The era of the city knife. [Archive]

Carlos

01-21-2001, 12:00 AM

Well, for better or for worse we appear to be entering a brave new world of smaller knives, both for legal reasons and for reasons of social acceptability in increasingly knife-hostile working environments. The problem before us then is how do we keep most of the functionality of our larger 3.5" to 4" blade knives in knives with 2" or 2.5" blades.

Designing a good small knife is probably far more difficult than designing a large one -- like trying to build a laptop with all of the power and functionality of a desktop workstation. A few thoughts on improving functionality of smaller "city" knives:

1. Wider blades: Most small knives have rather narrow blades, which makes it more difficult to make straight cuts, and which have to use very thin stock to maintain good edge geometry. Spyderco of course is already doing the best job of wide blades on small knives (especially for 3" blades), but there is always room for evolution. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

2. Big opening holes: Along with the wider blade, short-bladed knives should have the same big opening holes of larger knives. This may be even more important considering that smaller knives have less grip overall.

3. Longer and wider handles: Even if blades are shorter, the size of the human hand doesn't change. With very short handles I find that there is a big loss of leverage, and tough cutting tasks quickly fatique the hand gripping the knife. While I think that handles should always be thin (~10mm) I think the handles of smaller knives should be closer to the width of larger knives -- narrow handles are often difficult to grip for fast one-hand opening. Improved ergonomic shapes can make up some for lack of width.

Any thoughts on this subject?

tique

01-21-2001, 03:28 AM

Carlos,

I think you make a very good point. I find it very unfortunate that this trend is happening, but it appears to be the next step that we have to evolve/conform to.

I agree that it would be harder to design a smaller knife, especially if you want to target a group of people who are used to carrying knives the size of the Starmate, Military, and Wegner, and have them buying blades that are half as long.

To address your points:
1. Wider blades are a must. They have to be maintained to accomodate the larger opening holes we are accustomed to(cobra hood might change this thought a bit though). Also for your aformentioned geometry reasons. I guess we could stick with full flat grinds and still be in good shape as far as geometry is concerned if need be though.

2. I am not sure that the full size holes are necessary, take the Viele for example, that hole isn't terribly large, but it functions in a most excellent fashion. But not all designs will be that comfortable, and I'm sure that not everyone holds my opinion, so it might be a case of larger holes for easier opening on the majority of models.

3. For example the Gunting. I am becoming a fan of this knife. When I first saw it, I though "Damn, that thing is UGLY," but now the design is beginning to appeal to me and I might just have to pick one up. I am a big fan of relatively thick handles(have handled knives up to 14mm that are comfortable), but thinner ones like you mention are good also as long as they don't drop under the 10mm range. I do like the idea of the larger handle on smaller blade, this seems to be a good functional design angle to take. I think some handle size would come with wider blades though, so that might cover that area.

Tom Percy

01-22-2001, 11:01 AM

While some of us worry about what others may think, we continue to carry more what we like due to many personal preferences.
Although I have carried an Endura every day for the past many years(about 10 I think), I have just purchased a C52P Calypso due to the lack of availibility of the New Endura. This purchase was more of "I need a replacement for daily carry" purchase because the clip of the old Endura is pretty well sprung and won't stay in my pocked.
Anyway to cut it short, the C52P is a heck of a knife ! It seems to incorporate a lot of the features that I like in the original Endura in a smaller package. Although the blade shape is not the same, its overall porportions are as close to perfect as I like it. I do prefer the Hollow Grind on the C52P to the flat grind on the Micarta version.
I will be buying a couple more larger knives, but I think this is probably more to where the designs should be heading for daily carry in the city.

Tom Percy

01-22-2001, 11:02 AM

Tom Percy

01-22-2001, 11:03 AM

Edited by - tom percy on 1/23/2001 7:30:54 AM

Tom Percy

01-22-2001, 11:03 AM

Edited by - tom percy on 1/23/2001 7:29:55 AM

sal

01-22-2001, 01:24 PM

Hi Tom. Welcome to the Spyderco forum. I see you fell into the "multiple post" trap that all of us have been vicitm to. Thanx for the kind words on the Capypso jr. design

Why is it that you prefer the hollow grind?

