an artist! Don't underestimate anyone especially a classically trained artist!... lol