Grip, and metal hilts.

[Carlos]

I've noted a great number of complaints about the slippery nature of smooth metal handles -- especially stainless steel, and the occassional use of some manufacturers of rubber inserts (which have durability issues) to aid grip.



Now my understanding (perhaps mistaken) is that metal scales (steel, ti, and al) are die-stamped in a press. If this is the case, why isn't checkering used for texture (like the checkering used on rifle stocks)?



Checkering wouldn't wear out or melt or dissolve the way rubber inserts do, and would provide more positive grip that roughened metal scales.



Would it create additional tooling costs or manufacturing operations?



Any thoughts?

[tique]

From my limited experience working in a machine shop, I would say it would add to both cost and processes. I could be wrong on this, and if I am I hope that someone corrects me. I don't know of any stamping procedure to put a checkered finish on a material, but I also don't believe we ever did a checkered flat surface while I was there. We did a lot of defense work, but I never saw an external flat surface with anything less than a 125 surface finish on it, unless it was a knob that was knurled for grip.

It would appear to me that checkering would have to be cut into the material, otherwise it would put a whole new set of stresses into the material from the compression, making it less stable and possibly not as desireable as a smooth surface without the stresses in it.

[Carlos]

Thanks for the lucid explanation.

Perhaps machined checkering (depending upon the depth) might also require a thicker scale to be used to maintain strength and rigidity. But I still wonder if limited checkering (in the center of the scale, or in a couple of diagonal bands across the scale) might be a feasable for a production knife hilt.

[tique]

I would guess that machined checkering might require a slightly thicker scale, but I'm guessing that it wouldn't be all that much. Again, that all goes back to the depth.

I know that I would be a lot more likely to buy a knife with a metal handle, be it SS, Al, Ti, or whatever else you can come up with, if there were some kind of a pattern on it for grip. Currently, this is one reason I stick to mainly G-10 for my heavy use knives.

If the handles are finished with CNC, then it probably wouldn't take a lot more work to add a couple shallow lines on them. It would just take an adjustment to the program, and another endmill, depending on the material, this would add very little to the manufacturing time. It might require the aformentioned thicker scale material, but that would be dependent on several factors. However, there would be an added amount of time required to deburr each scale, I don't know how Sal has this done, but the extra time in the machining center, and the added deburr time would add to the cost a small amount, I think it would be worth it. We have to remember that a small amount of time added to a single scale isn't much, but if you consider that on a production line they run a whole lot of parts at once, it can add a good deal of time to each run.

[Carlos]

Yes, I was thinking that you wouldn't have to checker the entire scale to get most of the benefits of checkering. I suppose that a couple of checkered stripes across the handle would do as well. But with all the extra manufacturing operations in a large run of knives . . . I guess this explains why G10 is the king of functional/hard-use handle scales at the moment.

[mundele]

Several companies bead blast metal handles to give them texture. I've seen this with aluminum particularly, where it is bead blasted and then anodized. I dont think it's as slippery (although it is still more slippery than G10 or rubber inserts) and it looks nice too... Bead blasted steel tends to rust REALLY easily, BTW...

--Matt

[sal]

We use hardenable steel in our handles (similar to what some competitors use in their blades). Stamping a texture gets difficult. As Tique mentioned, machining or lazer would probably be the best and perhaps the only ways at this time to do this.

We've checkered aluminum and that worked well, but time on the CNC does get expensive.

My current leaning is towards lighter weights, which limits steel.

It's also possible to make textures too aggressive and they tear up pockets and hands so an "ideal" amount of texture is also on the table.

sal

[Carlos]

Have you tried chekering titanium? I expect that the ATR will only be the first of a long line of integral compression lock (ICL) knives. While it has the indexing holes that will probably aid grip in general, I suppose the ICL knives to follow might benefit from limited checkering.

[Carlos]

I was playing with my Wegner when I realized that checkering for a metal handle of non-ambidextrous knives (linerlocks, compression locks) would only be needed on the non-clip side in the same way that you would only put G10 Shell inserts on the non-clip side.

So would machining checkering only onto the middle part of one scale be a feasable feature for some higher-end knives?