Carlos. I agree with all points. the "No Name" model is 2.5" and at least one variation will be a full flat (edge to spine) wide cutting edge. The handle is designed to "fit" any hand. Handle is 10mm thick (not including the left/right tip up clip). Hole is 14mm.

sal

Clay Kesting

01-22-2001, 10:43 PM

Carlos, I think you have summed up the "city knife" very well. I usually don't pay much attention to our carry laws (no knives in a public place or school, without a lawful excuse) as I feel my age and appearance give me some immunity. However I did feel more comfortable going out for dinner in the city with my new Navigator in my pocket rather than my usual carry (Calypso Jr). I think the most officious young constable would have a hard time making a case for confiscating something so innocuous looking. The point about the large opening hole is well taken. The Navigator's hole is larger than the Calypso and makes the blade very easy to deploy.

Sal, just when I thought I wouldn't need to buy another knife for a while, you have to mention that the "knife with no name" (henceforth referred to as the KWNM <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>) may have a flat ground blade. I've been carrying my Calypso Jrs. (Ltwt and Micarta) all summer and have become a <b>BIG </b> fan of flat ground blades. The Calypsos have replaced my BF Native as my daily carry, that is until my Chinese Folder arrives <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>. BTW Carlos congratultions on getting hold of yours, mine should arrive in the next few days.

Clay

Living your life is a task so difficult, it has never been attempted before.

Carlos

01-22-2001, 11:09 PM

Thanks Clay, I was expecting that I would have to wait for the second production run to get a Chinese folder. It has ousted my old Bob "T" folder from my pocket. It was definitely worth the wait (though my wait was shorter than yours).

Sal,

I blew up the illicit photo of the "no name" model to actual size, and akin to the Chinese Utility it is a big knife for its blade length. The CU itself is a great example of packing more punch into a smaller package -- especially if you compare to the much more anemic 3" blade folders that are out there. Big 12mm hole, ergo handle shape, strong blade stock with continuous distal taper and edge to spine flat grind for optimal cutting geometry. And with its premium steel it is still shaving sharp after making mince meat of the box it was shipped in. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

"Small" knives can be just as serious as big ones if they are designed seriously with utility in mind.

Tom Percy

01-23-2001, 05:26 AM

Thanks Sal.

I have found when cutting some thicker material that the hollow grind dosn't bind as badly as the flat grind (as minor as it may be). Mabe it's just me, but now that I have the Calypso Jr in both Flat grind and Hollow grind (ans well as the Calypso), I find it's not only the visual appeal to the geometry of the hollow grind that appeals to my tastes.

What ever the blade shape, I use them all.

Edited by - tom percy on
1/23/2001 7:26:55 AM

Edited by - tom percy on 1/23/2001 7:32:31 AM

Tom Percy

01-23-2001, 05:35 AM

Edited by - tom percy on 1/23/2001 7:34:02 AM

Carlos

01-23-2001, 07:04 AM

Tom, do you see the three icons above each message? Well the one on the right with the magnifying glass is the edit function. You can go back at any time and fix spelling errors. You can also go back and delete the text of the extra "double posts."

Back on topic: I am thinking that the biggest challenge to a knife designer must be the under 2" knives like the Toad and Mouse. Any thoughts on improving this class of knives? Just how much performance can be expected from them?

sal

01-23-2001, 01:28 PM

Hi Carlos. Under 2" is difficult for me. I think because I've come to realize that purchase is important. The Navigator design is probably my best in the 2" area (it's a tad over 2&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> because I've managed to keep a fair degree of purchase employing a choil and a "Pinky" place at the rear. The "Meerkat" is a "Navigator" pattern. The Ladybug is much smaller, but purchase is provided by the keys on the keyring that it's attached to?

The KWNM (What do you think of "Salsa&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> is about 2.5" but with the same challenge...fit any hand size ergonomically for efficient useage, be politically correct anywhere, be large enough to be a "real" handful of knife and still retain light weight.

Tom, I think the flat grind is providing more friction in the kurf (sp?) whereas the "shoulder" of the hollow grind offers less. This is against the theory that a large flat grind cuts more effectively. Try the same test on food. It would be interesting to observe if the same holds true.

sal

Hojo

01-23-2001, 01:59 PM

Mouse, to me, is about the perfect ~2 inch knife I feel comfortable carrying. I forgot to mention it on handle thickness thread, but it is my usual work carry since anything larger would not be acceptable(I'm a teacher). One area that I would like to see an improvement/change in small knives like Mouse or Toad is their handle size. As Carlos mentioned, it would be great if the handles of small knives mirrored that of larger knives. Say blade length of 2 inch with handle length like that on Calypso Jr. or Standard?(or bigger)

BTW, Navigator is probably going to replace or at least challenge Mouse once I have it later this week.

Haj

mundele

01-23-2001, 03:35 PM

I hate to disrupt the conversation to ask for a pic of the "KWNM" but I cannot resist. Is there a picture available somewhere, or could you describe the blade shape, handle shape and handle materials for me?
Just to remain "on topic" I also agree that smaller knives are much more acceptable to "sheeple". I had a coworker gasp in horror as I used my plain-edge worker to cut something. Her reaction was a bit extreme, but the sentiments are there. I would not carry a knife larger than 3" to work, but then again, I prefer small to medium sized knives.

--Matt

Clay Kesting

01-23-2001, 04:07 PM

Sal,

I like the sound of "Salsa", I think it's going to be a pretty hot and spicey knife by the sound of it <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.

Clay

Living your life is a task so difficult, it has never been attempted before.

Edited by - Clay Kesting on 1/25/2001 4:43:14 AM

Carlos

01-23-2001, 11:21 PM

What do you guys think about colour as an element of city knife design? Would making the handles colours like blue or green reduce the perceived threat, vs. black or grey handles?

(I am going to try showing my C65 to non-knifenuts to gather their impressions.)

Matt,

KWNM, Codename: "Salsa" is essentially a larger sibling of the Navigator/Pegasus/Meerkat family. As according to Sal's post above, with a 2.5" blade and 14mm opening hole. In a different thread Sal has mentioned that it will possibly be in two handle variants: Steel with integral compression lock, and/or aluminum with nested compression lock.

Edited by - Carlos on 1/24/2001 3:53:38 AM

Clay Kesting

01-24-2001, 03:25 AM

I think that colour is an important consideration for the "city knife". I have found that my blue BF Native does not attract as much adverse comment as I would have expected given that it has a fairly aggressive blade shape. I'm still hoping to see a burgundy Calypso Ltwt like the prototype shown at Blade <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>. However colour is not the only factor as I don't think that polished black micarta gives the same impression as textured black G10. Also the overall design of the knife also influences people's reaction. For instance I think that the Native would be seen as more menacing then the Calypso Jr even although the blade lengths are fairly similar. What I would really like to see is a Spydie with bolsters and wood or bone (white micarta would do) scales, something like my Moki Evrina but with a hole. Now that would be a "city knife" <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.

Clay

Living your life is a task so difficult, it has never been attempted before.

Tom Percy

01-24-2001, 08:57 AM

If we are going to limit ouselves to shorter size for city carry, I have concidered the following, as to what would be most usefull to me:
Blade Length: 2 1/2"
Blade Size: I would prefer a blade thickness from 7/64" to 1/8".
Blade Style: I prefer the modified clip sytle such as Delica, Endura.
Opening Hole: 7/16
Handle: with the shorter handle, I like the opened blade to be part of the handle. With this I mean the rear portion of the tang and the front of the handle becomes a finger groove (as in the native and Calypso),
Handle Material: That could be any of the popular material. This would probably depend on what an individual would like to spend. I enjoy something a bit more 'dressy' around the city such as Micarta, Stainess, but it could also be FRN, Almite, or G10.