Edited by - Carlos on 1/17/2001 8:16:35 PM

[tique]

Carlos, I agree that the checkering would only need to be done on one side of the blade to accomidate right handed usage. I don't see that as much of a problem either as the vast majority of knives are righty friendly only. I don't know if Sal would think it to be a possiblity, but I know it would be a welcome improvement as far as I am concerned. I currently do not own any carry knives with metal handles due to the fact that they are harder to grip when wet/covered in solvent/etc. and therefore I do not trust them. I do, however, like the fact that they can sometimes make a knife more rigid so they do have thier purpose as long as there is a texture or inlay. I think a textured handle would increase sales even if there was a small price increase to go along with it. I know I would buy more of them<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

[AncientSUL]

Hello Sal,Carlos,Tique

For a long time user of the Spydie Stainless steel handled pocket knives I must say some type of checking or grooves would be welcome addition. But the cost. First, the handle scale would need to be at least 1/2 to a full scale thickness to do this. You are taking away material, they have to start with a thicker piece of steel, titatium to do this. Cost of CAD, CNC, tooling, man power, material. So it would not be cost effective. It is not a bad idea but an expensive one. Now what about adding to the handle a strip of checked g=10 down the middle of the steel handle or just an overlay on the scale. Many knife makers do this to add a nicer look and grip to the knife. Something like the Viele model but not polished. And by using g-10 or CF one would be able to mill indents,slot,grooves to improve grip and the looks. That would be more effective. Just another thought.

Liong

[sal]

Liong. I believe that the overlay concept would be the most cost effective. We've tried checkering the stainless. It's opissible, but expensive and difficult to dtermine exactly how &quot;rough&quot; the texture needs to be.

Most of us here seem to prefer the lighter weights. Would kraton be prefered over an overlay? It is certainly lighter.

sal

[tique]

Well, I'm not picky about how light my knife is, as a matter of fact, I like them a bit heavy, with a few exceptions, especially if they are a smaller piece. I would be happy with any kind of texture/overlay/inlay/whatever else you can do to make a stainless handled knife grip better. I like the properties it can lend to a knife, but I don't like the fact that it becomes quite slippery very easily.

[Carlos]

Kraton inserts are what keep me away from Microtech's knives. Kraton is sort of like anti-G10: Highly vulnerable to solvents, temperature, and it wears down over time with regular use. Perhaps there is a more durable high-traction material waiting to be discovered.

How about an FRN insert with the &quot;Volcano&quot; grip pattern molded in?

Would checkering be feasable for Al or Ti, on higher-end models?

Edited by - Carlos on 1/18/2001 4:29:57 PM

[Marc]

One of the interesting things about this forum is how many times I read things other people have written, and see exactly what I've been thinking. I couldn't agree more with Carlos' assesment of Kraton. I have also found volcano grip FRN to be very practical even if it is somewhat industrial looking. The overlay idea is worth considering. It is a real challenge to make someting both practical and astetically interesting.

Marc

[bob]

A way I have found to to make the stainless handle models less slick is to use grip tape on the non-clip side and a strip on the clip. The company 3M makes a variety of different textures from super grippy sandpaper to almost a smooth, rubbery finish. All of the sandpaper grits tore my pockets up after several hours so I switched to a white rubber grip tape or a little rougher grey rubber tape. I have used the tape on a stainless Police, Worker, and Dragonfly; no matter how wet or slimy the knives got the tape did not come off. The most extreme use so far has been skinning out a deer with the Dragonfly. With blood all over, my hand never slipped. The blood also washed off the white grip tape easily because 3M designed it for better purchase on floors. Also the tape is inexpensive and easily replaceable. Maybe Spyderco could include grip tape inserts in its catalog for those who prefer their knives with a heavy steel grip and use their knives around water a lot.
Bob

[sal]

Thanx Bob. We'll chase down those textures for study.

sal

[pbrand]

what about engraving. the handle material wouldn't have to be any thicker and you could probably find a cnc engraver that would do the job.i don't know if this would give enough texture ,but i'm sure you could control the depth of the engraving to a certain degree and you could use any kind of logo or design you wanted.

pbrand

[LethalWeapon]

This is a very interesting subject. I echo Marc's thoughts regarding the likeminded thinking often found on the forums. BTW, I have a SS Harpy and have found that the drying vent cut into the handle actually facilitates a better grip on it! And 1MT, I prefer a heavier knife myself, so I like a SS scaled knife slippery or not.

[Paul D.]

This thread from Bladeforums may help some of you all that would like to have some checkering added to your knives. It even has a picture of a stainless Native that was done. The contact information for the person that did the work is towards the bottom of the original post.

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum64/HTML/001319.html

I tried to make it a link, but I guess the UBB codes can't be used here.

Hope this helps,
Paul

Edited by - Paul D. on 3/23/2001 10:59:16 AM