Edited by - tom percy on 1/24/2001 8:59:49 AM

sal

01-24-2001, 05:21 PM

Sounds like Tom wants a "Salsa".

I'm currently planning the anodized versions in Blue, green and a purple. With a design in the handle. One version in Titan with the integral compression lock.

sal

dac

01-24-2001, 05:32 PM

I don't know if it would qualify as a "city knife" but the Gunting could serve as the foundation of a very comfortable short bladed knife. I would like to see a knife with the same length as the Gunting (27/8&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> or maybe 2.5"but without the sharp point on top for opening or self defense; the blade should also be wide like the Gunting blade to maximize the effectiveness of its short length. The handle could also be bit short, say 4.5" instead of 5". That would give the knife an overall length of 7 3/8" which would mean that it has a very comfortable handle to go with a blade that would be legal in most areas of the world where locking folders are allowed. Of course, I would like to see the G-10 scales and compression lock retained. The only other change would be a repositioning of the Gunting clip. My guess is that this would not take a lot of retooling. Does it sound reasonable Sal?

mundele

01-24-2001, 06:40 PM

Speaking of knife colors, I, for one, would love to see more knives with colored handles, especially the FRN models. How costly is it to produce FRN knives in different colors?

--Matt

mundele

01-24-2001, 06:40 PM

oops

Edited by - Mundele on 1/24/2001 6:41:09 PM

Clay Kesting

01-25-2001, 03:20 AM

"I'm currently planning the anodized versions in Blue, green and a purple. With a design in the handle. One version in Titan with the integral compression lock."

Yes indeed this Salsa is going to be hot and spicey, I can hardly wait. Sal, are there going to be any other differences between the versions other than the scales? I recall you saying that one variation will have a flat ground blade.

Clay

Living your life is a task so difficult, it has never been attempted before.

Edited by - Clay Kesting on 1/25/2001 4:45:43 AM

Tom Percy

01-25-2001, 04:32 AM

Sal, if a "Salsa" is what I want, it would be nice to see one. Gotta make purchase plans, and hopefully they will be readily available in Canada.

sal

01-25-2001, 08:07 PM

Hi Dac. anything is possible, but customs. How would you reposition the clip?

FRN colors only require about 500 pieces. The problem is in inventory and promotion for dealers and distributors.

Full flat grinds are not as popular as hollows or combinations with swedges. At this time, I haven't decided the other grinds, but I plan to use a full flat on the Titan version.

sal

tique

01-25-2001, 08:36 PM

full flat grind Ti Salsa with an integral compression lock

Sal, you know exactly how to get into my wallet. I'll be all over that one. It would be absolutely perfect if you put a LH/RH clip on it so I could carry either side.

Is there a blade steel choice yet? I think VG-10 would be wonderful on the colored ones and <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>S90V<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> on the Ti. Might be a little pricey, but would be perfect for the aficionado. Maybe at least a sprint run in it for us<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Clay Kesting

01-25-2001, 09:08 PM

Thanks for the info Sal. I for one will be following the evolution of the Salsa with much interest <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.

Take care,

Clay

Living your life is a task so difficult, it has never been attempted before.

Carlos

01-26-2001, 07:56 AM

Sal,

About the anodized Salsa, what kind of design were you thinking of putting on the handle-- some kind of inlay/insert or medallion, or as part of the anodizing?

Tom Percy

01-26-2001, 12:25 PM

Sal,

What is your expected release date of the Salsa ?

(I don;t mean to make this into a "Salsa" topic from the original thread, but this sounds too good to let go?

dac

01-26-2001, 02:36 PM

Sal, I would like to see the clip on the Gunting placed near the top of the handle and slightly to the left. That would leave the screw open to adjustment without removing the clip. The other alternative would be installing a clip likt that on the Chinook, Military, or Starmate. That way this utility version of the Gunting would ride much lower in the pocket. On second thought, there is no need to make the handle any shorter, just remove the ridge on the top of the blade and reposition the clip and the Gunting would be a great short bladed uitlity knife for people with big hands.

sal

01-26-2001, 02:39 PM

Hey Tique. Yes, Left/right tip up clip. With "Cobra hood".

Carlos. I was planning on doing something with the anodizing to create color change. However, once the pattern is refined and accepted, any combination is possible.

Tom. Late summer is the plan.

The only pic I can offer is the one that Knifecenter took at the SHOT show. Though we didn't want him to take the pic, it's the only pic out there. Carlos reproduced it for Bladeforums. I felt that the bladeforums forum was still a little too public for the model. Fewer people here. We can't post photos here yet.

sal

Carlos

01-27-2001, 05:25 AM

Hi Sal,

Sounds interesting. Would you also be able to create those "splash" effects as well?

BTW, if you want the aluminum Salsa to have a hollow-ground blade for more eye-candy appeal than the Ti version, then might I suggest two of your previous blade patterns as points to start from:

1. The Blackhawk -- clip point bowie's are always popular it seems, though people were confused by this one due to the handle shape. This blade type, shortened slightly modified for Salsa, might deserve a second chance.

2. The Worker -- a wider and shorter version of this blade pattern with a higher hollow-grind might give great performace, while appealing to those who don't get flat-grinds. You could even call it "Worker 2." <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Clay,

Since you brought up the "bolster" issue, can you explain these things to me? They do seem to be growing in popularity both on gentrified tactical folders, and city knives. What is their function, and why should we put them on our city knives?

Clay Kesting

01-27-2001, 02:49 PM

Carlos,

I'm not really sure about the function of bolsters. Someone more conversant with the the art of traditional knife making would be better placed to answer that part of your question. I find myself torn between the appearance of traditional folders with polished bolsters and wood or bone scales and the superior utility and better blade steels found in modern designs. The Solo models are good examples of knives which are a happy marriage of the two. Why should we have bolsters on our city knives? Being more traditional and less "tactical" looking they may be less likely to cause alarm, especially with pearl or white bone (micarta) scales. I suppose we also get into the area of "male jewellery" here, there are times when I would like to carry something which is a bit fancy and "different". It will be interesting to see the market reaction to the new Benchmade with CF bolsters and wood scales.

Probably I'm just showing my age <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>, these are the knives I grew up with.

Clay

Living your life is a task so difficult, it has never been attempted before.

sal

01-28-2001, 07:44 AM

Carlos. I'd like to stick with the one blade pattern. It's very wide which offers some advantages. There are many things that can be done with swedges though (for eye candy).

Originally, bolsters offered both looks and strength around the pivot area. Technology now provides the strength.

sal

Carlos

01-28-2001, 10:53 AM

Clay,

When your Chinese folder finally arrives you'll be all set for "fancy and different" and in one package. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>

Sal,

Thanks for the techncal explanation. BTW, I used to be a chef, and I still prefer wwwiiiiiidddee blades too. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> So are you thinking of a hollow-grind and swedge for the aluminum Salsa?

Edited by - Carlos on 1/28/2001 10:56:43 AM

sal

01-29-2001, 11:35 AM

Hi Clay. Yes, that's the plan. Opinion? I think I'll start a new thread for the Salsa.

sal

Carlos

01-29-2001, 12:14 PM

Hi Sal,

I can live with a hollow-grind as long as it is is high, and ground very thin. I don't know what kind of a swedge you are thinking about -- a spine swedge like the Calypso Jr/Chinese folder or more of a Police/Native style. For what it is worth I find the spine swedge the least objectionable.

I agree it might be better to have a new Salsa thread.

BTW Sal, did you just call me "Clay?" <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>